#187: Pastor Bill White: Mature-ish
What does it mean to be “filled to the measure of all the fullness of God”?
Pastor Bill and I talk about the answer to that question and so much more. His wisdom is a gift to all of us!
EP. 187
Tony: [00:00:00] Hey everybody. Welcome back to the podcast. I'm excited today to be here with a longtime pastor communicator and author, bill white from Miami, Florida, pastor, bill. Thank you so much for being here today.
Bill: Thank you, Tony. It's a pleasure looking forward to it.
Tony: So I was, I was getting to know your story a little bit and you have quite the breadth of experience.
And one of the questions that I love to ask people from a macro sense is how, how would you describe the call that God has placed on your life? Hmm.
Bill: Wow. Yeah. I, the first word that comes to mind is personal. It just feels very personal. It has my name on it. Don't it's it's like my call is to be obedient and faithful in Helping the church stay real and relevant for the coming generations.
I mean, it's, it's kind of unfolded over time, but it seems like that's what my, [00:01:00] the expression of it has been transition. It's it's been help the church stay relevant and real and stay fresh in the middle of it, myself through the transitions. Is that what you're asking? yeah,
Tony: no, that's perfect. That's perfect.
I I ask a lot of my guesses question, cuz I like to kind of see where they're coming from and you're the first person that's ever said personal. I, I really like that. I like the idea that, that the call that placed on God's are that God is placed on our lives is unique to us. And I think that maybe that's something.
That often gets missed. Now you said something in your answer that really sparked my attention and it's it's stay fresh. Mm. So you've been in the church for at, at Christ journey church for 25 years over 25 years now. Yeah. How do you stay fresh? When it seems like all of the pastures I know are wrestling with burnout.
Bill: Well, staying fresh [00:02:00] doesn't mean I don't wrestle with burnout.
Tony: fair enough.
Bill: Fair enough. I, I just crave it even more. But it's daily. It's the daily discipline. It's the daily cross. It's the daily. Seeking and and persevering, but I, I have a saying actually, it's in the book. It just says first light, first choice seek first time with the king.
Mm. And and so that's a practice that I follow every day that I have a, a spot set aside where I know the Lord is already up and waiting for me. The Bible is open. The light is on. I never turn the light off. The Bible is never closed. I. Expect to meet the Lord there every day. So that's one of the practices, but, but it's really not simply about discipline.
It's about hunger. It's about craving. It's about the abiding and the trusting and the, and it's also [00:03:00] about paying attention to what matters and not the distracting discouragements everywhere else, including it within my own soul. You. Those echos that rise and then ask me if, remind me that I don't have what it takes to make it that.
that I will become a statistic and that those kind of thoughts haunt me. So I'm very thankful for freshness when it visits me and not just, and it's not an it you know, the freshness is a person it's, it's the person of Jesus Christ. And. Presence of his holy spirit that does that refreshing that that we absolutely must have.
And, but I'll also say this it's, it has been my, how do you stay in any ministry for 28 years? I've been privileged to serve this church in the Lord ear in south Miami for I'm in my 28th year. And when people ask me that, [00:04:00] you know, what's the secret to a long term pastorate. It's like daily faithfulness. I just want to be faithful.
Today I'd I'd like to put my head down on the pillow tonight and feel the smile of God's favor from saying, well, I didn't get it all done. And I I'm sure I didn't do it. All right. But I've been faithful today. Hmm .
Tony: I was, I was in the local church for 10 years before making the transition to spirit and truth and doing the work that I'm doing now with disciple making.
I I'm curious, just with the amount of experience that you've had how do you classify what the church experienced in COVID? Oh, man. That's a big question. I'm sorry.
Bill: it. You know, it was it turned everything inside out. It, it shook it, it shook the sheets, it shook the tree. It it shook the foundation and kind of shoved me back into [00:05:00] Psalm 91 and Psalm 46.
