#213: Joe Judge: Overcoming the Natural
The natural tendency for all of us is not to do the hard work, not to lead, not to lean into our faith.
Joe Judge wants to help us overcome the natural so that we can live the full life God intended!
https://www.overcomingthenatural.com/
https://www.amazon.com/Leadership-Overcoming-Natural-Maxims-Instinct/dp/1642253502
EP. 213
Tony: [00:00:00] Hey everybody. Welcome back to the Reclamation Podcast, where our goal is to help you reclaim good practices for following Jesus. We haven't met yet. My name is Tony, and I'm your host with over a decade in the local church. I am passionate about helping people follow Jesus through practices, conversation, tools, and dialogue.
We want to help you move closer to Jesus in every aspect of your. Because we know that when you move closer to Jesus, everything changes. Today's conversation is with a new friend of mine, Joe. Judge Joe is a leadership consultant. He's a coach. He wrote an incredible resource called Leadership is Overcoming the Natural.
It's 52 maxims to move beyond instinct and and I really like this idea that we have to get past the natural into something different because it's. Always our natural tendencies that wanna lead us to a great place. This is a [00:01:00] phenomenal book to put in a leader's hand around January one, so that way they could do one maximum a week.
It's super digestible that way. I think you're really gonna enjoy this conversation. Joe has got a great heart. So if this conversation's impactful for you, let us know. We'd love for you to share the episode. Tell somebody else about this important resource. You can also follow me on Instagram at t w Melt.
Tag me on there as you share it. Super appreciative of everyone who does that. It makes such a huge difference getting the word out about what God is doing on this platform. Now, without any further ado, here's my conversation with Joe Judge. Hey everybody. Welcome back to the podcast. I'm excited today to have a author, a ceo, and a coach Joe Judge with us today.
Joe, thank you so much for being on the podcast.
Joe: Oh, thank you Tony. I'm excited to be here with you today.
Tony: Well, I. I ha want to jump into your latest resource. [00:02:00] Leadership is overcoming the natural. But before I do that, I kind of like to get kind of a big picture sense of who people are. So one of the questions that I, I love to ask starting off, is how would you describe the calling that God has placed on your life?
Joe: That is a great question. So I think the, the calling, if I were to describe my calling in life, it is an evolving calling. Hmm. So I, I grew up in a Christian home. Christian family went to church grew up with a pastor that I just loved. He was just an incredible man. And he, he had kids the age of me and, and my siblings, and so our families were fairly close, but he just had a really wonderful way of of making the Bible come alive.
And his name is David Luie and still live, living up in in Virginia from what I understand. And and, and I was just very touched by him on many occasions. And then at the last minute, I went away to a Lutheran college. I was a a blue collar kid.[00:03:00] I thought I'd either work at a restaurant or a gas.
I met my wife in college and one summer just to be closer to her. I worked in a Christian camp and, and I had no other agenda, but I wanted to be able to see her once a week. It was in western New York and she lived in western New York and I lived in Maryland. And so it just it gave me a better chance to see her every week on, on a, on a day off.
And it was at that camp that I just really felt I, I think God's touch on my life in, in a way I hadn't felt it before. And I got back to college that year in, right outside New York City at Lutheran College, and a pastor called up from Connecticut and low and behold, I had had some of his kids in camp that summer and he said, I want you to be a youth director.
And and I said, I don't know how to be a youth director. And he said, I'll teach you how to be a youth director. And his name's Paul Critch. And and Paul was another just wonderful man that had been touched by God. And next thing you know, I'm in seminary and I'm in the Lutheran Church and I'm serving congregations.
And [00:04:00] while I was doing that, I got involved in leadership develop. The church had partnered with Center for Creative Leadership to try to figure out how to help clergy get better. And I think the biggest thing when I went to Center for Creative Leadership for, for the first session was realizing how much I had to learn.
And Wow. And it was, it was overwhelming. And so I began a, a journey to get better honestly, and to learn all of these things. And I've, I've been blessed to have all these role models around me in the church that just people who I, I could look at them and go, I, they, they, they know something I need to know, right?
It's like they, they, they see things I need to see and I just need to get better at at, at, at what I'm doing and how I get through life. And Went through some health issues and then made a transition. I was in a church in Arizona and and, and just made a transition and I feel like my whole life, what God has called me to do is just work with people.
And whether I was in the pulpit on a right in, in the, in the church in front of a congregation or working one on one with folks[00:05:00] I just love helping people figure out really how, how to take their goals and their strategy and their faith and their beliefs and integrate 'em all. And, hmm. I, I, I think for me, Tony, the biggest thing is I.
