#244: Joël Malm: Connecting the Dots
A fascinating conversation with an author, speaker, and summit leader founder Joël Malm!
"I want to put an end to unnecessary suffering and put meaning behind necessary suffering."
https://www.spiritandtruth.life/
Links:
https://www.instagram.com/twmilt/
https://www.youversion.com/the-bible-app/
EP. 244
Tony: [00:00:00] Joel, welcome to the podcast. It's such an honor and a privilege to be with you today. You're in Texas right now, in the middle of the snowpocalypse. How's your family holding up?
Joel: We're doing good. We live out in the country. We just built a retreat center out here. I'm actually in one of the cabins right now.
Let's be the quietest place around. So we, I. We're, we've got everything ready with generators and gas, gas powered, everything, so we're good to go. I love it.
Tony: I love it. Well, I, I'm really excited to jump into your story and your latest resource, connecting the dots. Before I do that, I ki I love to kind of get a macro perspective and so I'm, I'm kind of curious, how would you describe.
The calling that God has placed on your life. You've done a lot of things over the years and just built this retreat center and you've done adventure, you've done all the things, but how would you kind of summarize this call?
Joel: Yeah, so I would say it comes down to two things. My, kind of, my two major callings are live with perspective, live with wisdom, and I kind of describe it simply [00:01:00] this way.
Stop unnecessary suffering and find meaning in necessary suffering. So there's some suffering we just create cuz we need a little wisdom. And when we've got it, we're like, oh, when I do this, I get this. So I love learning about those kind of principles that God's put into place. But then there's also some suffering in acts.
I wish the verse wasn't in there, but it says, through much suffering, we enter the kingdom of God. And when Paul says We rejoice in our suffering for suffering, produce, endurance and character, character produces hope. So I really think there's certain sufferings it's necessary suffering. Like I wish, I wish we got.
You know, through many donuts we enter the Kingdom of heaven, , but it's through much suffering. So how do you find meaning in it? So that's actually what the book I just wrote is literally about, it's stuff I coach people through is how do you find meaning in every season of life? God has been leading you, but you probably just couldn't see it at the time.
Life has lived forward, but can only be understood looking back. [00:02:00] Yeah, I,
Tony: I want to talk a little bit more about suffering cuz it's just so uplifting, . But you know, I've, I've, I've experienced suffering in my life as I'm sure all of us have all, all of, you know, the podcast family. And I never thought to myself in the middle of my suffering, this is unnecessary suffering.
How, how do you identify in the throes of the pain that you're. If this is necessary or unnecessary
Joel: suffering. Yeah, that, that's a hard one. So well, one, I, I believe that's what, you know, when Jesus, right before he left the earth, he says, guys, there's a whole lot more I'd like to reveal to you, but basically you can't handle the truth, right?
So I'm gonna send the Holy Spirit, he's gonna guide you into all truth. And I think one of the humbling parts of walking with the Holy Spirit is, is always realizing, there's always more to know. So in every situation, I think part of the beauty of suffering is it forces us to look back to him and. Hey, is this something?
It's the job question. You know, [00:03:00] job is probably the oldest book in the Bible, which I think reveals a lot. People have been asking the question you just asked for a long time. like, like Hey. And you know, some of his friends are like, job bro, you must have hidden sin in your life and job's like, I don't think I do.
And you caused this cuz your sin, you know? and it's that real complex question. Those, those disciples where they're like, who sinned? That this guy was born blind? And Jesus is like, ain't nobody's sinned. This was to the glory of God could be revealed. And another verse, wish wasn't in there. That messes with my Theo theology.
Hmm. I think it's a perpetual wrestling we have to do with God and going, God is this something? Now obviously when you sin , the way of the transgressor is hard. It says in Proverbs there's certain suffering that just through sin and not understanding how the world. We get it, you know, the borrower is slave to the lender.
That's, that's the principle. That's right. It says, it doesn't say, don't take out a loan. It just says when you take out a loan, you will be in slavery. So that's the tricky part of it. But I think humility is just constantly saying, Lord, [00:04:00] is this something I'm, I'm, I'm supposed to, I, I could have avoided, or or is this part of something you're working through me?
And the really complex part about. In the end, even the stuff we create my, my mentor used to tell me, Joelle, God has already accounted for you stupidity in the plan. Mm-hmm. . So I think somewhere in there he always manages to pull out a win. But man, we can make it a lot harder in the process. And that's where I say the stop unnecessary suffering is, is like, how do I.
How do I learn some of the principles he's put in place, but it's a perpetual stroke because I'm, I mean, I got melanoma last year, right? Right in the middle of this crazy stuff, finishing a book, building a retreat center. And I'm asking myself, you know, with the doctor's, like, it's all random. And I'm like, well, what did I do?
You know? And I don't know. It's, it's just becomes a mystery, you know? And. , thankfully the Lord healed me of it, is a miraculous healing. But I go, what do I need to do to not have that happen [00:05:00] again? And the doctor's like, it's totally random. I'm like, I, I just refused to believe it's totally random, but.
I don't know. So
Tony: I, one, one of my mentors always says, well, Tony, it's just the epistemic consequence of sin. Like we live in a broken world with broken people. Mm-hmm. , and it's just broken. And I'm like, well, that's dumb. I, I need a better answer than that. .
Joel: I need an answer. That's right.
Tony: Yeah. Oh, one of the things I hear as, as I hear you talk about your relationship with the Lord, Is you have, it seems like you, you're just drenched in scripture.
I I love to get to people's daily disciplines. What, what are some of the things that you do daily to stay connected and to stay cognizant of, of what's the Holy Spirit and what's the burrito you ate the night
Joel: before? Yeah. So I I am convinced that there are seasons in your spiritual walk with God, and each season requires a different discipline.