You know, if the. Passes away with the shaking thereof, then there's still a river that makes glad the city of God, you know, be still and know that I am God. So there was, for me, there was a, a redefining of of productive productivity or of success. It's one thing for me to say, well, success is being faithful every day.
And then when all the other. Ament of success are suddenly shriveled and go away then is being faithful enough. Well, that is yes, but that's what happened to me. And I think that for a host of pastors, there was a lot of soul searching on what am I doing? Why am I doing it? How will I keep doing it? And and how do I know I'm succeeding?
Tony: Yeah. Yeah, it's actually one of the reasons why I'm really [00:06:00] excited about this new resource that that you have out mature. Because I think one of the things that I saw in my own church and in just a lot of pastors who I was talking to is that it seemed like for the last couple of decades, we taught people how to come to church, but we didn't teach 'em how to follow Jesus.
And I'm curious. I'm curious, how do you define in, in the book? How do you define spiritual maturity and how do we know if we're mature?
Bill: well, ish ishish I define it, you know, it can be slippery and, and when you try to measure it, how do you measure it? You know, I've, I've seen measuring tools like on improved Mor moral decision making, or I've seen measure.
Measuring tools on harvesting and bringing in a hall of fish. What does that look like in the net? But the maturity that, that really the experience brought [00:07:00] to me that then wound up in that book is an experience of an increased capacity. For God. Hmm. And that comes from the prayer of Paul in the letter to the Ephesians chapter three, that amazing prayer about, you know, he's able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think that, that Ben addiction, that just kind of nails it the verse right before that just, oh my goodness.
He says that if we come to know the depth and the breadth and the length and the height of the love of God, then he says that you might be filled to the full measure of God. Does that mean, I don't remember ever sitting in that and soaking in that and just looking around and trying to imagine, what does it mean to be filled to the full measure?
Of the fullness of God. And so I [00:08:00] came out of that saying, wow, being made in the image of God must mean that I have a spiritual capacity to accommodate God in his Godness, whatever that means. And I think that's what Paul is talking about in that prayer. So regardless of what happens in the world, Regardless of what happens in, you know, the economy in the, everything, you know, what can happen in me and in you and in Paul was envisioning in every person that would ever live and connect with the love of God in Jesus Christ.
Something can happen that will increase your capacity to experience and house and facilitate God. Hmm, which suddenly means that, Hey, you know what, receiving the gospel doesn't just mean going to heaven someday when I die, it means [00:09:00] having God's life come alive in me, born again, and then start growing in me to the point that my capacities increase.
And and so I started seeing that theme in the letters of. So as you know, though, the outward man perishes, the inward is renewed. Every day. And I came to discover that the Greek scholars that I do, my background work with said that that was a new word from Paul. It never appeared anywhere in the ancient Greeks.
Oh, wow. This whole idea of becoming younger on the inside every day, this constant refreshment renewal on the inside. And I thought housing God is part of. What it means to be made in the image of God. And so having that image restored in Christ and then allowing his spirit to start enlarging and expanding our capacity.
And [00:10:00] now suddenly eternity got a lot more interesting to me. Because I'm not just gonna be on streets of gold. And though I'm excited to be about what God's business is. I'm gonna be more excited to be known even as to know him as he knows me. And that you see what I'm trying to say that whole, yeah. That whole mystery started just drawing me in.
And so that's what it means to be mature. Ish is to keep experiencing the next level of the capacity that God will be bringing to your inner life, that your outer life will not cannot keep from happening.
Tony: So, so some of my listeners who who've been super faithful over the years have heard me talk about this idea before, would you compare this kind of, to Entire sanctification.
If we could use a, a Wesleyan term, I, I come out of a Methodist tradition. Right. But that idea about like my, my insides decreasing so that my[00:11:00] so that I could be more like Christ. Is that, is that a similar or am I, am I, am I noting it enough? I, I,
Bill: I think I, I offer some hesitancy in the book because this isn't about idolatry.