Somebody years ago sent me a thank you note. It was a group, and they said, thanks for being a beggar, willing to show other beggars where to find bread. And that, that has fit my life. I, I feel like I'm just, my whole life I've been trying to figure out how do I, how do I get better integrated, which is what integrity's all about.
How you find those corners that that, that need to be brought into the, the big picture. And how do you, how do you learn those things that make life more meaningful? And then how do you share 'em with other. . So that, that's, that's really it.
Tony: I, I love that especially the beggar line. What a, what a true statement for, especially for those of us who are trying to follow Jesus.
Yes. One of the things I hear in your story is at various points, you've made some really big moves. I, whether [00:06:00] that's from you know, the East coast to Arizona or from the church world to the to the secular world. How do you discern God's voice in the midst of those kind of big moves?
Joe: So, I, I, so I think there's a, a part of life that is hard and it's a good, hard.
Right. When, when you're going through grief with somebody who is, who is dying, that's a good, hard to go through, right? It's like, yeah, you, you know, you're in the right heart. It's tough. It's, it's heart wrenching. It's it, it's painful, but you're at the right place. I think there's also times in life when you're going through something that's hard, but you know, it's not the right.
If that makes sense. And yeah. And, and you just know that it, it's just not where you're supposed to be right now. And, and that's what makes it hard. And so I, I think God makes that, that spot I think obvious over a period of time, I think through prayer, [00:07:00] reflections, self-awareness, what, whatever it might be.
And you know, I, I think for me the, the key spots for transition is where do I just not fit? Right. Where, where does it just feel like I just don't fit for, not, not for reasons of not wanting to, or not for reasons of, you know, arrogance or selfishness, but you just feel like you just don't fit there anymore.
And it's kind of where the, where the Bible talks about, you know, you kind of dust the the dirt off your shoes and you move to the next place. And I dunno, I've always looked at life as as something, we live in chapters and, and I think we need to pay attention to where a chapter is ending so the new chapter can begin if that makes.
Tony: Perfect sense. As I hear you talk about this, I'm thinking about moments for my own life. And one of the things I'm curious about is you, you've probably heard that old adage that the grass is always greener on the other side, or, or kind of the flip side to that is the grass is greener where you water it.
How do [00:08:00] you know? Kind of if the hard that you're in is a hard, you know, if, if you don't fit right, So I, you're saying that I don't fit anymore. Maybe you've got that feeling. How do you know when it's time to buckle down and make it fit, right? Like shift the current setting you're in, or do you just leave completely?
Joe: Yeah. So transitions are not quick. Right. not That's great. And I, I think I literally made the transition from the, from the pulpit to the office, so to speak as working with folks in the business world. That transition took me 10 years. Wow. Yeah. I mean, it, it was not a, it was not one of these things that you wake up and go, Okay, I don't like this anymore.
I'm gonna do something different. It was right. You, you start to spend a little bit of time figuring out, what do I need to learn? What do I need to do? How do I, how do I test the waters? How do I practice? How do I get the right kind of mentors and role models? How am I listening to enough people so that the message that God [00:09:00] is putting out there is valid?
I think sometimes it's too easy to say this is what God's saying, right? And, and we don't validate it. And I think it takes time and it's messy. And I think that's why I've spent my life in transitions, whether it was I, I worked in churches with transitions where they were either building new or they were trying to get out of a mess that they were in and go into a new, new chapter of life.
And with companies I love transitions just messy. And I, I love playing in a messy. Cool.
Tony: There's probably somebody listening right now who's in the middle of the transition and it feels like you're reading their mail. Oh, right. What's, what's one thing that you recommend if someone's in the middle of a messy transition and feels like they're barely keeping their head above water?
What's a, what's a simple. So may, maybe it's one of the, the maximums from the book, but may, you know, kind of how do we, how do we survive in the midst of a season that feels like it's drowning us? Got
Joe: it. That, that's a great question. So there's, there's a hundred right answers to every question [00:10:00] first, right?
So I, I never believe I have the right answer. I just, I I have answers that I've learned work, right? But, but but there's a hundred other options out there, which is, so it's always a little bit tricky. When we're going through a transit. I think the most important thing to keep in mind is that there's three natural ways to go through transition, and the, the first way is we revert back.
And, and you know, the, the painful part of that is that's why there's been so many stories of people in just really bad situations and they try to leave and they go back to the bad situation because there's comfort in the known rather than the. And, and human nature is to revert back and to constantly go back.
