#199: Katie Allred: Building an Online Community
If the last two years have taught us anything, it's this: You aren't meant to do life alone.
Katie Allred and I sit down to talk about church communications, building an online community, and how following Jesus is a team sport no matter where you live!
www.twmilt.com/episodes (full transcripts)
Links:
https://www.facebook.com/katiejallred/
https://www.instagram.com/katiejallred/
EP. 199
Tony: [00:00:00] Hey everybody. Welcome back to the Reclamation Podcast, where our goal is to help you reclaim good practices for following Jesus. Today is episode 199. If we haven't met yet, my name is Tony and I'm your host with over a decade in the local church. I'm deeply passionate about helping you move closer to.
In practice in today's conversation, I believe is really gonna help you do. I sit down with communication expert, Katie Aldrin. Katie has a brand new book out about church communications, but it's so much bigger than that. It's about how we show up in the church. It's about the messaging of it all. I think you're really gonna enjoy this conversation with Katie.
She's got a great voice that I know is gonna resonate with so many. Hey, and if it does resonate, do me a favor hit that subscribe button, where every you listen to podcasts and every time you subscribe, you get all the free content that [00:01:00] comes every single week. Also share this episode with a friend that's the highest compliment you can give us sharing.
This episode really helps spread the word about what God is doing on this platform. I'm so thankful for each and every one of you. Also I said it was episode 1 99. That means 200 is coming out later this week. I love, love, love to give away some free Starbucks to our friends and the podcast world. So do me a favor.
Follow me on Instagram at T w mil at T w M I L T. And I'll be putting out some free Starbucks this week as a way to say thank you for being with me. 200 shows. I just can't even believe it. Time. Absolutely flies. All right. Now, without any further ado, here's my conversation with communication expert, Katie alri.
Hey everybody. Welcome back to the podcast. I'm so excited to have Katie here with us today. She's an author, [00:02:00] a speaker. She works in the tech field. She teaches she does everything. Katie. Thanks for being here today.
Katie: Thanks for having me, Tony. I appreciate.
Tony: So I love to start by thinking about the big picture and mm-hmm one of the questions I love to ask people is how they would define their call.
So if you think about all the things that you do, how would you define what God has called you to in the world? Okay.
Katie: So funny. I remember being very young and being very confused about my C. and saying, believing that my calling was preaching, because that was the only thing I saw done in the church. And so, but I'm not like a shepherd teacher, like I'm definitely the apostle prophet evangelist, like, you know, there's all these other tools and sure.
And we often don't talk about that. And so. I remember just being, because I, I mean, I was raised Southern Baptist, still Southern Baptist. And so we, we don't really talk about those other gifts. Right. A lot of times, and also [00:03:00] being a woman, like, you know, sometimes that can be difficult too, in the ministry space.
So I remember thinking like maybe my calling's preaching and then like asking if that was, you know, even like a legitimate calling for me and being. That I couldn't now I don't believe that anymore necessarily. And I, obviously everybody has their own belief system around that, but I was like, okay, God, if this isn't it, then what is it?
I need you to show it to me. And just being very like, adamant that I wanted to know what God was calling me to at a very young age. So I was probably 12 when I was really. Trying my best to like figure out what was God wanting me to do with my life. And I, at the same time I was developing websites and I loved graphic design and I loved just online community, even though I didn't know what that was at the time.
Yeah. It wasn't defined digital marketing. Wasn't a thing yet. In 2002 ish, you know, when I was thinking about all these things, like all this is [00:04:00] very, really new. And so at the same time I was doing a I was leading Harry Potter forum online and which is kind of funny. A lot of people are like, Harry Potter I loved Harry Potter.
I was a kid and nobody else sure about it in my community. Cause you know it was radical maybe a little bit at the time. But I really enjoyed it. It was something I, I was really passionate about as a kid. And so I am every parent's worst nightmare. I went online trying to find friends and I found like 5,000 of.
In this forum that I created in this community that I created online through, it's funny, kind of through an Australian Harry Potter fan site, which is really fun. Right. So it was an
Tony: oh, that checks out. Yeah, of course.
Katie: It was an international thing. It was, I was internationally working with a distributed team in 2002 as a 12 year old.
So yeah, it was quite, oh, that's awesome. Yeah, for me and, and my calling, because that played a pivotal role because that's when I realized, like, these are real people like [00:05:00] behind these screens. And I really loved them and I really cared. They were my friends just as much as my friends in real life. And it's so funny cuz a lot, I think a lot of people imagine I was a kid behind a screen 24 7 and I had no social.
I was also president of every club in my high school when I graduated. So here that today I had a school and very fulfilling. Social life outside of the internet, but at the same time, I had friends from the internet that I loved and cared about and prayed for and wanted them to come to know Christ too.
