#262: Clarence Shuler: Finding Hope in a Dark Place
Dr. Clarence Shuler wants to help you wrestle with the dark places in your life.
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EP. 262
Tony: [00:00:00] Hey guys. Welcome back to the Reclamation Podcast, where're. Our goal is to help you reclaim good practices for following Jesus. If we haven't met yet, my name is Tony, and I am your host with over a decade in the local church. I care deeply and passionately about helping you connect with Jesus in practical ways.
Today's conversation clearance. Schuler Clarence, incredible guy, like just an incredible author. You're gonna want to hear his story. I absolutely love getting to know him. He's got a brand new resource out called Finding Hope in a Dark Place. I think if you've ever wondered about mental illness, if you've ever wondered about leaning in, Tell what God has in store for you.
This is gonna be such a great conversation. He's written so much. We talk about triggers, we talk about insecurity, we talk about grace, and how do we lean in with all of that? I just think you're really gonna love Clarence's heart. And if you do, do me a favor. [00:01:00] Hit that subscribe button wherever you listen to podcasts.
Leave a rating review on iTunes or Spotify, and the highest compliment you can give us. Share this episode with a friend. So now without any further ado, let's jump into this conversation with Clarence Schuler.
Clarence, thank you so much for being on the podcast today.
Clarence: Well, Tony, thanks for having me. I appreciate it.
Tony: I'm really excited to jump in and talk a little bit about this latest resource. Finding hope in a dark place. One of the questions that I love to ask people though before we get into the resource itself is a little bit about your calling. How would you describe the calling that God has placed on your life?
Clarence: Well, I think the calling God's put on my life is that, Most people wanna be loved and that most people respond to God's love. And so my job is trying to love them with God's love and then see what happens. So I don't really have an agenda. That's what I'm trying to do. Before I was trying to do this and that, but that seems to work really well and [00:02:00] people seem to appreciate me just loving them and with no pressure and see what happens.
So that's kind of fun. That's what I try and do. That's really my calling.
Tony: You know, I think that's interesting. I think that there's a lot of people listening who are like, man, Clarence, I, I wanna love people with God's love too. If, if you were gonna get super practical, like, what's that look like on a random Tuesday in, in April?
Clarence: Well, Tony, it's just simply you see somebody, like in my club where I work, where I work out, play tennis and stuff, a lot of times people come in and they won't initiate conversations. So I used to get an attitude and say, well, hey, if they're not gonna speak, I'm not gonna speak. Mm-hmm. And God says, you're representing me.
So when they come in now I just say, Hey, how you doing? And just saying a little hello. Has opened up doors to where one guy I did that with who had tattoos, SWAT stickers on, you know, stuff like that. Just during that conversation when he was thinking about committing suicide, he called me. Wow. And so, you know, I think just saying hello, being friendly can just [00:03:00] open all a lot of doors.
And Lou Grace Guy, he didn't commit suicide. That which was great. He did not. But I think we just gotta be friendly cuz most people will respond to someone else being friendly. But as Christians, Christ's followers. I think we need to initiate that. So that's, that's kinda what it looks like. You know, it's nothing really profound, it's just being willing to say, okay, I'll say hello first, even though maybe you are an employee here and you should speak to me first, but our being a Christian should trump that and we should just say, Hey, cuz it's all about serving.
Tony: Yeah, I, I think that that's right. All about serving. I I've noticed that you, so you, you've written, this is your 10th book, I think, which is incredible to think about. Yeah. That's wild. How, how do you know when God is speaking to you about where to go next? Because you've written on a lot of different topics from.
Racial reconciliation to what it means to be a, a godly man and everything in between. And then this la, this last one's all about mental [00:04:00] health. How do you discern God's voice in all of that?
Clarence: Well, what God typically does with me because I'm a preacher when I am coming out of something that he's teaching me.
He says, you need to share this. Mm-hmm. And so I think one of my ministries too is just being transparent. So when I was coming outta this, my deepest, darkest depression, I was at this fatherhood commission and the guy said, I want you to do devotions. And God said, you know, well you gotta tell him about your depression.
And I said, man, I said, God, that is not really cool, but. You know, he didn't repeat himself, so I knew how to do that. And I was stunned by response. I mean, unbelievable. People taking pictures of the slides, people going crazy. And and with a book, it's kind of been the same thing. And people just, and I've been amazed how many black women said, I'm so glad you as a man of black men are sharing about your depression.