There was a time in my twenties when [00:06:00] my discipline, I literally, I prayed for an hour a day. Hoel. Can't do that anymore. . I have tried and tried and tried, and I just get frustrated with myself. So I'm like, all right, Lord, clearly this ain't happening. What do we need to do here? So right now, what my discipline looks like is, I tip.
Well, it's weird. Here's another thing about seasons, right? That's funny cuz that's what connecting the dots is about. It's about recognizing what stage you are in in each season of life. And right now I'm in a season where like, God, I feel like God wakes me up at 3:00 AM and I'll have a bunch of clarity.
And I've learned if I don't get up and start just pounding away at my computer. So for me right now, prayer looks like writing. Hmm. I, I kind of figure out what. What's going on in my heart and mind through writing. And for some reason, I mean, right now that works. I wouldn't have earlier in my walk, that wouldn't have been the key to the answer to it.
And I know some people aren't. That's not, that's how, what works for them. But I, for me, when I feel like [00:07:00] I've got some clarity on something, cuz clarity's rare these days, I don't let that moment pass. I jump out of bed and I just start writing And prayer. I think prayer looks like writing for me right now.
Every morning I read one kind of. So, right, right now I'm reading a book by Gregory of Nisa who's big, big hot name in pop Christianity. Nobody's ever heard of him, but Gregory of Nisa. And then I read I read my Bible obviously with it. And oftentimes these great works, you know, they kind of come at an angle from the Bible and then I go read that passage.
And then I usually read some sort of, you know, current in the hot thing everyone's reading. So like I, I'm going back through right now, Jordan Peterson's beyond order. Yeah. So
Tony: I, I love kind of your idea about seasons. One of the questions that I wrestle with myself is how do I know when it's time to change the season?
I was curious if you had any thoughts on like like when is the right time [00:08:00] to shift? How, how do you know when you're going from winter to spring or spring to fall or whatever? .
Joel: Yeah. So great question. It's like you're setting me up for talking about my book . Because I I, you don't, I don't, I can't change the snowstorm.
Yeah. You don't get to change it. You have to embrace it. And my, my basic premise in the book is this, that in every season of life, there's about nine stages and you'll know when it happens, right? So the first thing that happens when a season's about to change is there's a turning point. , sometimes it's something you were calculating for the baby was born.
The move across the country, sometimes it's something you asked for. Sometimes it's something was totally unask for like a melanoma diagnosis. Hmm. But the season starts to shift. Right. And when, when I was young, we moved to Central America and within about three weeks of being there, we lived in Guatemala.
We woke up and it was my first experience as an earth. And the house was just shaking. We all ran out into the street. Well, over the next few days, we had a series of earthquakes and the volcanoes just started going nuts. So there's this haze in the sky, it's [00:09:00] dark. It's like you can't even see the sun.
The ground is shaking, and I freak. I'm freaking at him. I'm like 11 years old. I tell this missionary there. I'm like, I did we move here at the end of the world? He goes, no. He goes, that always happens when a season changes. Guatemala has two seasons, a rainy season and a dry season. He said, when we're about to.
the ground starts to shake, the sky gets a little cloudy and hazy with, with volcanic ash. It's just a season change. And I realize that's kind of a picture of every season change. Mm-hmm. your ground beneath your feet starts to shake. You don't usually get to choose the adventure. The adventure chooses you.
The choice you have when a season changes, am I gonna embrace it? Or am I gonna, you know, like King Solomon, he says don't ask why we're the former days better than today for, it's not from wisdom that you ask such things. And I think sometimes we, life has changed, but we're still trying to clinging to the last season we were in.
And, and you just make yourself miserable. And in the book, I compare it to a guy, Tarzan, swinging through the jungle, like if he hangs onto the vine. That's been tried in two true. Be and [00:10:00] doesn't let go and grab the next vine, which he hasn't tested yet. He's just gonna be hanging there dangling in the jungle between two vines like a fool.
You have to at some point let go and move into the next stage to forward movement and life kind of forces you into it. I mean, I think we can clinging and hang on and, but we just get bitter and upset if we try and hang on too, too long. So that, that was a very long answer to the question. How do you know when it's time for a season to change?
I think the season change is on you and your decision. Is it like, am I gonna embrace this new season change because it's gonna move forward with or without you?
Tony: Well, one of the things that I see a lot in your content is this idea about looking forward and about like, kind of reaching out to grab that next vine sort of thing.
And then I, I kind of see it in, in your practices, you're building this retreat center and you, you kind of used to do, correct me if I'm wrong, but expeditions, like spiritual expeditions and, and so mm-hmm. , so. In my head. Right? Like and maybe I'm over theologizing this, which is a tendency I have sometimes, but like, you've gone from [00:11:00] a, a ascending ministry where you send people out to, now you're kind of a gathering ministry where you're bringing people in.
How did you, how, how did you know that this was the direction that God was calling you towards in terms of like, this is obviously a looking forward moment for you with these retreat centers and yet mm-hmm. It's, it's almost completely different. It's like a, a, a very different vibe than what you
Joel: were.
Yeah. Well, once again, life dictated the terms. About seven years ago, our daughter came into the world and I started realizing I can't be gone for nine weeks of the year climbing Mount Kilimanjaro or . I, I'll never forget my, my wife, she just kind of got used to me being gone and when we were just us, you know, and , I would tell her I'd be gone for a certain amount of time.
I remember when she was pregnant we were in the Grand Canyon. I had told her I'd be outta touch for seven days. We were raft in the canyon about three days in. She's like, I haven't heard from Joelle. And so she had to get on my website to figure out where I was and when I would be getting back. And I was like, , this is not gonna work.