And so actually that's part of the first chapter of this book that I wrote was just about like, why, why I was called is I felt from a very early age that, you know, I wanted to share the gospel through technology, whatever that means. And that's what I've kind of been doing ever since is figuring out new ways that we could share the gospel and create community that matters and help people feel not so alone.
And mm-hmm can feel connected and have a sense of belonging and, and all those things, because they're really important. Like life change happens in the context of [00:06:00] relationship. If we don't have relationships with people, we cannot lead them to Christ.
Tony: Yeah. That. I love that. I was, I, you were preaching right there to me. I was I'm here for all of it. I was getting ready past the offering plate.
Katie: But I'm not a preacher. So.
Tony: Okay. So I know that we're, we're gonna jump into church communications today. That's your latest resource out, and we're gonna talk about all of that and there's somebody listening right now. Who's on the treadmill or on the elliptical, who is. Tony, Katie. Like that sounds great, but I'm not really, I, you know, I'm not in church leadership.
I am just an average every day person, person. Who's barely making it to church. I'm going, I'm going 1.6 times a month. You know, like, I, I, when I'm not there, I catch most of the message online, but I fast forward through the worship and you know, these are my people, right? So. I'm hoping that you could tell them why they should [00:07:00] care about church communications when they don't work for nor do they ever have any intention of working for a church.
Katie: Okay. Excellent. Actually, I really love this question. Never been asked this question and it's something I think I'm super passionate about is the normal average member in a church who goes once a month, like typically yeah. Like you have the best position to share the gospel. More than anyone probably at more than the pastor does.
Okay. Because like a pastor, they have to earn the respect of all these people. You have earned the respect in friendship of so many people that don't even know that you follow Christ. Right. So how do we, like, how do we use your, like your life as a ministry online is the next question that I wanna pose.
So like, when I think about like the average churchgoer, I think about like my mom. Okay. So, you know, my mom goes to church maybe once, once a month as [00:08:00] well. And she, you know, was super involved at one point in her life and has less been less, you know, involved in, in her retirement. But I think about like the fact that she has so many friends online, every time she posts, she gets.
40 50 likes people, comment, people are interested in what she's doing in her life. And that's the same for everyone across the board. Like everybody's interested in what you personally are doing. That's like the whole point of social media. It is social. It is a conversation. And so how can we encourage more conversations in our churches?
I used to tell people. it'd be great. If from the pulpit, we could encourage our congregants to like, share the gospel online, but how do we do that without just being weird and hokey? Right. So cuz like it's almost like being on the street corner yelling again, or like passing out a track like, and I just, that's not relational.
Okay. At the end of the day, it's just not. Yeah. And so what I want to see more of [00:09:00] is literally just asking the question, what can I be praying for you? That's it. Just ask it more frequently, ask it on your just Facebook wall, ask it when you tweet, ask it on Instagram. Send it in DMS, you know, like send it as a direct message to people and be consistent about it and follow up and actually write out your prayer for them.
Not because you're being show off, but because Jesus model prayer for us, and I think we should model prayer for others. So, because they're gonna read that prayer and they're gonna read it over the. You know, and a lot of times they don't know what to pray, but seeing what other people have prayed helps them understand like what they can be praying for.
Right. I don't think it's a show off thing. I think it's really a personal thing. I think, you know, I think we've really lost the PA like not lost the power of prayer, but like. It is so incredibly powerful and it's so incredibly relational, like God gave us this gift to talk to him so we can be in relationship with [00:10:00] him, but also so that we can be in relationship with others.
Right. And talk to him about what other people need and bring to him, those requests as well. I think it's such a powerful thing to think about communities praying for one another. And how can we encourage more? I think, you know, prayer is the primary strategy for sharing the gospel. So how do we increase.
Tony: Yeah, I love that answer. And I, I think, I think people are always generally surprised when they post, how can I pray for you and all the number of responses that they will get? Mm-hmm
Katie: people will come out with the woodwork for it. I've had people contact me that haven't seen since kindergarten to ask for prior after I post it.
Now here's the thing. If you're not posting it, people aren't gonna straight up. Just tell. What they, what they be like, they're not gonna just, they're waiting, they're waiting for the invitation, right? Like, just to tell someone like something hard that they're going through and they don't have, maybe anyone loneliness is like an epidemic right now.
I mean, it could be its own pandemic outside [00:11:00] of the pandemic. Cause like, I think it was like one in four people were lonely before the pandemic, like Cigna had done a study that one in four people like didn't have someone that they felt that they could talk to. Like personally, like really connect. Is that not the saddest thing that has?