The problem is where you left doesn't exist anymore. It's changed. Right, Right. And so you can't, And so there's a fallacy in trying to go back, but a lot of people really do. The status quo was all about reverting back a another natural way that people go through transitions, they go off the rail. Right.
They just throw their values and their [00:11:00] morals and their beliefs and everything else, and they just go the heck with it. They just go off the rails. The healthy way to go through a transition, one of the healthy ways is you create a picture of what is it you really feel you're, you're moving towards, You have to have some idea.
It's, it's, now, the truth is it's never gonna be what you think it is, but there has to be something that moves you forward, right? You've gotta have a sense of what it could be, and, and then it's figuring out what values are essential to your life and how do you. Towards those values every day in a way that keeps them aligned as you're looking for that new beginning, that new picture.
Now where, where chaos is so painful and scary, it can also be exciting because God created outta chaos, right? And, and we often see chaos as a negative, but chaos is a sign of something new. On the other side, it's do you have the faith? Do you have the courage? You have the belief. Do you have the will? To walk towards that other side, to get through that, that chaos.
And it always leads to a new beginning. It's just usually not exactly what we [00:12:00] think it'll be, but there's always a new beginning on the other side of that.
Tony: So you, you're a little bit further along in life than I am. You've got a little bit more Thank you seasons under your belt and, and listen, I think it's super important.
Be intentional about acknowledging like, that's, that's just true and it's good. It is. I, you mentioned something in that answer that I want to drill down on a little bit. It's, it's, you know, what values do you hold? So in, in light of this kind of transition talk and the different seasons that you've been in in life, how often have you shifted your personal values?
Do you shift your personal values and, and. You know, is there, do you have like, Okay, it's January, it's time to reassess my values kind of practice? Or is there a normal practice or rhythm that you put into that?
Joe: So, so values are a great topic that we could spend hours on because it's, it's a topic that is described so many [00:13:00] various ways, right?
And has so many different understandings to it. I believe that as our life changes, our values have the opportunity to change. And that what is really important at times is to take stock of where you are, what's working and what's not working for you anymore. So I'll give you an example. I have a really strong value around independence.
I was raised to be independent. . Right. And I, I think it has served me well as, as a pastor, there's a, there's a sense of truly being independent. At times, you're, you lead a congregation, you're part of the congregation, but in some aspects, you're not part of the congregation, right? They don't see, they see you differently.
And, and if you're trying to please everybody, you're gonna be miserable, right? And so how, how you stay independent with God and the calling and, and where you are, and that independence can work really well, but it can also become a real problem. With family, Right. And with friendships and with teams. And so interdependence is also a strong value.
[00:14:00] Independence and interdependence can really seem in opposition to each other. Right? Hmm. And, and they don't have to be, I think what we have to be able to do is say, What time in my life is independence appropriate? And what, what periods is it appropriate and, and what moments is it appropriate and where's it not app?
Right, And so, so how do I, how do I shift and move? I think as we go through life, there's a couple of questions that we can ask ourselves around values is, which value is causing me the most stress right now? and people don't often talk about stress and values. My highest value for years was responsibility.
And responsibility can really seem kind of wholly and sanctimonious and self righteous. Right? And, and is a feel good part of it. But it can be a real burden if you overdo it and you can overdo values. Sure. And, and if you're not careful, it can become very judgmental. Where, where you can, I, I could look at the mirror and go, Well, I'm.
Being responsible because they're not right. It's, there's this holier than now [00:15:00] kind of a thing. But, but, but I think when a value becomes a burden to the, to the point of it, it's, it's just becoming uncomfortable and, and harder and, and more difficult. And there's a little bit of internal resentment that can build up when you overdo a value, right?
I think it's time to say, How do I back that off a little bit? How do I back that off? Right? And and, and for. One of the biggest things in life was moving responsibility from my number one value down to my number three value. Right? It was like it didn't have to lead the way anymore. How could I Now it was still near the top.
It was still important. You're right. I didn't go off the rails with it, but how do I just let it down and, and if you do that to drop it down a little bit and then I had to raise something else. . Right. And, and that for me, what, what became more and more important, the, the odor I got. I think a little bit maturity sits in right?
You start to look at things a little bit differently. You know, you know, I I think Carl Young talks about moving from the age of the ego to the soul, [00:16:00] right? And you do that. Interdependence and family became, It's like I, I, the being able to look at the people in your life around you and say, they're capable of being responsible for themselves.