[00:12:00] Sustainable. So one of the first shifts is I cut back on the trips when my daughter was born just knowing that we needed to do that. And then the second shift was during Covid. The whole world shut down. Right? And I was like, I need a place where people can come to us. You know, COVID was a major turning point.
I talked about those turning points for a lot of people. It kind of jolted them out of what their pattern was. And I realized we needed our own place. So we ended up buying 16 acres out here in the hill country of Texas, and just started building our own things. So I still do the outdoor adventures.
In fact, I got three trips this year. We'll be doing, we've got a hike to Machu Picchu. We've got a hike through Israel in the footsteps of Jesus. And then we have a hike in Maine. So we still do those, but now it's kind of more people coming here. And another thing I do is I, I coach a lot of pastors and kind of help 'em through challenging times.
And so this is a great place they can come and hang out and escape to.
Tony: I I see over and over again in your story that the importance of these like intentional [00:13:00] relationships how, how have you kind of built those in your life and. I mean, you, you've obviously created a, a calling out of that in terms of pouring into other people's lives.
And kind of help me understand your, kind of, your theology around intentional relationships. And anybody who listen to the podcast know that I love to talk about disciple making and this is kind of what this feels like. So can you kind of share with us your heart on that?
Joel: Yeah, absolutely. So. I have always had a, a very tight inner circle, and that formed in my teens.
Thank God it, I, I was talking to a guy last night. It's very hard to form that inner circle after your twenties. I don't know why that is. I've just watched this pattern in people's life that the people that really go far, Tended to build the tightest relationships in their early twenties or late teens.
So I have an inner circle. I have some mentors. The people I talk about in that book, connecting the dots, David and Karen, the ones that dragged me down to that horrible experience in Mexico, that was all their fault. But [00:14:00] they have been lifelong mentors of mine. I met them in high school. There's a statistic, I think the Baptist put it out recently that one of the long-term PE kids that stay in church and have their own relationship with God one of the co.
Patterns that they've seen is one of the three things that they have is one of the things they have is, is an adult outside of their parents who connected with them before they turned age 16. Wow. And started leading them on their spiritual walk. And so they were, that for me, David and Karen have been forever.
Whenever I write a book, I send it immediately to Karen and she, if she doesn't like it, she tells me . So I'm with, I'm on the phone with him every week. My, my friend Wes, my best friend, Wes Peterson, like, . I've known him since high school. And he told me once, he said, you know, if you wouldn't have pursued this relationship in college, I probably would've just kind of checked out.
Cuz he's like, I was just, life was busy. But he said, you know, you intentionally pursued it. And he's like, I'm so glad you did that. And like, yeah, I'm the better friend in this relationship. I know that. But joking.
Tony: I have one friend who calls it the reacher. I'm the reacher here. I'm the. [00:15:00]
Joel: Yeah, there, there tends to be one that kind of like, because there's just some fr I had a friend one time and we were tight, man.
He's like, look, I'm about to get deployed to, to, you know, the Middle East. I'm horrible at keeping in touch, so this is probably goodbye forever. I was like, , what? We have phones, man. Like what in the world? And the crazy part about it is my inner circle for years, because I grew up in Guatemala and I met all these people in Guatemala.
They've been scattered to the four winds. Mm-hmm. another guy in my inner circle right now, he's in Egypt. . So I've got these group of about five people that I'm in touch with at least once every one to two weeks, and we just talk about what's going on in each other's lives. And they, it's funny, they'll notice if I, if I haven't posted a blog, I post a, I send out an email every Monday morning.
If I haven't sent out an email for like two weeks, I'll, two or three of 'em are right. Be like you. Okay? I've noticed there's not like three weeks without an email. It's like, oh yeah. So it's, it's pretty cool having that, you know, I think, I think the challenge with this type of ship is. , I mean, who wants people in your business?
Yeah. Until you want [00:16:00] people in your business. That's right. . So it's you know, I don't want, you know, people checking up on me or, but then you want people checking up on you, but you don't get people checking up on you until you've allowed people to check up on you. So, Yeah.
Tony: And, and the hard part is right, like nobody knows that you need somebody checking up on you until you didn't have someone checking up on you, and you almost blew up your whole life.
Joel: Precisely. Yeah,
Tony: precisely. You, you mentioned that you coach a lot of pastors you know, pastoral burn outs. Real, and, and I've, I have experienced this myself as in the local church for 10 years and then now I'm in Parachurch cuz I, I just, honestly, I just needed a breather for a lot of various reasons.
What are some of the things that you're seeing in the pastors that you're coaching and as they come to as you come to know their story more and more, what are, what are some of the trends that you see in the church? This is a me question more than it is for my audience, cuz I'm so curious about it.
Joel: Yeah, [00:17:00] well, I mean, COVID did, did pastors in you know what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger? Well, a lot of 'em, it showed that they were just, they weren't as strong as they thought they were or they were in it for the wrong reasons. I was talking to a worship pastor the other day and he is like, I did not realize how badly I needed the congregation out there for my affirmation until covid when I'm.
Singing, singing to a TV camera for seven months, you know? And I, I think, I mean, struggles reveal what's in our heart, you know? It, it, and, and I think for a lot of guys, it, they realize that they were in it for the wrong reasons or the other challenge is just people. People be crazy, man. Like God bless 'em.
But just the pass, it was a no win situation for pastors during covid. Like if you shut down the church, you're compromising to the government. If you keep the church open, you're endangering the old people. Right? So I watch this, this one church, this, I won't name the denomination, but they're Baptist. It [00:18:00] was the pastor's like, we gotta shut it down.