I mean, yeah, it should be breaking our hearts here in the north American church to think that there are people in our communities that feel like they have absolutely no one, they can turn to
Tony: you. I so help us develop a inappropriate I'm I'm gonna use the word theology, but appropriate kind of posture when it comes to our, our online.
presence. Right? So, you know, like most people, I have a I have Facebook, I have Instagram, I have, I actually have Snapchat and TikTok mm-hmm because I really care about the next generation. And I feel like that's where they are. Right. And, but there's somebody listening right now. Who's like, well, you know, I've got Facebook and Instagram or [00:12:00] even just Facebook and what, what.
When you think about it from a, a, a Jesus theological standpoint, do you think, okay, this is my table. This is my megaphone. Like, give us some imagery around what this is in the season of life that we're in. Cuz I, I think that, you know, obviously the digital world is not going away. It's not changing. But maybe how the church and how the individual Christian uses it should.
Katie: Yeah. So social media is not a billboard. It is very much a conversation. So yeah, I would think of it more as a table. What's crazy is that we're more connected than we've ever been, but more lonely also than we've ever been as a society. It's kind of insane, cuz like we don't actually have to have conversations with each other to keep up with each other.
Right. Like today my best friend posted. You know, a new, some pictures of her kids going to school and it's not like she had to send those to me personally. I just [00:13:00] saw them like them and said, Hey, love that. And that was it. Right. She didn't have to call me and tell me about her kids' first day of school and that you lose something there.
Right? Like you lose that whole conversation that could've led to more conversations that would've led to maybe us talking. You know, church or, or more meaningful things. Right. And so when we live in this world, like, where do we go from here is I think, how do we redirect it? Right. So social media at the end of the day is just a tool.
And I think it is a tool that we can utilize to think about how. Our lives are being displayed for others. And I think use it as a way to promote authenticity. Like not just showing like how pretty and perfect your family is, but also sharing, you know, some things that you're going through as well, but also using it as a tool to, you know, share the [00:14:00] burden with others.
Like, so when, you know, you can see that other people are dealing with things, sending them a message and saying, Hey, like what can I be praying for you again is just like, literally sometimes the easiest thing you can do and you don't have to like necessarily go out and, you know, start to go fund me tomorrow.
But those things matter, you know, to people. And so how do we just start more relationships and then not just start more relationships, but go deeper into those relationships instead of. I don't know, having on the surface relationships. Right?
Tony: Yeah. That, I mean that, I think that checks my experience too.
Right. It's if it's only about posting the things that I want people to see about me then then it's not very social and nor is it very life giving it's just more, yeah. Feels like an obligation for sure of sorts.
Katie: I actually could talk a little bit more about that. When it comes to authenticity, for example, last December I was dealing with major [00:15:00] depression and anxiety.
I've actually got, I have panic disorder which I inherited, you know, it's nothing of my own fault that I have panic disorder. it is an inherited condition. My grandmother had it, my mom had it. And now I have it. However, I have a choice and how I'm gonna deal with it differently. Right. Because you know, medication and stuff like that, just didn't what didn't.
Right when they went totally when they were going through the thick of it in their thirties which was the same for both of them, by the way, very odd. But it came around at the same age and it, and it was existent. And so I knew it was coming and then I was dealing with it. So hardcore in December that like in therapy, my charts were just off, off the charts for how depressed and anxious I was.
And then. I had my first ever like suicidal thoughts that I had ever had in my life and thought like, this is it's insane. And I need to have, I need to talk to someone and need some help. Thankfully I've worked totally past that and I'm totally on the other side of it. Like I am, I am doing great.[00:16:00]
Medication's been fantastic. Counseling is help. But at that time it was so incredibly difficult. However, what I did this past year was I actually shared those screenshots of my charts of them being off the chart and just, you know, a picture of like how I felt that day and just like. That it is incredibly hard, right?
Like you can think somebody's life is picture perfect because at the time mine definitely seems that it was probably then, and they can be dealing with a completely different situation. And I've had so many people reach out, just tell me and not reach out through me. It's so funny. They haven't really reached out to me via social media or like even text.
But every time people have seen me in person who haven't seen me in a. So maybe they've only seen me, like once in the last year, when they see me, they go immediately and they say, I am so grateful you posted that because I felt the same in this last year. Wow. And I am so grateful that you just. Put it out there and said the truth about how you were [00:17:00] feeling.
I think so many people are navigating these really tough feelings coming outta this pandemic and it's, and it's okay because it's traumatic, right? It was very traumatic. What we all went through together. I completely changed jobs and careers and a lot of people did that. And so I think it's worth talking about those things and, and expressing those feelings and opening up a little bit online so that you can start conversations with people that matter.
Tony: Yeah, I, I think that that's beautiful and I really appreciate your vulnerability there. As I heard you talking about that, one of the thoughts that I had was a friend of mine who Who is, I'm not gonna use the word vulnerable. As a matter of fact, he's somewhat aggressive in his sharing of his political leanings and how he thinks about the world.