Because so many men are short with depression. They wanna talk about it, you know? And so so that's kinda what God has me do. I just go through stuff and I share my stuff. [00:05:00] And it's very humbling, but if it helps somebody else, and that's kind of worth the price of admission, I guess.
Tony: Yeah. I'm curious about that.
What's it like for you to live so vulnerably, because a lot of your ministry is authenticity. Is authenticity, right? And you just put it all out there for the world to kind of deal with how it may what's that like for you?
Clarence: Well, well, like in this depression book You know, if you've, you've read it, you probably see, know why I'm so crazy, but it's just you know, people can relate to that.
Mm-hmm. I mean, when I, I spoke at a men's conference a couple weeks ago in Buffalo and there's 650 men and I shared about my battle with depression. The second key, know I talked about fear and overcoming our fear with their faith. And so many men said, you know what? I really appreciate you saying that.
Or they say your, that talk, you gave us more. It's just for me. And so, because we're not really addressing that a lot of times and, and because we're men, we just, we stuff it, we're socialized not to share our emotions. When guys do that, when they share, it's just like [00:06:00] kind of a freedom. So initially it's kind of embarrassing or humbling, but in the end, if someone, if it helps one guy, then I say, cool.
And it keeps me. It keeps me humble. It keeps me from thinking I'm all that, cuz my flaws are kinda all out there, you know? So I shared one of my books, my marriage book, about my pornography addiction and how God delivered me. And, and you didn't think too much about it. The book came out, but then a guy called me and said, Hey, I got a pornography issue too.
I go, oops, it's out there. I can't get it back. And, but, you know, he turns my misery into a ministry and so I just kind of roll with it.
Tony: I, I am curious to get your thoughts that the church doesn't do a great job of talking about mental health, and even though I've got my own counselor and I've, I've seen him for 10 years every month.
Okay. Whether I need to or not. And he's helped me through some of the roughest times of my life. Yet, I don't know that I'm great about preaching about it regularly. What are your thoughts on how the church, or what the church can do to help [00:07:00] you know, Kind of increase awareness around mental health
Clarence: issues?
Well, I think the way most of our church in America are, are guided by the pastor. Mm-hmm. Or, or the senior guy or the teaching pastor. And we've gotta help him. And in some cases, her, whoever the leader is become a little vulnerable. They don't have to tell their whole life story, but something they become comfortable with.
I would talk to a leadership and say, Hey, I really wanna talk about this. If it's personal, are you guys okay with this or bring somebody in to talk about this whole thing about mental health and particularly depression and loneliness? You know, the young, the newest youngest generation is probably the most lonely generation.
Yeah. And no one's talking to 'em. And so, and, and at least in what won't call it the name of denomination, but I did in the book, but the research shows that one denomination, 67% of their youth are leaving church once they go to college. Hmm. You know, it used to be 88%, so I [00:08:00] guess they're doing some things better, but they're leaving co.
They're leaving church when they go to college because they see the leadership from their perspective. It's not really relevant. They're, they're not approachable or they don't deal with them. Issues of social justice, which is really big for them. So I think art and the health issue is huge. And so I think some pastors gonna have to be like visionary enough to say, you know, maybe I'm not having a problem with depression or loneliness, but there may be people in my congregation and so I'm gonna try and tackle it.
You know, David struggled with it. Jeremiah struggled with it. I'm not sure if her backer struggled with it, cuz he's so eloquent, but, It was an issue for him and some, some issues. So I think there are a lot of guys in the, in the book, you know, Joseph struggled with a little bit depression when he was in prison for so long, you know, and unjustly.
So I think they're biblical examples that we could talk about it and help our congregation. So, and again, for pastor doesn't feel comfortable preaching about it, bring in someone he trusts to talk about it. [00:09:00] And then have a, like a town hall meeting afterwards, you know, later in the week or something where you could actually come and discuss, you know, create a safe place where people would talk about, Hey, I, I have these issues and, and define the difference between disappointment, depression, or loneliness.
Why do I feel lonely? Or the whole issue of anxi anxiety. So I, I think that would just be a tremendous service if pastors would do that.
Tony: I, I'm kind of curious, in your own life, how do you know when something is healed enough for you to talk about? Right, because I, I sometimes, no course, sometimes I think that we can preach through wounds and not through scars.
And you've probably heard that before. How, how do you know when you're like, okay, I, I can talk about this part of my life now. And how do you discern that?