I don't need to take on something for them anymore. Right. It's, the fear kind of gets put aside. And so I think there are times where you look and say, what's a burden? And then the other time is when you look at it and say, If I added a value that would really add joy and pleasure to my life, what would.
And, and for me, the more I add creativity, the happier my life is. Cause I love being creative, right? And so I think you'll, you'll look at where you are, you take inventory and you say, what's a burden? What's missing? And, and that's where you allow your, your values to evolve. As a side note, it's really important for parents, I think, who are raising, especially teenagers and young adults, to realize your kids' values will change as well.
Don't, don't freak because they hold something as value right now that you don't give 'em a few years. And [00:17:00] my guess is they, they might likely shift that a little bit and, and so we don't have to, right? It's kinda like when my first child was born, I felt like, Oh no, everything she did, this is gonna be the rest of her life.
By the time your third child comes along, you go, ah, it's just a stage.
Tony: Do you have a, a set list of values that you've committed to memory for your life in this season? Would you mind sharing them? I, I, you kind of alluded to a couple, but I would, I would love to hear the whole list. I'm sure everyone's thinking about their values right now, just like I am so, so.
Joe: So faith is a very strong value for me.
And you know, I, I, I believe this world is bigger than me. I, I believe God has a purpose. I, I take a lot of comfort in that because I, you know what? Been known to tell people, which sounds flippant, and it's not meant to be as I've read the book and it ends okay. Right. It's like, so, No, that's right.
It's kind of like, you know, you go to a scary movie and if you already know the ending, it's not scary anymore. Right. And so I really just believe my life's in [00:18:00] God's hands and he's gonna take care of it, and it's gonna be okay. Not always gonna be easy, right? Not always gonna be what I want, but it's, it's gonna be okay.
And I just, and, and that gives me tremendous sense of peace where, where that anxiety doesn't get outta. Right. As I look ahead family, which is what I call interdependence is so important for me. I am so aware that my motivation in life comes from my faith in my family. It, it just, it drives me. I, I look at where my life was and where my life is.
And I mean, no disrespect. I, I'd be living in a double wide, on an acre land somewhere, and I paid attention to much. Sure. You know, it's, if it were just me, it's but, but getting married and making that commitment, and I've been married for 42 years and I remember holding my first child, my, my oldest daughter, and it just scared the heck outta me in terms of it's time to grow.
Right. It's time to time to make sure you're taking care of these people. And and my next two children just reinforce that. And, and so try trying to model for them what, what faith is about and [00:19:00] what life's about and how, how we can, how we can learn and grow and apologize and, and right. Get, get closer to the people we're supposed to be is important.
Learning has been just absolutely essential. And I'm, you know, I, I, I feel like I did not start to study till I hit. And and it was Grace that got me through that because I thought I was gonna run a gas station or something, right? So I was, did have to do a lot of studying back then. And and, and so I feel like I've been catching up my whole life and I love to learn.
And so you know, that, that's a real value for me. Responsibility is still an important value for me in terms of, I wanna make sure I'm being responsible for the things that, that God wants me to be responsible for. I think he puts people in our lives that. And then the question is, did we help him?
Right? And, and, and are we doing those things? And then the last one for me is creativity. And, and that is you know, what is out there that we're not seeing, that if we look differently, we might be able to see because most things are not all that hard to figure out. We just need a [00:20:00] creative approach to find a solution.
So those are really my core values.
Tony: Hey guys, just pausing this conversation with Joe to remind you about the Spirit and Truth Conference coming up in March 9th through 11th here in Dayton, Ohio. We are gonna have an incredible weekend of life giving. Talks, worship and community. For more information and to get signed up, go to Spirit and truth.life/conference.
And for all of you podcast listeners, special promo code, enter the code. Podcast to save $30 off your registration. That's $30 off your registration to the Spirit and Truth Conference 2023. I can't wait for you to see you guys there and to get connected. Now let's finish up this conversation with Joe. I love it.
And, and I think it's the core values that really are great transition to this, this resource that you've put out into the world[00:21:00] in, in the introduction of the book and kind of the. , the story behind the book. You talk about meeting Mike and how hesitant you were to even undertake this project. Yes.
I'm wondering if you might tell my my podcast family, what, what transpired between you and this guy and how this book, which is not like for those of you watching on YouTube, this is not like, it's not a thin book. This is a, this was an undertaking. This was not this is 52. Maximums. To leadership.