Sure. I I'm wondering if, if you could coach us the reclamation community here on how, how to use the breadth of social media for [00:18:00] the Jesus stuff. for the political stuff. If we should be using it for the political stuff at all, like what's the, what's the right. What's the right balance
Katie: here. Well, my, this is for me personally.
I don't think this is for everyone. I think this is for me, but I think. Gosh, there's so much hardship in the world. There's so much bad in the world. I'm not gonna add to it online. So for me, yeah, the internet is a place to spread kindness and goodness and share stories of life change and what God is doing.
And yeah, of course share like some, some stuff that you're going through because you know, it's going to help others. Right. But I, you know, to me, Especially politics. It's not, it's not very helpful to a lot of people you honestly get into more fights than you do good online, especially. And so I say those personal conversations for like actually in person and so that we can [00:19:00] have like more of a dialogue.
So, I mean, not that you can't have hard conversations online. I definitely think that you can, but I just think that I would prefer for me personally, to share the good news and to share. Kindness and spread positivity. And because we just got enough, we've just had too much in the last couple years. Like I'm, I'm done with that.
Like I just wanna spread positivity. And if you know, I see other people doing that. I don't really partake in it. I don't have any interest in being that person anymore. Like, or I never was really, I try to avoid drama, like the plague. And so, you know, I think that just causes more strife than it does.
Good. So.
Tony: No, I like that. I, I like the idea about setting up ground rules for the internet. Like if it was, if you were going over to someone's house, like before we would go over to someone's house for a dinner party, mom would be like, Hey, whatever you do, don't talk about X, Y, and Z, because right. We're not putting our family's drama out there and it's not
Katie: necessary.
Right? Like it's not [00:20:00] necessary to make your grandpa upset about. The grass, I don't know, or whatever he, right, right. You know, like not, it's not necessary. Like we can just avoid it and like, not talk about it. And we can tell grandpa about how much we love. I don't know the golden girls or something , I dunno, we can talk.
Right, right, right. Completely. And I'll have a, a nice cordial conversation that can lead to having more meaningful, impactful conversations and, and just avoid the drama, the negativity. Like there's just, no, there's no space for it in my personal. And I don't, so I don't make space for it on the internet either.
Like you're never gonna hardly hear any of that stuff from me. Like even personally, like when we're just sitting, like, I'm probably not gonna bring up politics to somebody on this screen, honestly. So I'm not gonna do it on the internet either. Yeah.
Tony: I, I, I love this new resource that you have out. And one of the things I love to do with books is read the dedication pages, right?
And so you've got a [00:21:00] fairly A fairly robust dedication page fairly, which is, which is great. I don't mean that in a bad way. I hope it didn't. I didn't, I
Katie: didn't mean for, I know it's lengthy. It's so funny, but I was like, I don't know if I'm ever gonna do this again, so I'm just gonna put it all out there.
Tony: well, it, so, so I I'd like to read it cuz I, I, I, I think, I think it's beautiful. I think it's well written. Thank you. So I'm gonna read it and then I'm gonna I'm gonna let you comment on it. It, it says to my mom who took me to church and, and cooked for and fed those who came every Sunday without whom church communications.com would not be a real reality today for my late father, who told me that getting a business degree would help the church, my brother and his wife, my biggest fans and constant sources of friendship, my friends who always said, I would write a book one day and never doubt.
My business partner, Kenny, who never gave up on our dream of serving thousands of churches worldwide. And to you church communicator. For giving me a chance. Oh, isn't that
Katie: meaningful? it
Tony: is meaningful. [00:22:00]
Katie: You touch it, like tear up. I'm like, oh yeah, like that's so, Ugh. Yeah, no, it gives me the goosebumps just hearing it red.
So yeah. No, thanks for re-sharing it with me. I know you had some questions. Sorry. I just like,
Tony: no, it's good. I well, so, so my question is, is H how important is the balance cause that that's community, what you, what you just talked about here is community. Yeah. And what we're gonna talk about online is community and, and the church communicator.
How important is the balance between tangible like moms, dads, and brothers and friends in, in. Flesh. Yeah. And and the 30,000 people in your Facebook group
Katie: friends well, those 30,000 people matter to me now, do they matter? Yeah. No,
Tony: and I, I, yeah, they, I mean, obviously everyone matters, right? Like, right.
Yeah, how do we live in that tension? It's
Katie: so funny. So I actually figured out, or I'd seen a Ted talk on parasocial relationships. Have you ever heard of this [00:23:00] term parasocial relationships? So it's technically, it's a term you use as fictional characters, but I think it's also come to be a term that you use with influencers, which is very odd that that's what I've become.