We have a lot of senior citizens. So the younger people started meeting at one of the elders' houses and they would watch the live stream from the elder's house. Well, the boar, the pastor got upset about it and he said, you're starting a separate church. And he's like, we're watching your message. And he's like, no, you're trying to split the church.
And they're like, but we're watching your message at my house. Nope. We either all gather together with me overseeing it or not. And I'm like, that guy didn't last. He, he wa washed out, you know? Sure. But it was, it's been interesting. I, I, I think, I feel bad for some of 'em, but for some of 'em, like you, this is actually good for you because you needed to see what was really going on in your heart and yeah.
People all the time are like, oh, I'm sorry. You know, I had a guy the other night, he wrote me this crazy drunk, angry text. Yeah. And the next day he wrote me and he's like, I'm so sorry for a blah, blah, blah. This what happens. I'm like, Hey, look, the great news is it's all out there now we know what's in your heart [00:19:00] now you can deal with it.
And he was like, I'm so ashamed. I'm like, just don't be ashamed. Just deal with it. And I think sometimes in pastors, I couldn't cut it. Well, it, it revealed something about you, you now know. And so don't be ashamed. Deal with it.
Tony: So how, how do you, how do you tell pastors to deal with it, right? Because I, I'm sure that there's a lot of people listening right now who are, like, they're having a hard time looking for, they're having a hard time, you know, putting everything, I mean, what's that, what's that first step that somebody can take to to acknowledge that they're in a season of change and, you know, I, I, yeah.
I mean, they might see the turning point, but it, it feels like a a thousand pound elephant sitting on their.
Joel: Well, okay. So, wow. There's a rabbit hole here cuz I mean, we can talk about this for an hour. Yeah. Cause I
worked
Tony: with a lot of, I got, I got nothing but time and you're, you're snowed in all. So let's go.
Joel: You can, you can edit out whatever is boring, but for, okay. I literally just this week has been working with a pastor. He had to shut his church down. It never recovered from Covid o d He's devastated cuz [00:20:00] he's back doing a job. That was what he was doing before he started pastoring. And to, to him it's humiliating.
And first of all, I am just increasingly convinced God does not need us. Amen. Like he just brings us in on it just for his joy and for our fulfillment. He does not need us, but he's way more concerned about what he's doing in the individual. . I, I just, I mean, that's why I see God waste, God wastes so much money.
It's just insane how much money he wastes. Have you ever noticed that? Yeah. Like, I'm trying to save him money and he just doesn't seem to care. Right. Like, but he's more worried about what he's doing in the individual. And I think we forget that sometimes. And we, we elevate this, this role of pastor, and so my first statement would be this, do not get your identity from what you do.
Mm-hmm. . And this is for. and a lot of pastors, they get their identity from what they do, and then it's taken from them and they're devastated and, and, and they're missing the point. So a good friend of mine, [00:21:00] I was coaching him through this recently, and during Covid he stepped aside from, from ministry and he went, went into real estate.
And man, there's a lot of pastors doing that going into real estate. I think my dad and I did a podcast about that, about pastors going into real estate because it's a, you know, it's a low barrier for entry. It's quick to get in. He said, you know, I'm so glad you encouraged me that it's not a failure to step out of ministry.
And I say ministry in air quotes because everybody does ministry, but it's a church. Really what I asked him to do is step out of his church job. Hmm. Because he said, I got out before I got bitter. But what happens with a lot of pastors and, and there's an interesting, this is a really interesting trend right now.
Peter Zion talks about this. The baby boomers are the, the generation that has lived longest in American history ever, and they've needed more money to keep their style of life. So they've stayed in their roles for a much, much longer time. And what happened is they ended up passing over a generation guys like me, and so [00:22:00] guys like in our forties, we probably should have been taking over about five to seven years ago for the baby boomers.
But most of us are like, I'm not sitting around waiting for this anymore to be in senior leadership as pastors. So they checked out and did something else. This is example of my friend, he went into real estate, right when he is ready to do ministry, I think at his peak, right? But the boomers held on too long, and so now the weird church trend that the church is seeing is, this is so weird.
I hear this so much. I'm working with a guy right now who's doing a doctoral dissertation on this. The boomers are looking to the people that are like in their forties to take over the, I think they're the Xers. Is that what we. And I'm assuming we're about the same age in me. I know. Yeah, we're two.
Yep. Yep. They're looking for us to take over and most of us have checked out and gone and done our own thing. We're running our podcasts. We've got our own parachurch ministry, and they're like, okay, it's time for y'all to take over. Like, no, we're doing our own thing. So they're having to look to the millennials and the mental, and the framework the millennials have versus the boomers is so different.
Mm-hmm. . Craziness is about [00:23:00] to ensue. So they're like, we're gonna hand it off to this young millennial. And the way the millennial starts running things, the boomer goes back and says, no, no, no, no. You can't do it that way. And so they get angry and frustrated and it's just really complicated things. So the people in their forties that probably should be taken over have checked out.
The millennials are ready to go. They're like, let's do it. Let's take over. But what the boomers are expecting from them is so different. Different than what they think how church should be runs. It's a very interesting dynamic. So a lot of millennials get into the role, either get canned very quickly by the board of boomers who are like, that's not how you're supposed to run things Sunday.
They're like, well, you said you wanted change, that's why you brought me on. Yeah. But not that kind of change. Right. we want, you know, so it's a very tricky thing because you have this demographic issue too, where the baby boomers. They just held, I, I hate to say it this way. They held on to power leadership, not power, but leadership too long.