So this, this was a, this was a process. How, how did you really get started on this journey and, and with Mike specifically?
Joe: So, so to, to, to go back there, there's a part of, I think being a pastor in a church and speaking in front of people that, that's, that's touching and humbling at the same time. But you'd take it for what it is where people come up and say, Oh, you should write something, you should write this down.
Right? And you've heard that in your [00:22:00] life, right? People say, you say something and go, and. You know, for me it was always this sense of, I think God spoke to 'em and they might have heard something that I might not even have said. So I just never took that seriously. Right. It's like, and then I started doing consulting and I'd work with groups and they go, You oughta write this down.
I'd be like, Boy, my insecurity was this. I'd like, No, thank you, thank you. But no thank you. And then over the years I had a couple of people who said, Let's write a book together. And I was like, And what happened is I'd get busy like life gets, and I wouldn't put the time in it. Because I was scared. And so I'd let him down.
And so I'd be like, I am not ever gonna, I'm just this stu, I'm not going to even think about this. And I met Mike out in San Diego. I was speaking to a group and he was part of the group, and he came up afterwards and said, You need to write a book. He said, You oughta have a book. And I said, Thanks.
But it's like, I just, he heard something, I didn't even necessarily say it. Mm-hmm. . And he was very persistent. And he, he emailed a few times and. And at one point we got on a call and I said like, Like what? Right? I mean, like he [00:23:00] said, You oughta write like, what? And, and he, he, he had taken notes, which, which in, in and of itself was humbling that somebody would actually write something down that you said, and he went through many of what the maxims are and he said, You said all of these things.
And he said there's probably more behind them to unpack for people because you, you make 'em sound easy. And come to find out, Mike is a genius, the co-author on the book I mean, he is, and I don't use that word lightly. He has four or five graduate degrees. I mean, he's, he's a, he is a student student.
So he went to an Ivy League school. He went to a Dartmouth in New Hampshire. He got out, he was a journalist for a newspaper. Then he wakes up and decides to become a medical. Right. And why not, right? Why, why not? And but he loves your right, and he's a medical doctor. He was a chief medical officer. He I think he has two masters in social work degrees.
He has an MBA from business. I mean, he has a Right. Where do you find a doctor that has an md, an mba, two mss, right? It's like, [00:24:00] and, and the guy's memory is just amazing and. I, I think what we shared in comments, we both love to read, but he retains it, right? I, I don't, I don't retain at all. I'm just, I learn and I get little snippets, but he, his memory and so he, he just made a promise.
He said, I'll get you through it. And there's something about Mike that is just so endearing is the right word. He's just a special guy. And so we set up a process and for three years, we spent every Saturday morning at eight. On a call and we'd pick the topic and I think through the topic all week.
And then we'd get on a call at eight o'clock on Saturday morning and I would talk and he would type and then he would adjust and change and we'd talk it over, right? And so it took us three years to get through that, and then it took us a year to get through the editing process. But I'm so aware that I would not have done this without Mike Sel and insight and and, and he added a lot of richness to it along the way which was really special.
But It took God, putting somebody like Mike in my life, or this would not have happened. . [00:25:00]
Tony: Yeah. I, I love those kind of catalyst people in our lives. I think they're crucial and when you find them, you gotta hold onto 'em. One of the premises of the book that I really wanted to, you know, kind of the underlying thesis is this idea that leadership is not natural.
Right? Right. Leadership is, is a process and it's, it's something that is kind of developed and the maxims are kind of how you could develop as a. It is kind of the way I'm interpreting everything, and correct me if I'm wrong, but how, how do we, how did you come to that conclusion? Because so often I feel like we hear, Oh, he's a natural born leader, or she's a natural born leader.
And kind of what you're saying is, is like our natural position is not leadership. Right. Can you kind of expound on that idea? So, So
Joe: I can, So I think it's a, it's a just a, a filter. I've looked at life. To be honest, and so I, I take people back to the beginning. There was a garden and there [00:26:00] was a man and a woman in the garden, and everything was perfect and wonderful and whole and holy and right, and, and, and euphoric.
And they had everything in the world they could possibly want, right? No. No. Nothing was, There was no negative in their world. And then all of a sudden this voice comes in and the voice comes in and says, Right, but you could know. Right. Yeah. You could know more. Which really, and, and this struck me during Covid where, where I was able to solidify this in my mind, I'd never, for years in, in reading that I never had caught onto the idea that you could know more is really the root of you're not enough.