I, I acknowledge that that is weird. But like, so what that means is essentially these people. Even if I don't personally know them, a lot of them feel that like they personally know me. sure. Which is why I said like, thank you for giving me a chance, because at the time I was a 24 year old kid when I started this and you know, I think about it and I was just like a weak child navigating the internet, hoping that somebody would listen to someone who I just, I felt like John did the wilderness for the last, you know, 15 years of my life, like big way for the Lord on the internet.
Just what with like wild hair. And honey and locus, like I'm just like out
Tony: there, sack cloth. Yeah. I'm just sitting over here typing in my sack cloth. I
Katie: know. Like, I felt like that though, because like, people were like, eh, the internet, you know, like they were like, eh, the internet and the gospel, like we might, that might eventually, and [00:24:00] then COVID happened.
Right. And it was so crazy how like, automatically that opinion really changed about how like church can exist on the internet. But I do think about like, you know, my dad, so I said like He told me. So it's funny. Before I went to college, I had I'd wanted to study religion. I had wanted to go to seminary and my dad was very adamant that I not do that.
Which is so funny, he was very like, no, that kid, you can still serve the church, but you're going to do it differently. Which was so prophetic before he passed. Right before I went to college, actually. And so I said, okay, I'm gonna stick with it then. . And so I did, I stuck with like studying computers and technology and stuff like that, and it really has served the church incrementally more than anything I could have ever studied.
Not that, you know, theology isn't important, I guess, cuz it definitely is. However, you can study it on your own if you would like and that's what I've done, right. I, I was really lucky. I was personally discipled from a very young age, by a deacon in my church and, [00:25:00] and also I was licensed to ministry at 18 in my church which is a big deal, I think for a Southern Baptist church to do.
I, I don't know there was other, any other woman that was licensed in ministry before me. And so. It was. Yeah. I mean, I think that I'm just very fortunate to have had all these connections and all this stuff. That's kind of worked out. Like God's glory at the end of the day. Like, it's nothing about me.
It's just, I've been very fortunate and God has been very good.
Tony: Hey guys, just pause in this conversation with Katie to remind you to subscribe to the spirit and truth subst, what subst, it's kind of like a blog, you know, blogs are coming back. I've decided because I like him so much. And every single week we put out content there twice a week.
The spirit and truth subs. So the way to find it is spirit and truth, dots.com, spirit a and D truth, dots.com. And we put out leadership blocks, [00:26:00] spirit led leadership blocks. So it, it would do me be a huge favor to us. If you subscribed check out the free content there. We'd love to continue to walk alongside you as you lead in whatever context you're in.
Now let's finish up this conversation with Katie then let's drill down a little bit on the tension between the two, right? So, so managing an online group, creating real community, which is what you've done really well. Sure. Yeah. You know and then your friends and family who obviously love you and have poured into you.
And yeah. You know, how, how do you know. I mean, cuz they both, both sides of that discussion can become all consuming. How do, how do you live in that tension?
Katie: Okay. The tension between like having the online community. So it's what what's interesting is that online community, it can be so great. Like I love actually meeting these people in person, like at conferences and those kind of things.
And then it, the other side of the coin is, you know, trolls, right? Like you have [00:27:00] people who are just going to naturally be. Not the best on the internet that they would say things about you that they wouldn't say to your face online. Sure. And yeah, that, that hurts. It is not that doesn't like just, you know, I wish it went off of me like water.
It does not like it sticks to me and it has gosh, for years. So, you know, I've been doing this for a long time, so I have a thicker skin than I used to. I used to take things so personally, but at the same time, Gosh, you know, there are so many people online that I can think of right now, like Katrina, I, you know, who's in my group or Karina or Jeanette or, you know, Marcy or, you know, so many wonderful people like Peter inlet, who's at a church in Rochester, New York.
And. they're all over the world, but yet I am so lucky to have a relationship with them at all and be able to help them and talk to them about what their church is going through in needs. And I do consider them to be [00:28:00] friends in some kind way. Like, I, I get calls from them. I get texts from them, just like I would anybody else now do I of course have like a normal personal life.
Yeah. And to be fair, like a lot of my friends that are close to me have absolutely no idea about any of this stuff that's going, like, they, they don't let me right. Yeah. Like they, they don't know anything. Like, they're like excited that I like launched a book, but like, did any of them text me? No. Like they, you know what I'm saying?
Like, they're like, whatever, this is what Katie does. Like, they're like, it's fine. But do they care about that for me? No. Which honestly is so relieving. Like they don't put my worth and value in all these things that I'm doing. I am just a normal human friend to them that exists, which is really great.
Because I kind of need that safe space to just exist sometimes.