I am not becoming God. I am not suddenly going to. Be fully Christlike. My, my background is more in the, the Baptist vein that says. I struggle with my sinfulness daily and I will not be freed of it until the ultimate consummation. You know, I'm, I am saved justified from the penalty of my sin. I am sanctified from the power of sin over time, but I won't have that full freedom of complete sanctification in my understanding until I'm in his presence and glorified.
So I think there's. I, I don't fully understand the concept of entire sanctification, but I think what I'm talking about is allowing [00:12:00] the holy spirit to redeem and sanctify my emotional life. Yeah. Not simply my moral decision making life and sometimes sanctification in the Baptist tradition seems to communicate a kind of sinless.
Perfectionism that doesn't resonate with scripture to me. That's not exactly what I'm talking about, not moralistic self, right? Gotcha. Pharisee. Yeah, that depends on my, my doing, but an experience of the depth of growing and knowing God on the inside. Not so maybe that's what entire sanctification means and you can help me understand that.
Tony: Well, the Wesleyan tradition has a lot more gray in it than, than, than a lot of other denominations. So I think it's close. Right? Mm-hmm like, I, I think it's, it's probably, and there's smarter theologians than me out there who would, who [00:13:00] would better describe it, but it sounds very similar to my basic understanding of entire sanctification.
Mm. That basic idea that. That Christ is working in us and expands our ability to love him and love others more because of set expansion. Yeah. And, and I, I think it's, it's it's. I, I they're, they sound pretty close to me. And, and again, if somebody wanted to cut hairs, I'm sure they could find a thousand of 'em, but , there's somebody surely there's somebody listening right now.
Who's on a treadmill or pushing a lawnmower and they're like, okay, pastors, what does this have to do with me? Right. So, so let's answer that question for them to, to the average person who just wants to follow Jesus a little bit more closely. What does this have to do with them?
Bill: Try to imagine don't well, first try to imagine, not settling for just wanting to follow Jesus a little more closely.
try to [00:14:00] imagine the fullness of God bodily in Jesus Christ and then through his death and resurrection, the atonement. Being made at one in a growing way of your experience with his fullness. So try to imagine God drawing you close personally in a way that you can consciously.
commune with in a daily way. And then those promptings of his spirit whispering to you or guiding you gently nudging your heart. When you open the scripture, the book comes alive. These are probably not concepts that we. Encountered somewhere before, but the idea of whatever has stalled your progress or wherever you are stuck in the [00:15:00] journey.
Imagine that a breakthrough coming that takes you to the next level. so instead of, instead of coming in and saying, well, Jesus, I just want to get a little closer to you. Say Jesus, I want everything you have for me, life is short. Life is so short and Yolo, you know, you only live once. Right? And so this This opportunity is here so that we can access all that God has in Christ for us and through us.
So that his mission then is accomplished in his world. You know, Wesley did say the world is my parish, right? Yeah. And so God wants us to just dream. Large this, that you can be a world influencer, not because you're trying to be grandiose, but because you're staying as close to Jesus as you can, and he is enlarging your capacity.
And as you walk with him into his [00:16:00] plan for your life, then God's mission is going to be fulfilled in an eternal way. And so then when you get on the other side, then we will discover. That eternity was built with time in mind. Hmm. That, you know, so I'm thinking of other movie lines that talk about you know, what we do in this life echoes the eternity, gladiator.
Sure. Yeah. Braveheart saying you know, all men die, not every man truly lives. Well, that's what this is about. This is about defying death, not just physically. But allowing him his life to come alive in you in such a growing spiritual way that you become the channel and the presence and the, the, the hand of God reaching wherever you go.
So that's the actually the, the process is, is. Into the upper regions of the, of the [00:17:00] age and stage development is about mentoring and multiplying and being that kingdom agent, wherever you go as a Christ follower.
Tony: Yeah. I, I love that. And, and it's funny how. You know this idea about the fullness? It, it, it can also just like, I don't know about you, but it gets me really hyped up.