Wow. Right. Which is powerful because we all live with, you're not enough. And even in the midst of having everyth. What did they do? They compare themselves to God and they said, Oh, I could have more. I'm not enough. Right. I'm inadequate even in perfection. And, and there's something tragic to that, but that's, that's, [00:27:00] that's the essence of human nature to me.
That's the essence. That's where it all just hits the, the, the fan right there. And so what happened? They grabbed it and now they got thrown outta the garden. And now this perfect world, they were not in anymore. They were not allowed in it. Right. They were, they were put out swords of flames were put at the gate.
There were guards that were like, You're never going back in there. The powerful insight for me is we're all born this side of the garden. Yeah. All of us. Right? We're all, and, and so what we tend to do is we tend to look at other people and see their flaws, but we don't see. Right now, what does it mean to be born on this side of the garden?
It means perfection does not exist in our world. It's a fallacy. And so to all the perfectionists out there, I feel your pain, but it's not gonna happen. Right? You're just, you're not gonna, it's not gonna be perfect this world, right? It's, it's just not gonna be. What we don't understand with that is that the nature we were designed to have was changed in that.
And, and so our, our nature [00:28:00] is no longer perfect, and so it is flawed. Our instincts are not trustworthy as they should be. Right. It's, it's, And people talk about I trust my instincts. Well, sometimes you're right, but sometimes you're not. Right. Right, right. And so, you know, in, in the church we talk about natural man, right.
It, it's, Yeah. And that's, that's our imperfect being and, and so, . If, if we look at the fact that we're born this side of the garden, right? For me, what, what really becomes significant is how does my imperfection affect my, my relationship with my wife? How does it affect my relationship with my kids, with my friends, with my family?
But also as you walk into a leadership role, understand that you're coming in there with, with an imperfect filter in place, right? And, and that, that your instincts and, and your, your natural reactions to things are not the ones that we were designed to have. In the, in the first place, the result of the fall, if that makes sense.
Mm. And so where I have seen [00:29:00] leaders and, and you know, all I've, I feel like all I've done my whole life is work with people and and the same people in the church were leading companies. Right? It's so, it's, it's all the same stuff. It's all intermixed, but, you know, we, it, it was really focused on watching this natural behavior play out and understanding that, wait a minute, that natural.
Just doesn't work. It, it's not what we want from a leader, right? It's not what we want from a husband or a father, right? We, we want people to hit that pause button and to think about, Okay, here's my instinct. What's a better reaction? And so that's really where overcoming the natural. I've, I've actually, I've seen so much pain and heartbreak over people following their natural reaction.
And, and we take it for granted that it, that it's good when maybe we ought to revisit and go, Ah, maybe there's a better one.
Tony: Yeah. So I come from a Wesleyan theological background and you know, the Holiness movement that's a part of our tradition is so, one of my mentors [00:30:00] to use a term that use in the book, one of the people in my cabinet, he would say that this is the epistemic consequence of sin.
Yep. Right? That it's the, the very natural kind of, it's a super churchy word, but what he's really saying is, Hey, everything that's wrong is kind of a result of that kind of being on this side of the garden, as you so eloquently put it. I, I noticed that, that most of what the book about is not really about leading a team or leading an office or leading a church in, in my case or a nonprofit.
It's really about leading yourself. It is, it is. How much, how much of, of. Of what you've realized over the, the years is about, man, if I, I just need to wrestle with the person in the mirror.
Joe: A hundred percent is, is what it is now. Right? It's a, you know, it, it's, you know, again, I think it is easy to look out.
And I think that's, that literally, that's part of the whole problem, right? It's like if, if Adam and [00:31:00] Eve on the right side of the garden would've looked inward instead of looking out, they would've stayed on the right side of the garden. Right? But they, they didn't, They, they looked out. And for me, what what I talk about is the the, the, the reality of the common denominator theory.
And, and when I look at my life, right, I can either acknowledge that I'm the only one who is present for every screw up in my. Right, right. , or it was a grand conspiracy theory that the world orchestrated right to make me a victim and I don't buy the victim part of it. And so, Sure, I've always been present for every mistake, and so I, Why, why would I look outside to say who's causing this instead of look inside and say, What do I need to learn?
And, and I think. , you know, for, for me, if, if I, as, as I put the book together with Mike, and as we work through it and as I was wrestling with these thoughts, I mean, I've had so many conversations with CEOs who said, Why do, why does this matter? And I said, Because you claim to be a person of faith. Right?