Tony: Yeah, I think that's good. I, and I think that's good wisdom, right? That the, you have one group over here and one group over there and they both exist and they're both valuable and they're [00:29:00] both, they both hold different parts of your life.
And I don't know, that feels like Which
Katie: a lot of us do that with work, right? Like course, a lot of our work friends and then our, like, you know, more close to Fri close personal friends, you know, there's maybe a couple people in like my personal life that maybe O like my sister-in-law is in the group, but like you know, she's a graphic designer.
She worked out a church with me when we, we worked with church together. So she, you know, has some say sometimes or some questions and stuff, but like, honestly, More than anything. She just frow of me. And we don't really talk about it. which is
Tony: the . Yeah, that's great. I love it. I love it. I, I want to get into the book a little bit.
Sure. So I kind of started with a, a, a bigger question. I think that most of my listeners would agree with me when I say that the church has the best message in the world. Like mm-hmm, the, the, the message of Jesus and all that comes with that is incredible. Why are we so bad [00:30:00] at communicating the gospel?
What happened? Where do we go wrong, Katie fix.
Katie: I wish I could tell you where we went wrong. It just feels messy. Right? Yeah. We have the best message in the world yet. We're so bad at packaging. It it's like we, like, we have a gift and we're like, handing it over, like still in the shopping bag from Walmart or something.
And somebody's like, I don't know. This is like what I want, how I want it, you know, like I dunno, or I think about too, you know, I talk about this a lot of times and like, I have a keynote that I give about. About online community. And I feel like for the last 30 years, like evangelism became a dirty word.
Right. And yeah, it is not right. Like, I, I, I have a heart for evangelism because I want people to come to know Jesus the way that I do, because I want them to have the same peace and security that I do in knowing someone that I can trust and follow. And try to [00:31:00] live my life, like, and flip some tables on occasion and, you know, do those kind of things.
And so I think though, what, what went wrong maybe a little bit was when we started handing out like tracks, like we just, we took it away from being a relational thing. The discipleship process is relational at the end of the day. Right. I think about how many times I've heard from so many people. They weren't personally discipled when they came to know Christ or, you know, in their church, they were a number in their church.
Nobody really knew them. Therefore they just like fell off the program. Because it wasn't about their relationship with someone. And it wasn't about actually having a relationship with Christ. It was about fulfilling things and doing things and, and earning things. And that's just not what it's about at all.
It's about grace and it's about dignity and it's about having a relationship with someone and actually showing up and being [00:32:00] consistent in someone's life because they matter not because they're a number.
Tony: I'm here for it. That's I, I, well, and we talk about, and how disciple discipleship and disciple making is it's intentional, relational and reproducible, right? So it's, it's all three of those parts put together. I think it's
Katie: scalable. I don't think like, you know, like I think we, we got into the scalability of it for so long.
Yeah. You know, and, and I don't know that it's scalable. I think it really is. It, it really depends upon a person and a person in that relationship. Like I said, I was so fortunate to have been discipled from a young age, by a deacon, the head deacon of my church, who was my sixth grade, Sunday school teacher, John Kliner.
Okay. So John I had so many weird questions. I was the worst kid ever, basically in Sunday school clubs. I was like, okay. So tell me about propitiation. Okay. Like tell me about. Why does it say this about predestination over here, but this, about that over there? Like tell [00:33:00] me everything or like, why could Jesus spend three days in the grave was three, like a specific number and why does that matter?
And so I was the worst child possible and. We had the best time exploring the Bible together and just being friends and he, and it was so great that he was able to pour all that information into me. What, what was better though, is that while John, he had answers, he also had more questions for me than he did answer.
Sure. And really taught me how to look into these things for myself and decide them for myself because I, I don't think we like teach interpretation. You know, like, and that each person is reading, the Bible is interpreting it for themselves. Right. And so, which is the whole point of Martin Luther, right?
The whole reformation thing was that was that we were able to like have this relationship with God and it could be personal and you can read the Bible and and have this relationship with it as well. [00:34:00] And so that's what I loved about my, like, you know, Discipleship relationship with John was that he let me make up my mind, even if he disagreed with it because I could prove it with, with biblical fact.
And then also, like it was something worth considering or whatever. And we, we just had, I don't know, we just had a great time of argumenting. I'm like discussing, not just argue arguing, but what's really great is I think that really reminds me of. Jewish rabbis. Like when you become a rabbi, this literally all you do is like, argue about scripture and like nobody ever comes to a conclusion.
Like, there is no, like, this is for certain thought, like it's very like ind script almost, but I love that process of just struggling through doubt and, and scripture and figuring out what do you think this says, what do you think this. and, you know, just working through it with somebody at the end of the day, and you're gonna [00:35:00] work through these things a million times in your life, right.