Clarence: That's a really great question. I think with the depression piece, I felt like I was coming out of it. Yeah. I you know, my counselor was helping me and she was, you know, I, I was feeling [00:10:00] okay I wasn't necessarily great, but I was not I was not in the dark place anymore and so I felt I could kind of share at least.
What I was doing. And then she helped me realize, she said, well, you're not done through depression, but what's happening, you're, you're able to manage it more effectively. And so I just shared a few things that I was learning, not that I learned or mastered, but I, and I shared with a group when, when I shared it the first time.
I said, these are things, some things that are working for me, they may not work for you, but these are some things that are working for me. And I guess with the depression, I don't know about you, have you read the Bible, but when you're going through something, you, this verse jumps out. Oh yeah. Like you've never seen it before.
And you know, I, Isaiah 45 3 jumped out at me and it says in the darkness there are hidden treasures, secret riches. And it says, I will do this. So do you know that I'm the Lord your God, the God of Israel, the one who calls you by name. And so for me, I never thought God dealt with emotions, but when he said in the darkness there [00:11:00] are secret riches or hidden treasures, that one is said that darkness is not necessarily bad.
Hmm. The other thing is said to me that I didn't have to rush out the darkness. I didn't have to fake being fine because it's in that darkness that I'm gonna find hidden treasures of secret riches from God. And then it also said that God was with me in my darkness, so my dark place could actually be a holy place.
Hmm. And so those things really were very profound for me, and that began to help me gimme some hope, as I heard that, as I was kind of working through things. So, That was just encouraging enough to me. And so as I was, I could share those positive things without having all the answers to all, to every question about depression.
But I can say for me, this was helpful. And so when I was able to provide biblical principles, I think they helped a lot of people. So that's, that's how I do it. But, but I think, you know, he gives me a piece, okay, you can talk about this. So I really, he'll say, you need to talk about this. And so I, [00:12:00] and that just kind of gives me that piece that I can share.
Not so much being an expert, but I can just kind of share some things that maybe be helpful. Yeah,
Tony: I, I mean that's the essence of disciple making right? Is to share where we are, just one step ahead of where somebody else might be.
Clarence: Exactly. Yeah, exactly. That's exactly what discipleship is. Yeah. Do
Tony: you did you know when your darkness went from a scary place to a holy place?
Because I, I imagine that there's some people listening who feel like, You know, Dr. Clarence, my, my darkness doesn't feel holy at all. H h how Talk, talk to that guy or that gal who's listening that's like, man, it's more scary than
Clarence: holy. Well, you know, it was scary. I, most of my life I've been insecure.
Yeah. And so I've overcompensated athletically or whatever, and so I. My wife, her, her husband, her dad is a self-made millionaire. Very successful [00:13:00] guy. Well, I wasn't poor, I was poor. And so so I'm always trying to make more money going up to corporate ladder. And I had this really big job that was life-changing money to do some diversity training for quasi Christian organization.
Everything was going really well. I wasn't go into all the details, but you know, they paid me for my proposal, which they normally don't do. This president say loved what I was doing, cuz it, he said, your diversity training brings people together. So I'm thinking I'm in the house, right? Steven Kendrick prayed for me before I went into the meeting, so I'm thinking.
This is done deal Well, 10 days later, Tony, they called me and they say we decided to go in a different direction. Hmm. And it was so much money involved. I was gonna use the money to validate myself. Yeah. I just wanted this dark hole and I didn't wanna talk to anybody. I didn't wanna hear about God. I didn't want hear any Christian cliches.
When God closed one door, he opens another. Just leave me alone. And that's kind of where I was. And I, I just briefly wrote my newsletter that this job didn't go through. I didn't [00:14:00] say a whole lot about it. Monique, my counselor read through the between the lines and called me and said, you wanna talk about it?
And I said, no. But then and then God convicted me and he, and I said, you know, I counsel the people. God, I don't need somebody else. Why don't you just counsel me? And he was just totally silent. And when he is silent to me, that's no for, for me in our relationship. So I called her back very humbling and said, look, I'm pretty raw.
I'm not gonna use profanity, but I'm not in a good place. Mm-hmm. And she just began to walk with me and just say a little thing. She kinda walked on eggshells and so I was in a really dark place. I was not in a hurry. And I just, I just struggled. But as she would send me stuff or ask me stuff, she would gently push me.