And the the next group behind them, they literally had to skip over a generation because we went and started doing our own thing. You'll see that trend all over. I was talking to a church in [00:24:00] Washington just this week, and they said, They're trying to correct that error, but they can't find anybody that wants to take over at this point.
Tony: Well, so, so, so this is a conversation I have with some of my peers, right? Because they're like, I don't know that I ever want to go back to church cuz we have so much freedom not being in church, right? Yeah. And so, and you're like, well, I get to serve the Lord, I get to do what I want. I get to create all this content.
I, I don't have to, I'm, you know, I don't have to take that kind of , some of those harder requests that come from being a lead pastor. And, you know, there's a, obviously there's a burden with leadership and, you know, when you're, I mean, how, how many, how many employees do you have working for you?
Joel: It's just me and I won it that way. Right. That's exactly, and
Tony: that's . Yeah, that's exactly right. I
Joel: had some people for a while, but I'm like, I don't wanna be in charge of anybody. Man, that's a horrible idea. . Yeah,
Tony: that's right.
H how, how does God tell you what to write about? Because I, I, I, I see this very vast, diverse kind of places where you've got your hand [00:25:00] in. How, how did you know that connecting the dots was the next right thing to write?
Joel: Most of it's just from listening to people. Mm. You know, as a counselor, I have a master's degree in counselor.
I counseling. I, I just spend hours listening to people and if you really listen, you know, here's a, here's a truth of counseling, and this sounds so judgmental, but it's true. People will tell you pretty much everything you need to know about them in about five minutes if you'll just listen. Yeah. Now there's nuance and layers of complexity, but the core.
comes out in about the first five minutes if you're a listening ear. So I just listen. And one of the, the one of the struggles I heard over and over from people is my faith man. Like, I feel like I'm losing my faith and they're not actually losing their faith. What's happened is they're in the stage of the journey called the Dark Cave John of the cross called it the Dark Night of the Soul, where all of a sudden.
You have to enter the dark cave, empty handed in alone, and God forces you [00:26:00] to look at some things. Carl Young says, the thing we need most will be found where we least wanna leak. Look right. Where God kind of forces us to, to release all of the protections we had around us, our identity from what we do, what we have, and then we face off with God and we, we sometimes emerge going, I don't know if I have the same kind of faith, but it's just, A simple faith anymore.
It's a new layer of complexity and depth in your faith. And so I just kept hearing that from people and I'm like, you're not losing your faith. This is part of the journey of becoming all that God intends you to be and, and you're, you're probably realizing maybe for the first time that the God you serve has actually been something you created in your mind, not the real God.
Mm-hmm. . So, and that doesn't mean your faith wasn't valid, right? But it's learning deeper and deeper layers of who God is. He's infinitely complex. Was it St. Augustine said if he's knowable, if it's knowable, it's not God. Right? And there is a knowability to God. That's the paradox of our faith, right?
There's a knowability to God, [00:27:00] but there's this vast unknowability of God where you're just always going. It's back to that job question. Or job at the end, he's like, God's like, let me start asking you some questions. Job. Where were you when I formed Leviathan? Where were you When I plunged the depth and job's like, all right, I'm, I'm out.
You win. I'll go with, you know, as King David says, I, my heart is not proud. I have not concerned myself with things too great and marvelous for my understanding. I'm gonna humble myself. I'm gonna follow you right? Walking through the haze. I'm gonna trust you in that. So mostly, again, another long answer, just listening to people, and that was the thing I heard a lot of people is they're like, did I miss God?
Did I do something wrong? I'm like, no. This is part of the pattern of his work.
Tony: Yeah, I, I think often that I, I want to know God, but I don't want a God that I understand. True. If God fits into my box. That's so true. We're all in big trouble. , right, right. . Very true. [00:28:00] I, I, I do want to talk about your podcast with your dad.
I, I, I, as I was getting to know your story a little bit you and your dad have, have created this rhythm of podcasting. So two questions. What brought you guys to that conclusion and what have you learned about your dad as an adult? Podcasting with him that you didn't know as a child?
Joel: What I've learned about my dad is you know, you talk about privilege.
Yeah. You know, that's the hot word right now. I have ridiculous privilege having had a father. He's the most man. He's the person who's most like Jesus that I know. Mm-hmm. That is the one thing that will just forever be true about my dad. There's so many things that he taught me that I, I didn't even realize, and a lot of what our podcast is is just unpacking things I learned from him that I didn't even realize I learned from him.
A lot of people are like, wow, you know, so much wisdom in your books. I'm like, well, about 97% of it is my dad . I've just, I've just repackaged it in my [00:29:00] brain the way I, the way I do it, but it's stuff I learned from him and just watching more than anything. I watched him. and it was his courage. You know, he moved us to Central America in the middle of a civil war.
Not generally the wisest decision, but he knew God was calling us and it was the best thing that could have happened for us. But I've just watched him do that. I've watched him live humbly. , he's always open to the fact that he may not know something and that's a hump. Yeah. So many dads, you know, I'm right, you're wrong.
And, and dad would actually apologize to me. Yeah. You know, Hey, I got that one wrong. I got that one wrong. And, and people think that shows weakness, but it actually showed me, my dad is freaking awesome. And I mean, here I am at 45, he's still my favorite person to hang out with besides my wife. So much so we do a podcast.
Tony: So you have a little girl, seven year old. I, I love to steal good practices for disciple in the next generation. And it, it's a interesting kind of thought process, right? You, you've got a dad who who is the living example of Jesus in the world for [00:30:00] you. How are you doing that for your daughter?
Joel: All right, so this is gonna get me in trouble. I think one of the number one keys, so there's stuff I do. Right, right. But she spends eight hours a day at school. Mm-hmm. , and I heard, I heard, I think it was Vodi Baum, say a few years ago. Don't send your kids to Caesar and wonder why they're coming back as Romans.
