#94: Kait Warman: Thank You for Rejecting Me
Rejection doesn't have to have the final say. In this conversation, Kait Warman shares her journey of rejection and reclaiming the joy that comes with rooting your identity in Christ.
We discuss how to deal with future rejections, past rejections, and putting on your cape of courage to deal with both! This is a fun and enlightening conversation good.
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Full Transcripts
Tony: Hey everybody. Welcome back to the reclamation podcast, where our goal is to help you reclaim good practices for faith and life. My name is Tony. And today is episode 94 of the podcast. And I get to sit down with rejection expert, Kate Warman. What's the rejection expert. Well, she's figured out how to define rejection and in such a way that you can have your own way with it, meaning that you can learn from it.
You can grow from it. You can do something new. She's got a brand new book out called thank you for rejecting me. And it's all about the process in her life of doing such things. She's also got a podcast, the heart of dating podcast. So make sure you subscribe to that and check out her new book. Thank you for rejecting me as always.
You can do me a huge favor, hit the subscribe button right now, wherever you're listening. Make sure you share this episode with a friend and leave a rating or review on iTunes. It really does make a huge difference so that any further ado, here's my conversation with Kate Mormon. Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the podcast.
I am so excited to have Kate here from Southern California. Kate, how are you,
Kait: Tony? I'm doing well. I told you before it's 80 degrees out. Okay. And we're in quote-unquote winter, so I'm not mad about it. Okay.
Tony: And where did you grow up? Did you grow up in Southern California? No. Your transplant.
Kait: I am totally a transplant.
I am not, I actually grew up in Connecticut. So different. Yeah. Starkly different over Northeast though. I love, I love the Northeast. It's beautiful historical. There's so many cool things about growing up in the Northeast and beautiful four seasons, man. I grew up in Connecticut and gorgeous, like the trees and the Hills and it was honestly beautiful, but yeah.
I'm a Cali girl right now and I'm just going to own it. Well,
Tony: I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I think how did you go from one coast to the next.
Kait: Lots of moving through parental stuff? So we moved from Connecticut to Ohio, which we were just chatting about. So for about four years, then my family moved down to Texas.
My parents got a divorce, but my family seemed to like, Love Texas. So they're all there. Even though my parents aren't together, they've all just stayed in like Dallas Fort worth kind of area. So now they've been in Texas for about 12 years. So Texas is the new home though. I'm not like a born and bred Texan.
Tony: My my wife's mom always says home is where your mom is. Ah, yeah, that's it.
Kait: And then my mom looks like she was raised in Texas, like quarterly. She has adopted the Texas woman, everything hair, the nails, the bedazzling, like I'm like what mom you were meant to be in Texas. Like what, what is happening?
Why weren't you here your whole life?
Tony: That's awesome. So I'm super excited. You have this, this brand new resource coming out. Thank you for rejecting me. And the very first question I wanted to ask is how does someone become an expert on rejection?
Kait: Well, first of all, I don't think anyone wants to become an expert on protection.
I sure as heck did not want to be a expert on rejection. But I now totally see how God has used that in my life, but the reason why I'm quote unquote, an expert on rejection is well, You go through a lot of rejection. I don't think you can be an expert in anything without experiencing it really to the depths of every core.
And in fact experts that like, you know, and for me, this is a thing being a dating coach. I like there's so many cool dating coaches out there. The thing for me that I miss with hearing from dating coaches is I want to hear how. They show up in their dating lives or what it was like for them, the things they struggled with.
I want to know that you're not only studying this, but you're practicing it and you're walking alongside of me. So I think the cool thing that honor enjoy that I get to have the privilege to do is walk alongside others and share the things that I've learned through some of the hardest moments of my life.
Having to do with rejection and the pain of rejection, which caveat isn't just in dating, you know, I mean, we have been in all sorts, so. Being a rejection expert just really means I've worked through a lot of rejections, been through a lot of rejections and today I really see how rejections of the past can hold us down and keep it stuck and small.
And it did for me for so long. And until we start facing some of the, and healing from some of those past rejections and facing our fear, our overwhelming, like. Anxious fear of rejection in the future. We, we basically live our lives trying to avoid rejection at every corner, but of course, rejection is unavoidable.
External rejection is unavoidable. It will always happen to us. And so my goal is to really help come alongside others, to, you know, give them courage to heal through the pain. Pass rejections and have the strength to be able to fight the future fear of rejection and in such a way that they know rejection will come, but it will not steal their identity.
And when we can get to that place, rejection becomes, so it becomes way less scary and it becomes just a natural thing, you know? Okay. Rejection happened again.
Tony: Love that. I love that. And I think that there's an interesting. Thought in this idea about past rejection and future rejection, because you do a really great job in your new book talking about both.