Like I like, I'm like put me in coach. I'm
Bill: ready. Where do you want me to go? What do you want to take? I don't wanna miss any of it. I don't wanna miss any
Tony: of it. So like, what are the first. What are the first like practical steps if somebody's like, okay. Okay, pastor, I wanna live into the fullness of life with Christ.
I'm ready to start growing and maturing. I'm ready to expand my capacity to build the kingdom of God. What am I doing today to start that process?
Bill: You can't fast track. Maturity. Mm that's good. You can't microwave disciples. You know, it, there is a [00:18:00] process and all progress happens according to a process.
First, the seed, then the sprout, then the stem, then the leaf, then the fruit. And so the, so the first thing is you gotta give yourself permission to be where you are to be who you are, and then to. The husbandman let the gardener, let the, let the Lord of life, then get to know him. And then his life will start expanding your life.
So it's not about transaction. It's more about yielding to transformation.
Tony: So over time being intentional, disciplined, committed. While you, I mean, I thought you said it really well being obedient to the prompting of his spirit. So it's what we're talking about is building an intimate relationship. Is that simplifying it too
Bill: much and learning how to say yes.
You know, learning how to say yes. [00:19:00] Yes, Lord. I mean, when you sense him prompting you, when you see him leading you, then instead of arguing, you say, yes, you learn how to say yes. Well, what do I do when I can't say yes, well, I tell the truth, Lord, I'm not. You know, but then here's what I learned, how to pray.
I'm willing to become willing so I'm gonna get to yes. And so the, the prayer of the heart of Jesus modeling for us, how do we stay yielded as continuously as possible? He taught us to pray. Thy kingdom come you're the king you rule over me. The kingdom of, of, of my life is under your authority and sovereignty, but he also taught us then thy will be done.
So that's say yes. On earth in my lifetime, as it is in heaven, that was the model prayer. And then we see him modeling it for us at the hardest part of his life in GSEM, you know, let the cup pass from me, [00:20:00] but, but wait a minute. What I want is yes, I want what you want. And so learning how to pray. Yes.
Learning how to say yes. Learning how to live. Yes. With God is key. The it, the yes of faith that just says, I want to know you. I wanna let go of what's behind reach forward to what's ahead. I want to know you and seize the prize for which you seized me. You know, the Paul's letter of Philippians, but it's about knowing him first and foremost.
And then he's the one as. Prompts us and we respond our yes is his love language.
Tony: Hey guys, just pause in this conversation with pastor bill to remind you that spirit and truth is a 5 0 1 C three nonprofit. That means that you have the ability to partner with us as we partner with the local church, if you'd like to get connected to [00:21:00] our subs subscription or get our blog, or get connected to a firebrand or theological magazine, all the different ways we walk alongside and equip the local church.
Check us out spirit and truth.life. That's a beautiful saying R yes. Is his love language. That's guys that might be worth the whole podcast right there. because I, I, I think, I think so often we forget that this, this call to be faithful is a, it's an action. It's an action movie. It's not, it's not a. A a standstill movie.
It requires action. How, how do you know you called it? The prompting of his spirit? I, I love that line. How, how do you know. That it's God's voice and not what bill or what Tony wants to do. Cause I, I know that I'm, I'll talk myself into some really bad decisions. Yeah.
Bill: yeah. And sometimes since the, the tempter and the accuser is speaking through my voice.
I'm [00:22:00] it sounds like, Hey, that makes a lot of sense to me. I mean, who knows better? What's best for you than you, right? Why don't you listen to me, I'm talking to you and it sounds like good wisdom because that's my voice. And I think that I've got some things worth listening to sometimes. But that's part of the growth process, those learning the nuances, and then learning how to lean in to To start filtering, you know, testing all things and then holding onto what's good to to learn how to lean in and say, well, Lord, if that's you.