Okay. I think Christian education is so, so, so important. That reinforces was that what I'm already teaching at home? And I just see so many parents and man, they do the thing at home, but then they send their kids off to the wolves and not, listen, not all public education is wolves, but if you're not acutely attuned to what's being taught to your kid I, I think Christian education is, is the way you need to go.
And. It. It's a holistic approach. I was in Christian education my whole life. I [00:31:00] was either homeschooled or at a Christian school and there's just only so much you can teach. Yeah. At home. And then there's the influence at school. And if they're not getting the Bible pumped into them, you know, people all the time are like, how do you know so much Bible?
I'm like, because I was forced to memorize it at school. I to graduate high school. I had to quote the whole book of Philippians, man. and, and I'll be preaching sometimes and a verse will come out. I'm like, wow, I haven't thought about that one in a while. But if it's in there, you're word. If I hid my heart that I might not sin against you, if it's in there, it will come out, right?
Mm-hmm. , and there's only so much memorization I can do with her at home. There's only so much Bible reading we can do at home. I mean, there's, at some point you just gotta turn on Bluey, which is the hot show for seven year olds right now. Yeah. I, I just, I can't do any more discipleship. You can watch Bluey.
But, but then there comes a point and watching what they watch on tv, like we're super strict about what she watches on. . But so much of it is just creating boundaries for them and frameworks for them to succeed, and, and that's where I'm, I'm an avid supportive, like if I have to take out a second job.[00:32:00]
I will do it to make sure she's in Christian education, her entire upbringing. And I know that gets hard for some, some parents, we've got multiple kids. But most Christian schools, they have a, a cap on that stuff anyways, so it's funny, I'm like, I'm offload it on Christian education, but I, I think you have to live it.
First of all, your kid sees when you're not living it, you know, but when you live it and then you reinforce it with Christian education, I think that's the key discipleship model, which fits in again, with that thing we talked about earlier in the conversation. , the kids that stay in the church had another mentor besides their parents, but before they were age 16 that walked along with them.
Tony: Yeah, I, I see that idea about partnership there was, is really what you're saying is that you need, you need a partner for eight hours a day instead of someone who could be an adversary and, you know, you just kind of started with that same base point of of what that looks like. . I, I, speaking of partners, I, I do wanna ask about your marriage just a little bit because you such a you're very in your post, right?
You're very uplifting to your, [00:33:00] your wife's blessing for all the adventures and all the things that you do. How, how did you get to a place that is such a well, it feels like you're doing ministry together, even though. She's not always with you on the trips or, you know, I, you guys are clearly united in a, in a vision and mission for what you guys are called to, I I think there's probably somebody listening right now who wants that in their marriage.
What, what words of wisdom do you have for 'em? Yeah.
Joel: Well, first of all quick story. When we were engaged, When my brother, when my sister and her and my future brother-in-law were engaged, they were just curious how compatible they were. So they both got on eHarmony to see if it would match them up and it matched them up.
Oh, wow. And they're like, we're perfectly compatible, you know? And eHarmony uses the Myers-Briggs profile. It's a very consistent, internally consistent thing. So I was like, Emily, let's try that. So she filled it out. She filled out, she didn't wanna do it. She's like, this is stupid. I'm like, come on, let's see.
Let's see if it's your worst. I don't see. I, I spent the hour to fill out the form and then I got this [00:34:00] screen that popped up and it said, essentially it said, we're sure you're a really nice person, but there's nobody in our database for you,
So I got rejected by eHarmony. So my point is this, apparently we're very incompatible. we're like the, we're the total opposites. The, the core thing is we're gonna serve God and her father modelled us for her as well. We're gonna serve God no matter what it costs us. Mm-hmm. That's what unites us. When we moved out here to this retreat center, we downsized.
We're living in a, in a tiny home right now, but she was so passionate about this vision too, and I didn't just push it forward. I waited for God to speak to her directly and he does. And so all that to say is I don't think. I, I think it has more to do with a unified vision around what you're trying to accomplish for the kingdom.
And we have that same vision now. We're total opposites on everything we like. I like documentaries. [00:35:00] She likes like crazy. I can't handle the shows she watches. They're too intense. I like to read for a break. She sh well, she likes to read too, but she likes to read fiction. Right. So we're total opposites, but we're unified around what we're, we're, we're, we're.
We feel called to do. We've also learned, there's just certain stuff we don't work together well on. Mm-hmm. We worked at a church together for a while. Did not go well. That only lasted about six weeks. And I'm like, either you gotta quit or I gotta quit cuz this ain't working. So I was the worship leader, so she had to quit.
But it's, it, it's other, another thing I've, I've, I've learned too with us is, and this is some people do not like it when I say this, so I have to qualify what I'm about to say. You have to learn to fight Well, yeah. Jordan. Jordan Peterson says, contend with one another. That's probably a better word.
Cause a lot of people in their mind when they hear fight, it's like a negative connotation. [00:36:00] Emily and I, we, we, we are constantly, it feels like constantly in conflict, but there's a couple terms we have before the conflict. One of 'em is we're never getting divorced. Like the D word is not an option. Sure.
We don't even say it. We don't even say the word. It's a boundary. You don't even say that. You don't even threaten to leave. If we get in a fight, you don't leave the house now, you may go to the other side of the house for a while. So we, we have some terms when we have disagreements and we disagree all the time.
Man, I, one of the things in counseling I've seen with the marriages that blow up mm-hmm. , like literally just blow up, is they're like, we never fought. I'm like, that's your problem. You had all this stuff sitting under the surface and you thought peace was compliance and backing down. That's not peace.