You're gonna read a scripture and it's gonna be a different thing 30 years from now than it did today. But having someone at the end of the day that you can call and talk to it about it is like the most important thing. That's I feel like where we kind of like threw off. I don't know things is we, we forgot about like mentorship or discipleship and we really put it into a.
We'll walk through this Bible study together. Right. Which is good. Like I'm not saying that's bad, like I think that's great, but I, I would love to see more places where it is encouraged to struggle through doubt and uncertainty and, and hard questions in scripture. One on one. and at the end of the day still be friends, you
Tony: know, right.
Well, I, I, I do think that that's how we solve the disagreement problem that we have online is we practice it in person one on one, on two. I, I feel very passionately that every person who who, who works in a church should tithe their weak [00:36:00] and disciple making relationships. Mm. Right. And so I'd like to see your time, you know, if.
Yeah. Tie your time. Right. And then and then also on knowing that it's not a spiritual gift that everyone has to it's part of our Christian identity.
Katie: Sure. Yeah, for sure. I think that, yeah, we, we make it something to do and to check off and like, Hey, I taught Sunday for five years, so I'm good. Like, God's good with me and
Tony: now I don't have to do anything else.
Right.
Katie: I have to, like, you don't have to mentor anyone. I mean, you know, technically, but. Man, what a joy it is to have a relationship with someone that you can like go back. And I have that relationship still with students that I was teaching to this day, like, they'll send me, you know, questions or they'll send me talks or something about like religious stuff.
And we watched actually some Bible studies stuff together, online and like talked about it afterwards. And like what a joy it is to just like discuss it. And like at the end of the day, say, Hey, we may not [00:37:00] come to the same conclusion and that's okay. But like, as long as we're both following Jesus and like, we hold these truths to be concrete that, you know, Jesus is the son of God, all these other things that really matter.
Then the rest of it's fair game, let's just have fun learning, right? Like let's have fun enjoying the experience outside of, you know, the, the concrete things.
Tony: So one of the things I appreciate about the way that you wrote this book is that you use very Current and very workplace centered terms to talk about church communications, branding, digital marketing, public relations, project management, that kind of, those kind of things.
Sure. I think that there's probably somebody listening who has the church in this box where it's like, man, the church doesn't. Branding help. Or doesn't does it, does the church really need a, a social media strategy or, you know, shouldn't we just be teaching the Bible or I I'm wondering if [00:38:00] you could kind of give us the, the, the, why someone should pick up this book and read it for their church.
Katie: Yeah. Okay. So here's the thing, your church absolutely doesn't need any of these things. Like if your church doesn't like fantastic. Good for you. Like I'm not gonna sit here and try to like sell you a book, cuz I don't think that's necessary if you don't think it's necessary for y'all like my church. So the church I grew up in definitely had no branding had no social media, had no website.
Today does. Yeah, kinda, but not really. They're still just serving their community now. I mean, have the. , but they're still, they're serving their community. Like that's really all, I think day and they have great relationships. Those people still love me. I come home and Linda across, still kisses me on the face and I still have to avoid it.
And it's something that I love, right. Like that to me matters. Okay. But at the same time, Linda's coming in hot.
Tony: Here we
Katie: go. Like, can we share the gospel and make it more clear and [00:39:00] hopefully even make it go further because of like communication strategies. That are now well learned in the business world.
Absolutely. We can. Is it completely necessary? Like this? Holy Spirit's the only thing that's necessary, like to bring the growth or whatever. Like, I don't, you know, I don't need to like tell you that, but do these things work and help? Yeah, of course they work in help. And so, you know, branding for. A church.
It's just a, to me, it's about making something memorable. Right. And so, and like, what is the, when somebody thinks of your church, like, what is the taste that's left in their mouth? You know, like yeah. We wanna make sure that like the taste and sea that the Lord is good is, is like cohesive across . And so I think there's so many religions that do that do this really well.
And then I feel like, you know, with churches, we've kind of like sometimes missed the mark. Some are excellent at it. Some are like, eh, [00:40:00] and like I said, whatever you're doing, like Jesus already loves it and approves and thinks is fantastic. So don't hear me say that. But at the same time, like, can we do this as well?
For sure. So branding is just something that helps people remember who you are, where you are. What you believe in a quick, a quick way, right? It it's a, it's a word mark. It's something that helps people be recognized around that community, around that church, around the organization, whatever it might be.
And, and, you know, there's a lot more things that go into branding than just a. A logo. I think people automatically think of logos, but you know, sounds jingles. , there's like some you know, phrases that people say there's so many things that actually go into a brand more so than just like, when I worked at a church, part of our brand was actually something our pastor would say every Sunday, he would say, you know, here, believe it live after like reading the scripture.