And then that, that, that helped me some. And then with my My email system, I won't go into it. It doesn't allow me to put them on vacation. So people kept emailing me for stuff, so I'm still helping people in the midst of being frustrated with God and all this other stuff. So, [00:15:00] and then my wife wouldn't let me stay home.
She made me go to church and my, and so my pastor would say something every week, kinda a little subpoint. That would kind of give me hope, not for the rest of the week, but just for the next day. Mm. And so it was a very slow process of just kinda walking through stuff, being mad at God, being frustrated, feeling unworthy, feeling failure and just really just I was kind rock bottom.
But again, when I began to see certain scriptures they began to Kinda gimme me hope and I, I, I just hadn't seen God, that side of God dealing with emotions. Mm-hmm. And then I, I looked at Jeremiah 27 through 18 where he and j where Jeremiah's going off on God. I mean, Jeremiah basically calls God a liar.
Yeah. And you know, had I been gone, it was after he'd been gone, you know, but preach. But, but then through that, But through that encounter, I said, [00:16:00] wow, God's grace is greater than what I realized. And so, and then I learned that God's not so concerned about my initial response, but just the end result and that, you know, all those things just began to help me.
But I had this woman, this counselor, Monique in my head, who was just periodically saying, you know, God's with you, not preaching at me, but she was saying, This and this and this and, and this made me think she would send me stuff by Chuck Swindall, if you wanna read this. And I said, no, I don't wanna read it, but I'll read it.
And it was, I didn't, I didn't like what it said, but I knew I needed it. And so it was just, so, it's fighting my own resistance to stuff. But eventually I did wanna be right with God. But what was fun for me, or helpful for me was that he was there with me, walking me through it. And so I, I just wasn't faking being fine.
I wasn't trying to rush out of it. And then eventually I began to see some of the hidden treasures, some of the secret riches, [00:17:00] and I said, wow. You know, and so then my depression became an actual gift. Wow. Because I began to learn more about me and what my triggers, what's really important, and, and also I think God kills some stuff in me.
That may have been good in the past, but it was hindering me from walking close with him in the future. And some of the stuff he killed was to give so I could, he could give birth to new life. It made to do something else. So and so I, I'm, I'm, I'm not quite as important as I thought I used to be. I'm a little bit nicer than I used to be, and I'm a little bit more sensitive to people who I see may be struggling.
Yeah. And so those are really great gifts and. Stuff that I thought was really important is, is not so important anymore. What
Tony: a beautiful perspective. One, one of the relationships that you've already mentioned and you talk about in the book quite a bit is with Monique. Dr. Moe is affectionately called in the book, [00:18:00] which I love.
Yeah. I love and, and you know, I have a counselor too, and his, you know, around my house. We call him Steve, Dr. Steve and I, I'm curious if you could kind of give you have the, the gift of hindsight now. How, how important is it for men to have someone in their life where they can go and talk to, like a Moe or Steve or, you know that, that person?
Clarence: Well, I, I think it's invaluable. I had the privilege to leave my dad to Christ when I was 18. And we had a great relationship for about a year and a half, and then he was killed. Mm-hmm. And I did not have a, a man in my life. And then Gary Chapman introduced me to Christ when I was 16. And so I started gravitating to older men.
So I have four or five older men who have mentored me from different cultures, was really been important. So I, and then Dr. Moe has been great. I, I think it's important that we have it because even though I counseled other people, And I think I was okay with [00:19:00] that because God gave me the ability to help people.
There were things about me I still couldn't see. Yeah. And so I still needed someone else to look and see stuff I couldn't see. And so she was able to do that and that's just really helpful. And so I ha I found it older men or or an older wise Christian can really help someone like me who's younger, whose lived life.
To process. Mm-hmm. And I, I think's invaluable. And when you look in the scriptures, there's typically an older person around like Jeff Row who helped Moses. Yeah. You know, and so and so, you need that. That's, and so it's really important. So I, I just, I would say it's priceless. And for me, if I see an older guy who's got something on the ball, I just ask him.
I said, Hey, can I spend some time with you? I said, can I take you to lunch? Can I pick your brain? And they love it. Cuz a lot of times older men feel like no one's really needs them. Yeah. But they've [00:20:00] got so much wisdom and then our enthusiasm and our youth really inspires them. So it's, it's a win-win for both.
Tony: Yeah. One of the things that we say around this podcast a lot is that everybody needs aall and everybody needs a Timothy, you know, and finding that balance of both is how we build the. A really robust kingdom of God on earth as it is in heaven. So
Clarence: yeah. Yeah. You do. Yeah. Yeah. In fact, today is tip your dad.