Peace. Wrestling together, well, rubbing, bumping up against each other. Wounds from a friend can be trusted and then coming to an agreement in the middle. Otherwise, it's just tyranny. The stronger personality, overpowering, the weaker the [00:37:00] person that thinks they're bringing peace by just backing down. So I tell people all the time, and they don't like this, I, I wrote a blog about it and I wrote people, and they're like, this sounds like you're promoting communism in the marriage where there has to be a thesis and then an antithesis and then an overthrowing of the powers that be.
Yeah, you're taking away too far, man. The fact is there, there does have to be conflict. And the marriages that I've seen, I was just talking to a guy last week, he's like, dude, we never fought. I'm like, I'm sorry. That's your problem. You never fought. So resentment was building, resentment wasn't building for you because apparently you were the guy that was winning every time, but resentment was building for her.
So in our marriage, it's one of the things we always, people don't like it, but that's our best advice is learn to fight well and fight fair. Yeah. And what I mean by fight is you don't swing punches. You don't hit, you don't use harsh, vindictive, cutting words, but you stand your ground on what you feel and then let them state their ground.
And then you come to an agreement in the middle. And sometimes that requires. Maybe a little bit elevated volume , [00:38:00] but,
Tony: Yeah, I, I look, I, I'm a, we, we have a lot of rules for fighting too, so it's, mm-hmm. , it's a, it's language that I'm super familiar with. One, one of ours is even, even in the midst of our biggest fights, I've never slept in on the couch.
And we always sleep in the bed together. Right? That's, and even when we're mad, that's, we still pray over each other at night before we go to bed. And like some of those, like these are, are, these are non-negotiable disciplines no matter how much Now, sometimes the prayer is, dear Lord, please make my husband less stupid.
But like, we're praying. We're praying, we're in it, we're in it, and we're, what's up? Like so no, she, she would never, I mean, it's not name calling, you know what I mean? But like, it's a, it's a
Joel: healthy, what's that prayer of Paul? Lord, I found anything we, we disagree, help her realize she's wrong. Right?
Tony: I, you know, kind of as we come to the end of our time together, I, I do want to ask, like, as this book gets out into the world my [00:39:00] podcast family loves to pray. What can we pray alongside you as this book gets into the hands of, of so many
Joel: different. . So one of my prayers for it, and I didn't realize this was my prayer until the first editor sent it back to me and she reads a lot of books and she wrote back and she goes, I don't say this about books, but I felt pastored by this book.
Hmm. And that's my prayer is that I know there are a lot of people that, man, there's just a lot of craziness going on in the world right now, and a lot of people are questioning their. My prayer is that a lot of people through this will get some clarity on the fact that God has really been leading them and they didn't even realize it.
He hasn't abandoned them. You're not that coat that because you live in Texas, you know you never use it. And then God opens the closet one day and it's like, oh, I forgot you're still in there. That great coat. Now you're not forgotten by God. Divinely orchestrating behind the scenes, everything in your life.
And there are dark seasons, there are quiet seasons, [00:40:00] there are challenging seasons, but he has not forgotten you. And I just want people to see that, that when you look back, as it says in Revelation, we will stand before and bow and say, true and gesture are your ways my prayers that people would see that God really has been working all things together for the good of those who love him.
Yeah, that's, that's my prayer through it. I, I want it to get into the hands of people who maybe feel forgotten by God, maybe feel like they made a mistake and this is why their life is taken, the turn it's taken right now. And, and then for those that have made a mistake and realize this is why life has taken the turn to realize it's not beyond God's capacity.
Yeah. To turn it around. So, pa I, I really want to be a pastoring book, which is funny cuz I don't think of myself as a very pastoral, but I feel like that's the goal of the book.
Tony: Praise. Praise God. Okay. One more question for you, but before I ask it, I know that my listeners are gonna want to learn all things about what God is doing in and through you and about future books and all the things.
Where's the best place to stay in tune with what God is is doing [00:41:00] in your ministry?
Joel: Well, I mean, I have my Monday morning Rantings. Every Monday I send out an email. You can sign up for that@joelmo.com. J o e l m a l m.com. And there's a little popup thing, the classic popup. Just put that in there and you'll get an email from me every Monday.
Just stuff I've been thinking about, stuff I've been working through in life. And then also that has a bunch of messages I've given the books I've written and stuff like that. There's also a ton of U versions devotionals I've written, so I've got three more that are going live next month. Oh, wow.
Based on the based on the Connecting the Dots book. So if you go to the u version Bible app, just put in my name, J O E l M A L M, it'll pull up all the different DeVos that I've written. And those have gotten quite a bit of traction. ,
Tony: so Love that. Love that. Okay, last question. I love to ask people, it's an advice question.
I'm gonna ask you to go back and give yourself one piece of advice except I get to name the season of life that you're in when you give that younger version of you the advice. And so I, I wanna take you back to your very the end [00:42:00] of your very first expedition right where you just got done doing this massive trip, life changing.
If you could sit down in that younger version of yourself. Sit knee a knee with him, hold his hands, look him in the eyes. Yes know. Knowing everything that you know now, what's the one piece of advice you're gonna give him? .
Joel: It's the same advice I tell my wife. I would've given this to me, to me up until about five years ago.
It's the same piece of advice. Chill out dude.
Like I was so uptight, so determined to prove myself, so determined to show the world I had something to offer. And I look back and I'm like, chill out. Enjoy this. Yeah. So much of it. I think I only enjoyed about 50% of it because I was obsessed with gotta prove, gotta prove. So it's the same advice I would've given myself up until about five years ago.