And he still says, And [00:41:00] that's part of our brand because he says it every week. And so your church might and going grace and peace, the love and serve the Lord. That is part of your brand because you're saying it every week. And so you probably already have a brand now, whether or not it is together, then that's a different question.
And I think this book can help you bring it all together. At least if you are frustrated that it's.
Tony: Yeah. I, I think that the way to think about something like this is that this is a, a tool to enhance what God is already doing in and through your ministry. Right. And if you're brave enough to put in the work, I mean, not the work is hard because it forces us to admit, right.
When you do communication, well, it forces us to admit where we're not communicating well. Right. Am I more long in that
Katie: it takes time? Like I know it's work. Like it takes time. It takes effort like. If you're a pastor of a church and you are the only person on staff, like, can you gain something from this book?
Like, absolutely. You can, but don't feel like you have to implement every single thing out of [00:42:00] it. Like, please just maybe walk away with like how to do SEO a little bit better for your church website. So people can find you easier, like right. You know, like the little things can matter and pay off in big ways.
Right? Cause that's what really matters is just finding those people who are frable Lord. And how do we find. And today a lot of that starts online because they're Googling questions or they're asking their friends, or they're going into Facebook and breeding people's profiles. And, you know, seeing like, oh, I don't wanna be a associated with that person because they are like this on the internet.
And if they're like that on the internet, then I don't wanna go to their church.
Tony: it's so true. I it's, it's such a reflection. It's, it's a, it's the new lobby. I don't know. I think our digital footprint is the new lobby of the church and one way or another people are gonna. Yeah, for sure. I, my community loves to pray and as this book continues to kind of go out into the wilderness, what's the, what can we be praying for this book?[00:43:00]
Katie: Yeah, I think that just reaches the right people that need to reach. I think there are so many people who are struggling with a lot of these ideas, especially after COVID like, should we keep this? Should we keep doing that? Do we need to do more? What should we be doing? And so I hope that it gives them direction and I hope that it clears up some answers or some questions that they have gives them some answers, some questions that they have.
More than anything. I hope that it helps them find the community that they need. If they feel lonely in communications for churches, they can always join our group. Like I hope that they can find that community with us if they, if they need to. I think that's why I started the group to begin with is because I knew that ministry was extremely lonely.
And so.
Tony: That's awesome. Okay. One more question to ask, but before I ask it, I know that my listeners are gonna wanna find you all over the [00:44:00] Innerwebs. Where is the best place to learn all things,
Katie: Katie? Yeah, you can go to church communications.com. You can also go to. Katie allread.com. If you're interested in the book is church communications.com/book.
I'm sure he'll probably put it in the show notes regardless. And then also we have a conference coming up at the end of September. And so we would love to see you there, if you would like to come it's in Nashville. And you can find that also on the website.
Tony: Great. And we will link to all that in the show notes.
And we'll also link to the Facebook group in the show notes, too, if you wanna get connected there. So we'll throw a link in there to, as. . Okay. Last question. I always love to ask people. It's an advice question. I'm gonna ask you to give yourself one piece of advice, except I get to name the season of life that you're in.
When you give set advice. Okay. So I'm gonna take you back to the day after you started that online Harry Potter group, that [00:45:00] international huge Harry Potter group. And of course it wasn't huge when you started, but if you could pull up a chair in front of that young lady, sit, need a knee with her, hold her hands and look her in the eyes.
What's the one thing that you're gonna tell her.
Katie: This is gonna matter more. Hmm. Yeah. I don't think, I didn't think anything of it until really recently in my life. I completely skipped over thinking about it in college or how it affected me in grad school. And then I really realized, I was like, ah, this is what God was doing this whole time, but I wish I could like go back and maybe think about.
Differently or like, I wrote some about it, but obviously I was a kid. So, you know, my writing about it was very like elementary at times, but it was such a journey. And I think if I could go back, I'd love to just [00:46:00] tell myself it was going to matter. Hmm.
Tony: Yeah. That's good. That's very wise, Katie. Thank you so much for your generosity today for your time for what you're doing for the kingdom online and in person and for all the leaders who you're gonna impact through this book.
It's I'm super thankful.
Katie: Yeah. Thank you so much, Tony, for helping me. I appreciate it.
Tony: Man. I told you guys what a great conversation. I love her heart for building community. I love her intentionality. I just appreciate the way that she's doing business in the world. A special shout out to my friend, Jason Moore, who connected me with Katie?
I think it was a, it was a great connection. Thanks, Jason. Really appreciate it. Guys, I am so thankful for you. And as we approach episode 200, I'm more and more aware of just how I wouldn't this journey. Wouldn't be the same without you in it. So thank you for listening. Hit that subscribe button, share this episode with a friend and remember if you wanna follow Jesus, you must be willing to move.