I meet one of my spiritual sons and at first he called me sick. I meet with you for and a half an hour every week. I said, okay. And then it expanded to an hour, sometimes an hour and a half. But what's funny, you know, initially he needed me, but I found out I needed him too. Yeah. And it became a win-win for both of us.
Tony: Hey guys, just pausing this conversation with Clarence to remind you that now is the time to subscribe to the Spirit and true CK the Spirit and True CK is a blog that goes out every single week, and it's all about helping you lean into what it means to be a spirit led leader. We have [00:21:00] resources from all the Spirit and truth team.
We all pour ourselves into it. So whether you lead a small group, a church, or just your team at work, if you wanna lean in to being spirit led. As a leader, this is a perfect resource for you. It goes straight to your inbox twice a week. To subscribe, go to spirit and truth.ck.com. One, one of the places that you start in the book is this idea about triggers and I'm fascinated with triggers.
I, I've really spent some time looking at some of my own. I'm wondering if you could kind of give the podcast family a working definition of what triggers are. And maybe talk through, how do we spot out, out what our triggers might be in our life that we may not even be aware of?
Clarence: Well, I think for me and I said this earlier, mine was insecurity.
Mm-hmm. You know, I, I still battle that. So when you are insecure, there's a natural tendency, your trigger could be approval of other people to be approved by someone else, and, [00:22:00] and that gives you whatever validation. And so that's, I, so I think seeking validation from other people and God can, it can be a trigger.
And unfortunately, that's not a really good thing because the only God can validate us. Yeah. And so, and when we're trying to get that, that validation, it can be really a selfish thing. It's all about me. And so then my perspective is all can be all messed, messed up you know, with anxiety or, or Or depression.
Depression goes from disappointment to a long period of time of disappointment, which is what we didn't call depression. Mm-hmm. And so we have to ask our questions, you know, what causes us, why is I disappointed about that? Or it's okay to be disappointed, but why did I stay? Why did that disappointment linger for so long?
So, so those things can, can really hurt us in that process. And I, and I think for me As I went through this depression in [00:23:00] Genesis one verse 26 through 28, you know, God the Father is with the Trinity and he says, let's make some humans. Hmm. And in my sanctified imagination when he says, I imagine the Holy Spirit leans over to Jesus and say, you know what?
If the Father makes him humans, You're gonna have to go to Earth one of those funny licking bodies and live a perfect life. They're gonna tempt you. They're gonna even kill you. Then I don't have to come down there earth and raise you from the dead. And evidently Jesus says, father, go ahead and make some humans.
And what's significant about that, with God being omniscient, he knows we're going to sin. He knew Abony even gonna sin. Mm-hmm. But he made him anyway. So the first thing I tell people is that one God wanted us. Knowing we're gonna be imperfect. Yeah. The other thing he, he says three times in those verses, he made us in his image, why?
I call it his dna. N a. Hmm. Well, because we have God's dna, n a, we have value, we have purpose, and we have a destiny. And so all that is, and then verse 28, [00:24:00] some Hebrew scholars said, verse 28, verse says, blessing that God goes, wow. And so like when a baby's born, the parents go, wow, the grandparents go, wow. Mm.
And the reason they go, wow. Because they see a reflection of themselves in the baby. Well, because we have God's d n a. When he looks at us, he goes, wow. Because he sees reflection of himself in us. And so I say all that to say that we as Christians are Christ's followers. Well, if you're not a Christ follower, that we should have self worth, not self worship.
Hmm. And a lot of times we tend to have poor self images. And so as I have a good self-image because God has given me this, I have self-worth and have value. That really paints a whole different picture of how I approach things and how I look at things. And it just kinda, I don't need you or somebody else to validate me, to make me feel that should come from the Lord.
So, so I try and encourage people now, and almost every time I talk I throw that in there somewhere because I'm always speaking to somebody. [00:25:00] Who's got poor self-image or someone who's thinking life's not worth living. And if I can say, if the God of all creation feels this way about you, no matter what other people say, that should make you feel special.
And so I think it's important. So when we have our triggers of fear of taking a test, you know, or, or interview for a job, or if I don't get it, it means this. Well, no, it doesn't mean that. And then it's that whole idea of trusting God. That his, his sovereignty, he knows what's best. You know, if I'd gotten this job and made this serious life changing money, it'd been worse than it ever could have happened to me.