You know, the, the prayer speak, Lord, your servant's listening. How do I learn to recognize his voice and then lean into it and invite him to turn the volume up? Because I wanna, I wanna say yes, Lord. I just wanna, I wanna be careful that it's you, that I'm saying yes to. So one of the guidelines that I suggest is The written word of God, obviously getting to know his written revelation because the stories of others on the journey is like a channel [00:23:00] marker that help us know where others have passed.
The, the living word of God is the holy spirit and he will Quicken, or he will make a live. He will bring to our mem remembrance, the truths that will take us into freedom. And then the other channel marker on that, on that path is the incarnate word of God, Jesus of Nazareth Jesus himself. So when I have a prompting that doesn't align with scripture or doesn't reflect the fruit of God's spirit, And doesn't lead me to find Jesus in the future.
Then chances are that's me about me trying to be either more religious so that I can, you know appear to have it all together and be farther along than somebody else. Rather than walking humbly with Jesus and and allowing his truth, his word of truth, [00:24:00] his spirit of truth. And then he is the truth.
And those three align to help me know and filter whether or not those are just my ideas. And of course, then there's also the community of faith. That in the process you start discovering as a newborn, as an infant, as a toddler, we need. The food of God's spirit, the food of God's word and the community to love us and set.
Table for us, but then the next level's up from childhood preteen and adolescent, that becomes more like equip me. And so like you already said, my faith has to take action. There are actions involved. It's not works righteousness, but it is co elaboration. There's God's part. And there's my part. And God's part is initiating.
And my part is responding by faith in obedience. And then. As I start building that spiritual muscle and engaging as a [00:25:00] warrior in the battlefield, that spiritual adolescence, then I start discovering the secrets of adulting being a spiritual adult, adulting my life, and then moving into it's spilling over into others through.
Being a spiritual parent, a grandparent and a godparent. So that now my life is multiplying and mentoring others.
Tony: Yeah. I love talking about spiritual parenting. So L let's jump into that a little bit. Obviously you, you're a pastor to a, a, a really large congregation. You've been there for a long time. I would imagine.
That a lot of people want to get on your calendar and would love to have you speak into them, would love to have you walk with them. You know, one of the things that we talk about here on the podcast is disciple making. As we, we, when we walk alongside someone in their journey of faith, it's rooted in scripture and it must be multiplied.[00:26:00]
and so I'm curious, kind of two questions. What does that look like in your life currently? And how do you decide who the right fit is to walk alongside? Because time is limited. Yeah.
Bill: Well, I was taught to always look for fat hungry people, you know, faithful available, teachable and hungry and, and they have a way of finding you.
And if you're, if you pay attention while you're teaching and then training, and then you create opportunities for those who would like to. To advance the kingdom and grow in their spiritual life. Then that's, that's what I typically have done. And then offer opportunities for a more. Small group expression experience of it.
And then even in that say, you know what? I think this challenge right over here is something that you're gifted for, that you could, [00:27:00] you could make a difference with. Would you be willing to try that out? And it looks to me like your GPS, you know, your gifts, your passions, and your skills, your GPS lines up with this opportunity.
So why don't we try it? And I'll, I'm here for you. I'm here with you. You do it and then we'll check in. So it's a, I, you know, the thought that was coming to my head was it's like trial and error. I don't know. We just have to give ourselves permission to to move out when we aren't certain and then watch where God shows up right now, I'm preparing a message on on the second missionary journeys of Paul and, you know, the outset of that trip was full of.
Some difficulties first, he had difficulties with his traveling partner Barnabas, and then there was John mark that they thought was gonna be great. And the first time around didn't work out so great for Paul, but Barnabas thought, oh, he is worth another chance. And then Paul said, well, then [00:28:00] you take him and I'm gonna take Silas.
And you know, so it was a, it was a difficult. real time, real life, real human experience of emotional messiness. And then the conflicting desires of give them a second chance or know the intensity is gonna be so hard that we gotta be able to depend upon each other. I think, you know, some of that tension was going on and then as they launched out Paul and Silas, they tried to go to like two or three different places and God said, So I think you just gotta give yourself a chance, give yourself permission to learn as you go.