That's why it matters. Right? It's it, it, [00:32:00] it because you say this is what you believe in. And, and for us as Christians, it, you know, we talk about what does that mean? What does that look like? And it, and it's pretty nebulous at times, right? Well, I'm a Christian. My life should look different. And I really think in in, and I don't wanna overstate this by any means, but these 52 maximums give you a pretty good idea of what it looks like if we put faith into our lives and say, Okay, God deserves better.
The people around us deserve better if my life is different because of who I am and what I believe. Because the first thing that came out of the garden was selfish. Right. Yeah. And, and most of these things are about overcoming that selfishness, that insecurity, that fear Right, that natural instinct of depending on yourself and saying, Okay, how do I, how do I, how do I involve other people in a way that's more respectful, that's more honorable, That's, that's more pleasing.
And, and I think that's what we're supposed to do as people. [00:33:00]
Tony: I. One of the things that is so interesting about this topic is leadership is a word that comes with a lot of cultural baggage. It does. Right. And, and when I think of leadership, I, I think of, you know, I tend to think of Jesus, of course, and, and then Pat and Rosa Parks and all of those leaders are so different.
you know? And yet there's probably somebody's who's listening right now who's, who's, maybe they're on the lawnmower or on the treadmill and they're discounting themselves saying, Ah, man, I just, I don't know that this applies to me because I'm not a leader. I'm wondering if you can speak to that person about leadership.
Joe: Yeah. The, the reality is, if, if I were to define leadership, which is risky because we say in the beginning of the book, you can't, Right? Yeah. . But, but I could put a couple of things together around it. For me, in essence of leadership is [00:34:00] are you moving forward and are you bringing people with you? Are you bringing people together as you move forward?
And so in, in a family, right? Just, just to take it at that level. As, as a person in the family, as you're moving your family forward, are, are they coming with you because they see it, they understand it, they trust you, they believe you. They, they understand that that this is a logical, intentional step that you're taking, or are you doing it on your own and leaving them behind?
Right. That's not, that's not leadership. As we look at our own life I, I, I have this thing that I talk to folks about is the 3% principle. And I say every year I think we're supposed to get 3%. , right? And so what does that mean? Identify the one thing in your life that's tripping you up. And it's, it feels big at times, but it's not always that big.
And work on one thing at a time so that we get better. So as we go through our life and say, We're, we're making some progress right now. And, and that's really where leadership starts. And as we. As we work on leading our own life, as we work on leading our family and, and our friends, I, I think [00:35:00] what, what happens is that that naturally can evolve.
Where even without us being aware, there's people who are looking at us and paying attention and, and saying, They, they, they have something there, right? They're, they're seeing something. And and so it's not positional at times as much as it is internal.
Tony: That's good. As, as this book begins to kind of leak out into the world and it gets into the hands and more and more people my podcast family loves to pray, and I'm wondering, what's the prayer that you would associate with this book as it goes out into the world?
How can we pray along with you?
Joe: So I think our world I don't think I, I'm, I'm convinced our world right now, As broken and divided as as we've ever seen it at least in a long, long time. And looking through history. I mean, it's Civil War was obviously a time like that. I mean, but there, there's, there's been times where, [00:36:00] you know, we, we, we've gone through a lot as a society, but the, the, where we're not a we society right now, we're more of a me.
and, and, and there's that self-focused, self-centeredness that, that we're seeing honestly believe our leaders today our political leaders just be candid. I, I, I think, yeah, they're, they're following the natural and that's why both parties, right? They're just follow the natural and and we, and we see political leaders do things today that we never could imagine our own kids.
Right. It's like we, boy, we would sit there and we'd, we'd sit 'em down and have a conversation, right? It's like, be, because it's just ugly and it's nasty and there's people rallying behind it and, and I think the prayer would be that people would stop and think and hit that pause button and go, Wait a minute, this isn't leadership.
Right. This is the opposite because it's dividing people, not uniting people, and it's not not showing us a better way. It's showing us a worse way. And, you know, the book doesn't have any answers in it. It just has things to [00:37:00] think about. Right? Just think about these things and, and I, I, I guess my prayer today would be that we understand that these things are worth thinking about and, and they're worth thinking about in terms of not what other people are doing that we can point fingers at.
But what am I. And am I starting to model behavior in a way that is more aligned with what God talks about, right? And in, in honoring God and honoring our neighbor through our behavior. Is it respectful? Is it curious? Is is it open in a way that we can engage in listening conversations that don't have to be right or wrong, but maybe just from a point of growth and under.