Sure. Because I would've thought that I did this and it would've been about me. And I think that just would've set me up for failure long term.
Tony: One of the things that we say around here a lot is that if you're not dedicated to your disciplines, you'll be destroyed by your
Clarence: distractions. Oh,
Tony: wow. Yeah.
And so I always love to ask people what are some of your daily [00:26:00] disciplines? I mean, obviously you've made some serious mental shifts, you've got practices, you've got rhythms. What can we steal from your life that might be applicable to one of ours?
Clarence: Well, the first thing I do, I, I spend time with God pretty much every day.
Yeah. I'm reading a different version of the Bible. I'm reading, like if I've read one version for a while, I'll read a different version. I'm reading. The Bible from different cultures now. So I, so I, because I think different cultures help us see a glimpse of God we wouldn't see without him out there.
It's kinda like being married. Yeah. My wife helps us see a glimpse of God wouldn't see without her. So that's really important. And now I go to scripture. I go in my time in the morning and I try to do it first thing in the morning before I get caught up in date. And it is just to hear from God. It definitely be a mountaintop experience.
Right now I'm going through the part where he's talking about building a tabernacle. I, I don't necessarily get goosebumps by tabernacle, but but, but typically I just go like a little kid and, and when he says something, I think that's [00:27:00] really cool. I have a little notebook. I kind of jot it down and, and then I pray and it's just really cool and I just kind of give 'em that time and, and that, that helps me.
I think being married just a discipline that I'm, I'm always working on. It's trying to love my wife in a way that honors God. Yeah. And because my wife is a gift from God. So how I treat my wife is a reflection of how I'm loving God. So so that's, that's important then my girls and then how I treat other people.
So, and then something you touched on earlier, I have older men and a couple women who, who mentor me, who hold me accountable. Who one guy went to beat the Lord not too long ago, but he would, he held me accountable in regards to how I treated Brenda and I learned from him and still learning, you know, how to be a good dad and how to deal with adult kids and stuff like that.
So I just put things in my life that, that, that hold me and keep me accountable because [00:28:00] I am so prone to mess up. So I just try to get as much help as I can from different people and, and I think For me, my depression has helped me be a little more honest with myself. Yeah. You know why I'm doing this.
And I, not too long ago someone asked me to be involved speaking this big event that I wanted to speak at 20 years ago when I didn't make the short list. And now it's funny, the deadline's over with. The head guy said, I still just seen your proposal. And, and I, and he introduced all these people and I, and all these men famous guys.
And all of a sudden I caught myself. Old validation by these men and guys said, Hey, check it. You know, is that gonna make it a great event cuz you're meeting all these guys or, and he guided somebody said, you know, I just want you to know I can do this if I wanna do this. Yeah. And that was just really helpful for me.
And so I just kind of, I pulled back and said, they help me speak grave not, but guys are saying, Hey, I'm the one who generates that. And so I think having gone through depression, I was able to kind of catch [00:29:00] myself. And then I called my counsel and we talked about it and had a good talk. And, and so that was just really a good thing, that pre depression.
Mm-hmm. And I don't want anybody go through depression, but I, I probably would not have made that check. I was just, you know, this is God, because the bigger people, more people, more you know, so that was, that was helpful. And I just think I don't know. I, I just think that accountability for me is invaluable.
Tony: Yeah. I lately the Lord has just been talking to me about the 23rd Psalm and how you can't get to the anointing at the table until the Lord makes you lie down. And sometimes I think that, you know, he makes me lie down in green pastures, lead with me besides Stillwaters, you know, restore with my soul.
Like you can't get to the blessing that you're talking about unless you are willing to submit to where the Lord has you in a season. And it sounds like that was kind of the process for you.
Clarence: Yeah, I was not satisfied with me. Which man, I wasn't satisfied with God if I'm honest. [00:30:00] And I had to see him in different light.
I had to learn to submit. And you know that, that psalm you talk about and a new living translation is so convicting me cuz it says I have all that I need. Oh wow. And I was like, oh my gosh.
And that just, that messes with, I mean, I, I mean when it says you, I have all that I need, I mean that's like,
Tony: So
Clarence: so it's that, that was that was very humbling. I said, okay. And so it's just, it's for me, Tony, it's just places where I have to grow. Yeah. But now I recognize the growth and I, I still resisted time, but I would say I'm less resistant, you know?