Does that make sense? Is that yeah, no,
Tony: that's fair. That's perfect sense. And I, I think it I think it reiterates the relational message of what we're talking about because relationships are messy, you know, and we're all trying to do this together and it. Tough and people are, you know, I I'm sure you've said it or heard it [00:29:00] said, you know, the church would be perfect if it weren't for all
Bill: the people.
Yeah. Yeah. Ministry would be easy if it were more for all those people. And then I also relate to the guy, I think it was moody. Who said, you know, I've never had more trouble with anybody than myself. Right. Amen. Person I'm looking at in the mirror is somebody that I'm still like really come on.
Tony: So I, I I love this spiritual growth and, and spiritual maturity ish kind of approach.
And yet I'm also acutely aware that it it's not, it's not clean, it's not fast, it's not super scalable initially. You know, and, and, and I, I look at the landscape of the church and. And this might be just super nerdy for two guys who love the local church. But if it's just me and you, that's fine.
How, how do we change the culture of a program driven [00:30:00] north American results pews in the seat church world?
Bill: Yeah, it's gotta be one life at a time. It's gotta be one group at a time. It, you know It's gotta be house by house. Just like the gospel traveled in the Roman. Yeah. Early Roman world. And you move with the movers, you, and then you let the others feed as they will.
And everybody, you know, you gotta just like, even Jesus, he would feed the 5,000, we'd say, well, that might be a weekend experience around here. And then, but he poured himself into the few. Yeah. And so, and even among the 12, there were three. And And then when it came to doing the advanced work in new communities, the 120 perhaps got set out, you know, I'm not sure how all that worked, but it, it was scalable, but in a different way.
Yeah. And instead of locking got into to programs or buildings, [00:31:00] the way that we've inherited part of that is learning how to let go. Of what isn't facilitating the heart of the mission life to life, person, to person, house, to house, family, to family, and then be, be willing and able to adapt to pivot to what's the, what's the word today?
Be agile. Yeah. To stay in step. So it's, we're in for some challenging days, the, the institutional church, as we've known, it needs to be reinvented reenvisioned by the first century church by the of Jesus.
Tony: There's some people listening. I know who are who are leaders in their local church. They they're lay leaders. They're elders they're they have a voice. If you were gonna speak to them for a minute about how to shift and encourage their pastor to think more relationally.[00:32:00] I, I'm curious if, if you could maybe give them a word about how to lead well into, to fostering spiritual
Bill: maturity.
The first goal is always to love people. Yeah. And to love people means that you, we have to listen and learn people. So usually, you know, preachers are always asked to say something and so we always feel like we have to say something and it's. Better for us to have something to say. Right. amen. But we're always put on the spot, but how do we learn how to have something to say, well, let's love, let's set out to love first and then let's and how do we love?
Well, we gotta listen. We listen in to the stories we listen for. What's not being said verbally, but for what's perhaps being communicated emotionally, and then we learn and then we try to reframe the conversation so that we can say back what I think I heard you say was, and then we understand, so we gotta learn how [00:33:00] to listen and learn how to love and then help people feel one of the ways we're saying it now, Is that we, we want every person connected in our family, our church family, to feel known and to feel needed so that they have a meaningful contribution to make.
But they're not here to do a task. They're here to be known and to be loved. To be cherished, to be engaged, to be connected, to be seen. And in these days of isolation and polarization and, and all the craziness out there that wants to come in here. And I don't just mean in the institutional church. I mean, trying to cloud our heads and, and entangle our hearts.
It's more important than ever that we as pastors. Love your leaders love, listen, learn, and find ways to let it be [00:34:00] personal and caring. I, I don't know how to. To pars that out, beyond that it would be give yourself permission to start where you are. Yeah. To let it be small, you know, don't despise the day of small things but tend the seed.