Chill out, dude.
Tony: What bonus [00:43:00] question, what changed five years ago?
Joel: How much time you have left on a podcast? As much as we
Tony: need . All right, .
Joel: So I had this epiphany about five years ago. We were walking around I had built this successful coaching business and we're walking around this park pushing our daughter in the middle of a Monday.
And I'm like, man, isn't life good? I've, I don't have to be at work. I can, you know, da da da. And, and she turned to me and she's like, maybe, but I feel really alone. And I was like, alone, what? How dare you feel alone? Like, I work from home. I did this for you. She's like, yeah, but you're always working. I'm like, I work from home,
So I started realizing, I had set, and this is, I'll put 'em time together in a second. I started realizing that I had set some arbitrary goals for myself in the 20, in my twenties based on who I was then. [00:44:00] But a bunch of new priorities had showed up between my twenties and and age 40, and I had not adjusted my goals accordingly, and I didn't even know myself in my twenties.
I didn't even know what I wanted and I was terrorizing. Over goals I had set for myself in the twenties that I had not achieved on the timeframe I had achieved. And so I had to stop and look and go, what do I really want? And as I started looking back at the stuff, the standards I had been holding myself to in my twenties, I didn't even want half those things anymore.
You know, I realized I don't like being gone speak. More than about 12 weekends a year. I just don't like it. And in my mind, I would be out speaking 50 weekends a year and I'm like, I don't even like that. I thought I would have a bunch of staff and employees. I don't even like that. I thought I would have.
There's just all these things I'd set for myself that I, [00:45:00] I was terrorizing myself over goals that were old Joelle and life had changed. Some new values had showed up. I was married. I had a child now I discovered I'm a writer now, which takes a lot of time. Writing books takes a lot of time. And all these goals I had set for myself in my twenties, they, they, I had not, I had not adjusted my value system as the bottom line.
Yeah. And that's what changed. And I realized so much of what I had wanted back then was either one put upon. people being like, you have so much potential. And so I figured out in my mind what that potential meant and for me to reach that potential, what it meant. And I was driving myself to that, but it was impossible what I was asking of myself, and it wasn't even in line with what I really wanted.
Now that I had a wife, a child I found out I like working for myself. I always thought I wanted to lead a large organization. And so in my mind, I was falling short of my own goals because I wasn't leading a large organization, but I. I hate being [00:46:00] in charge of stuff like I like my expeditions cuz they're one and done man.
You lead people up a mountain now get outta my face, go home, enjoy your life, . And then I go enough. So that's what happened about five years ago and I started realizing what I really value is a lot of free time. So people write me and they're like, you must be super busy. I. , not generally. Right now I am, cuz I got a lot of podcast interviews and stuff for the book, but generally I don't, I work about two hours a day and then the rest of the time I think and I like it that way.
Yeah. And then I work on the weekends really hard. I speak at the churches and stuff. So, anyways, that, that's the long version. Again, my answers are always long, sorry of. , kind of what changed about five years ago is I started realizing I need to adjust my value system cuz it's a moving target. There's this, you know the story with Kane and Abel.
You see that Kane gets mad when God doesn't accept his sacrifice. and Kane goes, and God goes, why are you angry? And why is your face falling? If you do well, it will [00:47:00] go right with you if you do not. Sin is crouching at your door, but you must rule over it. Mm. And sin is crouching at your door. That word sin It's a, it's a archery term.
It means you, you miss the target. And I think what he's saying to, to Kane is, yeah, you made a sacrifice, but it's not a sacrifice I valued. And you don't get credit unless it's a sacrifice. God values. Then we, and what, what we find a lot of times in our life is that we get angry and frustrated with life, but it's because we're making the wrong sacrifice.
And you can live a virtuous life, but still make the wrong sacrifice. And when you do, you get the same results as actual sin, regret, remorse. And, and, and so that's where I think it's really important. You established first of. , what is the order? God wants it in. And I'm convinced the order is always God, your spouse, your kids.
I mean, if you look at the biblical pattern, something always has to be sacrificed for what's most valuable. So you're always in every season of life going what needs to be sacrificed? Yeah.[00:48:00] At some point, maybe your dreams need to be sacrificed to raise your child. I was talking to a lady the other day.
She's having massive success. Massive success, and she wanted that success 20 years ago, but she felt like God told her to stay home and homeschool her children. And she did. And now it's like God's making up the time that she felt was lost. Like, I mean, she has seen crazy success, but I think it's cuz she made the right sacrifice.
God asked something from her and she made the right sacrifice. So when we make the right sacrifice anger dissipates, fear dissipates. And we, but, but the, it's a moving target. That target you aim at is a moving target. And every season of life you have to go, what needs to be sacrificed this time? Right.
Right. You know, it's my adventure trips. I'm not doing as many right now. You know, you always have to ask that what needs to be sacrificed. And I think that's where I realized what I was sacrificing the wrong things and what was actually being sacrificed was my wife. Yeah. In the middle of all that crazy success I thought I was having, we had the money, we had a lot of money, but my wife felt alone.
And that's, [00:49:00] there's no price tag you can put on that. And so many guys sacrificed their families for the sake of the security they provide for their. But it's really not the right sacrifice. And when anger shows up, you gotta evaluate it. Am I making the right sacrifice? So that's a whole nother topic, but,
Tony: whew.
Okay, well, let's get back together sometime and talk about this more , because this is fascinating. All right. All right. I, I really, really valued our time today, and I'm so appreciative of your generosity and, and just the diversity of thought. And
Joel: thank you. Yeah, man. This we don't usually go all over the place.
This one went all over the place. I like
Tony: it. I like it too. It was a real blessing.