And that, that's really, I just, my, my heart breaks from where we're at today because I, I wish we'd see leaders who would hit the pause button.
Tony: Amen. Amen. One, one of the things I appreciate about the way that you've put together this resource is that it's got, it's got space for application and [00:38:00] notes, and it's not just a.
I mean, I think the intent is so that it's not just a reading book, it's an application book and, and 52 maxims. Obviously that's, that's one a week if you're brave enough to embark on one a week and, you know, so I think all that's beautiful. I, I have one more question for you. Okay. But before I ask it, I know that my.
Listeners are gonna wanna find a way to learn more about you and what God's doing in you and through you. And where can they pick up a copy of the book? How do they, how do they find you on the internet?
Joe: Yeah, so the, we, we have just started a website called Leadership is Overcoming That is is the, the website's called Overcoming the Natural which we're gonna be putting a blog on and, and continuing.
The book is available on Amazon. And so it, it, it's audiobook and Kindle. And paperback.
Tony: Did you read the book?
Joe: I did not for the audio book. I did not. I was too scared to do that.
Tony: Listen, you've got a great voice, Joe. I think that you should consider a podcast career.
Joe: You know, I, [00:39:00] it, it's. Probably we'll pray about it.
It would probably take 40 years. Like the book took
you know, to, to do that.
Tony: But you know, I'm sorry, Interrupted. Overcoming the natural. Will that be.com?
Joe: It is. And Okay. And, and, and it's on Amazon. And we're, we're on Instagram. Overcoming the natural. We're, we're just trying to figure out, I've never been on social.
Tony: And so I, I, I know I looked for you all over social media and
Joe: I couldn't find you at all.
I just never thought my wife was that interesting, you know, to, to put it out there and Sure. So, so we're looking at it right now, but the book is available on Amazon and I'm, I just, you know, it, it's just food for thought for people. Yeah.
Tony: Amen. Amen. Okay, last question. I love to ask people, it's an advice question and I ask you to go back in time and give yourself one piece of advice, except I get to name the season of life that you're in.
Okay? And so I wanna take you back to your very [00:40:00] first day as a youth director. You just finished the day you got all the orientation, you've basically been sprayed, probably feels like you've been sprayed with a fire hose the whole day. If you could sit down and, and sit, need a knee with that younger version of yourself, that young man with so much life and transition ahead of him, what's the one thing that you're gonna tell 'em?
Joe: Oh wow, that's.
I think the one thing that I would tell, tell that person today, and it was the, it was the biggest struggle was the idea that God loves you, just like you are not, not because of what you're gonna do. Hmm. And it was, it was, I, I think there was a natural part of me in church work that was trying to earn some of that Yeah.
You know? And, and transitioning from that role into a different role was dramatic. Right. And [00:41:00] really wrestling with the idea of, am I good enough and does God make that good enough and is he at peace with right? And, and the, the concept of joyful acceptance for me with God is really key. But it was a long journey getting there.
Right. I think subconsciously I, I believed I could earn it somehow. Yeah. And I. And and, and I, so I think, I think that started me on a journey because all my insecurity, all my fear, all my anxiety showed up that first day as a youth director, right? sure. What next, what am I gonna do? And then you go to seminary and it just gets bigger and bigger and.
You just stand up in a moment and go, Boy, if they only knew how unworthy I was to be up here, . Right. So I would tell 'em, I would tell 'em I was unworthy all the time. I was like, you know, But it I think just that, that whole idea of that that unconditional love that's not earned or deserved is just given that what Grace is [00:42:00] all about.
And that's a, that's a great question you asked, but that would, that would be the message that young man needed to hear the most.
Tony: Joe, thank you so much for the time today. Thank you for being so generous with your heart for this resource. Man, I'm, I'm thankful for our connection.
Joe: Thank you, Tony.
Thank you for making this such a, such a great dialogue, man.
Tony: I absolutely love that conversation with Joe. I think he's got such a heart. For leaders and for wisdom, and I think it's important for all of us in the church world to pay attention to the type of leaders we present ourself as. Do me a favor, pick up a copy of Joe's latest book.
It's a great Christmas gift. Leadership is overcoming the natural 52 Maxims to Move Beyond Instinct. I'll have a link in the show notes. I'm super thankful for his time today and if you have any feedback for me, I'd love to. On Instagram at t w Melt, t wm I lt. Guys, I'm super thankful that we can continue to build this community [00:43:00] together and if there's anything I can do to help you, let me know.
We're in this together. And remember, if you wanna follow Jesus, you must be willing to move.