And we're watching for the weeds. We're also observing the thorns and we're trying to. Clear them out as best we can, but it's one person at a time, one life at a time, and then seek to live with integrity in your, in your growth at the same time. And one size doesn't fit. All. Every church is going to be different, right?
Every, every dynamic of decision making and governance and power within a family system, within a group within a church is going to be different for. So we've gotta move in, bringing a truckload of mercy and front loading forgiveness. [00:35:00] You know, forbearance is really forgiveness on the front. You don't wait till somebody offends you to use it.
You go in preparing to love people before they ever get a chance to hurt you or offend you. And and so what a day for pastors to need to lean hard into the forgiving grace of Jesus, but then be willing to express it to others. And I, I just finished a message last month in the current series we're on about About forgiveness and leading with forgiveness that that Jesus shows us that you don't have to wait till somebody apologizes.
If they ever do. But on the cross, the very ones that were offending him, he was saying, man, father, I'm gonna lead with forgiveness. Forgive them. I'm not gonna let this get me stuck. I'm not gonna let it have me. I'm gonna lead with forgiveness. And and then this was the, the, this occurred to me years ago in the ministry, but I know [00:36:00] people have had to apply it to me when Jesus said blessed or the merciful for they shall obtain mercy.
It occurred to me that the only time. anybody, you know, because you say, oh, I'm not gonna have mercy. They don't deserve mercy. They don't deserve to be forgiven. Well, the only time that mercy can be played is when somebody doesn't deserve it. Hmm. That's good. Isn't that true? Yeah. It's the only time I need forgiveness is when I don't deserve it.
Yeah. And so I'm going to learn how to be the blessing of mercy giving before. The offenses come and then model mercy. And then, so that applies here too. That's how community happens. We we give grace and mercy and forgiveness before it is required.
Tony: That feels like a really good word for all of culture in this season or the last couple years.
And just [00:37:00] the tension of it all. I, I would be remiss if I didn't mention that this, this writing is not simply just your thoughts, but this was part of a large kind of scale study put on by an organization called gray matter. That was kind of part of this oh yeah. Process. And in the. And, and I think my notes have that if I'm correct here, they, the, an assessment tool that kind of comes with this.
And I'm, I'm wondering if you could talk a, about how important it was to kind of get to the research to help create something that was really
Bill: helpful. It was, it was very valuable. Tony. Ron sellers was introduced to me by another. Professional friend in ministry, Steve blunt, who said bill and Steve, Steve and Susan had been attending and participating with Christ's journey online during COVID and were Intrigued and delighted in a sense, when they [00:38:00] saw the teaching series that I did called mature.
And and it was coupled with another one called adulting. And then Steve has been in the The kingdom service of providing curriculum and books, et cetera. And so he asked me, would I be open and interested in considering that? So that's how this, those materials came to be a book, but then as the book was developed, then he said, Ron sellers with gray matter research could really help us help others listen to their own journeys.
Through this self-awareness tool. Hmm. And so so Ron took a couple of, well, actually two or three attempts at it. And and we talked back and forth about it and saw what the results looked like in it. And then he took it to a nationwide survey of a thousand plus people. And and so the results from [00:39:00] that I feel were were very.
Telling and compelling to me in one way. It, it seemed well, what if it's a what if everybody winds up being a toddler? Right. And it's like, nobody wants to be a toddler. What, what does that mean? And and then as the results came out, it turns out that in American Christianity, according to this study and the survey work of the research of these thousand plus respondents that many of us over half of us in American Christianity responded have shown that level.
Of engagement and development, which means to me to my pride, it's like, no, I don't wanna be a toddler unless I start thinking you mean I could have a whole new childhood with God. Yeah. What could refresh my experience? And then grow me into the me that he would have me be. And I could [00:40:00] begin again. I could, you know, so I started framing it and then I started seeing it.
Well, wait a minute. you're not stuck in your spiritual childhood once you identify and become aware of where you are, but where you would like to be. Then, can you imagine your next level self? Can you see what God has for you? Well, maybe not, but let me show you, you know, and so alert, like teaching a kid, how to ride a bike, see that bike, see that road, see those legs, see that, and then you help them get on it.