Amen. Things I need to grow. And so that's a more accurate perspective. But you know what? I'm loving life. And the things I thought I always wanted, he's throwing in front of me so fast. Hmm. The ministry's exploding. I'm trying now to handle the transition [00:31:00] and God keeps saying, are you sure this is what you want?
Hmm. And, and so now I'm like, yeah, I think that's what I want, but I have to keep those disciplines of him first. My wife second the kids third, and then the ministry, and then, you know, this is about you. It's not about me. And so I've also had to realize that. I'm the messenger. I'm not the message. Yeah. And so I, it's not for me trying to share in his glory.
It's not by me being a great speaker, I'm just a mouthpiece. And so now that I know that, I feel like he trusts me. And so all the stuff that I thought I wanted in 2017 when I had my super bout with depression now it's like he said, I can give it to you now cause it doesn't mean anything to you. And I said, wow.
He said before it meant everything to you. And it would've destroyed you. And so I see his love and that, and that's like a great parent, you know? It's like, do you have children? Three. Three? Yeah. Can you imagine when one of 'em is really little and, and you holding their hand? Well, you're standing right at the [00:32:00] street corner right before you know, and cars are coming and they put their hand in your hand.
Hmm. But all of a sudden they see something that distracts them and they want, they, they're pulling your hand to get loose. They want to get something, but you see a car coming and you won't let go of their hand. Mm-hmm. Initially they don't appreciate it, but where they realize or not, you probably save their life.
Yeah. And so I feel that's kinda what what God did through allowing me to go through depression, because that's the way he get my attention. He probably saved my life in a lot of different ways. Now you
Tony: you kind of end the book. In a posture of grace, which I, I love, I, I love the idea of grace. I love what grace means.
And I, I thought I would be remiss if I didn't ask you to talk a little bit about what does, what does grace mean to you? And, and you know, I feel like we've kind of danced around it a little bit with the, the last answer a little bit, but it is almost like you knew where I was heading before I was going there, but can, can [00:33:00] you kind of give everybody a little bit of a, a, a, a working definition of grace and how you applied to your life now?
Clarence: Wow. That's a good question. I'm not sure how smart to give a working definition. I was. I, I look at grace. As something God gives me that I don't really deserve. Yeah. And for me, and so it's just fun. It's just, it's like, it's like ice cream, you know? It's something extra, it's an extra scoop. And so now I, I look at life in a different way that I'm, I'm more grateful, more thankful for things.
I, I think for me, there're less things that I feel like I need to make me happy. Mm-hmm. And that's just really having been a manipulator and trying to always get stuff. And so I, so I think the grace of grace was him giving me Dr. Moe in my life. Yeah. As someone who has such a great skill set. Who can look into my life and speak into my life and help me get closer to God.
I think that was really [00:34:00] good. I, I think I look at my wife who just is nothing but grace, a gift from God. Amen. Who? When I think about this woman, how she weighs on many hands on foot and she's very intelligent and not cuz she has to because she wants to. And so now it's like I'm asking my the lord, you know, how can I be a better husband?
Yeah. How can I serve her better? And so all those little things my kids are walking with the Lord struggling, so I'm gonna steal still single. But it's just the fact that he still wanna talk to you, spend time with you. Yeah. So, so I look at that as just really grace and. And it's fun when I go out.
I have so many friends who are not believers and what makes it fun? I, I just said hi initially and where I'm sitting on an airplane or, or at the club and we become friends and so, and then my life becomes enriched because what they share with me. Yeah. Or one guy we met on the plane, he's getting his masters, he's.
You know, white guy, he's going through this thing about diversity. I said, Hey, what's that say [00:35:00] about diversity? He said, man, I really, I really struggle with this. Can we talk? And, and so I show one of my books on diversity and we just striking this conversation, end up going to lunch. All of a sudden he shares this whole life with me.
Mm-hmm. Say I'm living with this girl. I'm 50 years old, never been married. We've been here five years, but it's not working out. He says, you seem kinda religious. I'm Catholic. He said, but I'm not really a great Catholic. He says, can we talk about that? I said, sure. But it just comes from saying hello on a plane that we go from there to having lunch and him pouring his life out to me.
So and I think that's great. So it's fun. It's cool, and I've learned stuff from him and, you know, it's just, you know, it's just kind of cool.
Tony: Oh man. So much goodness here. As this book is getting out into the world I, I saw an Instagram post from you about when the book was released. It was right around the time of, of Twitch's suicide.