And. Take the journey and they haven't even imagined one day what, you know a triathlon could look like, but somebody who loves them, believes in them and can envision what all they could become. Is helping them step into their next level life. And then at the heart of that, this thought came to me, their identity, their truest identity.[00:41:00]
So much of our culture right now is just captivated by who am I really? You know, what is my identity? And right now in culture, it appears that. Determining identity has been thrust upon each individual, which is a pretty load to carry. You know, it's kind of our new idolatry is I will define myself and I will make myself and only to discover that I'm not that gifted.
I'm not that. And I could be an error, but what the gospel of Christ gives us is our truest identity, an image bearer of almighty God, male and female meant. To know God, to house God, to grow in capacity for God and to reflect and communicate God's character and God's life in this world in, in every one of those challenging situations in every one of the conflicting [00:42:00] emotions and every one of the oppressive.
Situations you can imagine, and then help others find their way to spiritual freedom. So I'm way over talking, but, but that's that's at the heart of it.
Tony: It's beautiful. And I, I think I know my community pretty well and they love to pray. And so I'm just gonna ask them to pray. For that new identity.
Mm. For, for the readers of this book, and as they pick up their copies to pray for, for that identity to be kind of branded into their hearts and soul too. And, and, you know, I, I think it's a beautiful image and I, I, I love. Love love the mission. Now I have one more question for you. But before I ask it, I know that my listeners are gonna wanna follow you and what God is doing in and through your ministries.
Where's the best thing to learn all about you and the work that you're doing in the world. Hmm.
Bill: Well, Christ journey.org is our church's address. [00:43:00] And Let me see if Vaya has given me some help here on where we could check out.
Tony: You have a great website. Pastor, pastor, bill
Bill: white com looks like, yeah.
Should send people. Shouldn't it.
Tony: Pastor bill white.com. I've already been on it. It's a beautiful website. Your team has done an incredible job. And you can pick up your copy of the book there, so, wow. I got you on the assist, pastor, bill. Don't worry.
Bill: Thank you. Thank you. I had nothing. Air and you save life.
Thank you, Tony. I love it.
Tony: Okay. Last question. I always love to ask people. It's an advice question, and I'm gonna ask you to give yourself one piece of advice, except I get the name kind of the season of life that you're in. And so I wanna take you back 28 years to the end of your very first day at Christ journey.
And if you could pull up a chair in front of that young [00:44:00] man and sit need any with him, maybe even grab him by the hand, look him in the eyes. What's the one piece of advice you're gonna give him.
Bill: Hmm.
Let it happen. As God designs mm. Is not don't force it don't rush it. You know? I mean, at that point in my journey, I was just in awe of the opportunity and and felt unworthy and humbled by the but I think I would tell him don't be in a hurry. Hmm. You know, just walk with God into the future.
Amen. [00:45:00]
Tony: Amen. That's a good word for all of us. I think pastor, bill, thank you so much for your generosity of time and for your commitment to the local church and for all the things and ways that God is using you. It's, it's been my absolute privilege to chat with you today.
Bill: Thank you, Tony. It's great to get acquainted with you and may God multiply.
Your impact and his kingdom into the lives of so many, all your listeners and beyond. And thank you for the privilege of getting to share a bit of our journey too.
Tony: Wow. I love this conversation with bill. I love his heart for the local church. I love his wisdom. You know, one of the things I realize in my own life is that sometimes I don't sit down with people who've further down the road than I am.
And so I, I loved pastor Bill's heart. I love what he talks about spiritual maturity. I think it's an important reminder for all of us guys. I'm so thankful for you for our conversation today, for the opportunity to connect. If you want to connect with me online, the best place to do it is [00:46:00] on Instagram at T w M I L.
T w Milt. And remember guys, if you wanna follow Jesus, you must be willing to move.