Of course, those of you probably remember Twitch and from the Ellen Cho and, you know, just all, all [00:36:00] that stuff and that such a an, a life giving soul that was lost too much. My podcast family loves to pray. And your Instagram post was kind of a prayer request. I'm wondering if you might share a little bit about your prayer for this book so that we can come alongside you as it continues to go out into the world.
Clarence: Well, my prayer for this book is that we give people who are struggling with loneliness, depression, anxiety a little more hope. Hmm. That they probably have more hope and more choice in their life than they realize. Yeah. And it's just, it's not written for any condemnation, but that they have more choice and just to direct them to a deeper walk of God without preaching to them.
Yeah. That their life be better than they think it is. And that is, it's, it's worth living. And if even those who are considering death by suicide is for them to, Hey, just take a moment. I don't know how they feel. I almost, I thought I committing suicide myself. Not that I know how they feel. Hmm. [00:37:00] But if they would just think about those that may leave behind in the pain they would go through if they'll wait long enough to use their life would change for the better.
It's not a guarantee. And so, you know, don't rush, but just think about people, more people around you love you than you realize more than you realize. If they can't communicate to you the way you want to be communicated to, they'll love you so deep and passionate. So I, so, so don't do it. Please. You know, if you're thinking about it, you can call 9 88.
You know, but just if li you know, one of my former clients, he had thought about suicide. He was in a bad marriage for 20 some years. Things changed and he said he really neat things. He's so glad he didn't because life changed. Yeah. And now his grown adult son is now married. Mm. And he's having so much fun helping his adult son learn how to be a good husband.
So I just, so I, those are thoughts in the books that I just wanna create hope, a little more hope than people have without any condemnation.
Tony: Okay. I have [00:38:00] one more question for you, but before I ask it, I know that my listeners are gonna wanna find you all over the innerwebs. Where is the best place to learn all the things that God is doing in and through your
Clarence: ministry?
Well, they can go to my website, it's just clarence schuler.com where reports, there's no CML last name, so it's clarence schuler.com. And you know, if they go there, there are free videos from Relationships, merit or Single. They can email me through the website. And so all my propaganda, I mean, all my information's there, so that'd be great.
That's the best place to reach me.
Tony: Okay, Clarence, last question. I love to ask people, it's an advice question. I'm gonna ask you to go back and give yourself one piece of advice and the only difference is I get to pick the season of life that you're in. So I, I wanna take you back to the day that you turned in your very first book.
You're just really getting started in ministry, like things are [00:39:00] changing and you're putting yourself out there in new and profound ways. If you could go back and sit knee, a knee with that gentleman, that younger version of yourself, hold his hands, look him in the eyes, what's the one message that you're gonna give him?
Clarence: Oh, wow. That's a good question, man. You, you take me back. I think,
I think I would say one, congratulations for writing a book that's, that's, that's really important, is a good sense of accomplishment. Enjoy that. Especially for me cause I flunked outta school. So to come back and write a book is, you know, kind of neat. I, I think the other thing would be was that trust god in the process.
Mm-hmm. You know, don't be in a hurry. I think when most people write a book, you want to be successful, you wanna sell a hundred thousand copies. And and I, my goal was I really wanted to be an author and make a living by writing. And that was not the initial thing for me. But God [00:40:00] took the book and used it around the globe and it was really exciting.
But, so I would say to that young guy, you know, just let God work the process. You trust God in the process and you contend to be faithful in that, whether it becomes a best seller or not. So I, I think that's what I would, I think I would say. But So anyway. Amen.
Tony: Amen. Clarence, thank you so much for the generosity that you shared with your time today, your heart for all the ministry that you're putting out in the world.
I really value this time and I want you to know that when book number 11 comes out, get in touch with me. I would love to have you back on the podcast.
Clarence: Hey, Tony, thanks so much. He asked great questions and I really appreciate your spirit, so God bless you. I told you
Tony: guys we're gonna love Clarence. Such a great conversation.
I am so humbled and honored to be able to spend the time with him. I love, love, love the way that he talks about mental health, and I think it's something that needs to happen more and more in the church. I have a counselor who I adore, and I've been with him for so [00:41:00] long. He's such a gift to me. So if you're out there looking for help don't wait.
Now is the time. Get the help you need. You're worth it. You deserve it. Guys, I'm so thankful for you, for the community that we're building here. And remember, if you want follow Jesus, you must be willing to move.