How, how do they get so linked together? Like how come I can't just like put that past rejection on the shelf and leave it there. Why do I always seem to carry that into new. New dialogues. Like, you know, when you have to go ask somebody for something and you know, you've been rejected or, or, you know, there's, I mean, obviously we've all got scenarios on our lives.
What's the tension between the past rejection and the future rejection. And why is that tension so important?
Kait: Yeah. So God God's designed for us as he created us dynamic emotional beings with feelings, you know, and if he didn't want us to want us to feel and express. life through all of our senses. He would have just created us like robotically, you know, and, and I actually think there's such a beauty to the emotions and the dynamic ability that we see the world and experienced life.
But with that becomes, you know, comes a lot of vulnerability. And so the past rejections really hit at a place of our deeper vulnerabilities because the pain of that rejection makes us. I feel very vulnerable can make us feel a lot of things make us feel abandoned. We can feel betrayed. We could feel there could be abuse.
There, there could be a lot of lies that come into, basically tell us that we're unworthy, unlovable, undesirable, not pretty, whatever it may be. And so. Our past rejections whether big or small, because my point is that big rejections can happen. I talk about those in my book and also lots of small rejections can happen and either one they're still gonna impact you.
So I come to find people today, not to go on a tangent that are like, Oh, but I feel good in my life. And, you know, rejection hasn't really bothered me. I'm like, I bet though, under the surface that there are things that have happened that have probably piled up through time and that are impacting you in such a way that you were walking with a limp and don't even realize it.
You know, you're walking with extra fears, anxiousness, you're walking and trying to perform for others. You are your love. Is conditional. Your love for yourself is conditional. I only love myself if I'm skinny. I only love myself. If I succeed. I only love myself. If I get a relationship, your love you've see love from others as conditional and you fear conditional love from others.
It's so complex. So the past really we have to be able to look. Go back and analyze the ways in which we've been hurt in our deepest ways through big T traumas, big rejections or in small ways, and just recognize how those little things have piled up through time to form how I see the world today. And the reason why it's so important is because it will affect how you see the world today.
And therefore, if you're not doing that analyzing today, then I am going into a new relationship thinking this guy will reject me. This guy will probably abandon me. This guy is not to be trusted. You're going in with all these preconceived ideas because of all your previous experiences. And that makes sense.
Because you've experienced that in your body through fears, trying to warn you. Oh, like the fear is like trying to warn you and protect you of something. But a lot of times we, the issue is that for future rejections and situations of opportunity, we we allow the fear to rule us. So when we don't face the past, the fear will often rule us in the future.
And what that leads to is a lack of stepping out in, into new opportunities. That could be absolutely incredible for us, whether it brings us somewhere else or whether it's a great opportunity for learning. It could also lead us to But self-sabotage future relationships and opportunities because we are so fearful of whatever's, the outcome might be that we self-sabotage before that can even happen.
It also leads us down a path of rejecting ourselves. I think that's one of the biggest things I address also in the book is past rejections will all, will often lead to us having really deep toxic roots of self-rejection, which is how we see ourselves. In a negative way, and it's how we reject ourselves before others even have the chance.
So we cannot address future rejections without addressing first, the past rejections. That's really it. And that's where we, it's hard because people are like, but I don't want to go to the past. I just want to deal with the future. I'm like so sorry, but unless you're willing to put on your Cape of courage.
You're going to just keep walking with that limp. And I want freedom for you, and I know it's not easy, but it can be done. And I think it's essential to be done to really walk without a crippling fear of the future. Yeah.
Tony: Yeah. So I think that there's some divine timing and how this book coming out and well, in 2021, hasn't been very kind to us in terms of like, we thought everyone's like, ah, new year's it's going to be great.
But that's no kidding. I don't think I've heard the word psych in a decade.
Kait: I'll bring it back, Tony.
Tony: Oh, I love it. I love it. One of the theories. For my time in the military, that seems to be playing out right now in COVID is is this idea that that prolonged stress like COVID like I think seasons breakups, it could, could be anything, right?
Job change. All of those things, prolonged stress in our life turns the cracks in our lives into canyons. And it, it takes, it takes things that were already there and it kind of blows them up and makes them much bigger as a dating coach. And as someone who is who's actively serving this community and, and dealing and helping people deal with rejection.
Talk to me a little bit about isolation in all of this and, and how it changes our cause I I'm seeing just pastorally. I'm seeing people who I wouldn't. I mean lose it. I don't know how else to say it. There's probably a much more pastoral way to say it, but like people are, are having a really hard time holding things together because life feels so blown apart.
Kait: Yeah. You know, I think that it totally makes sense why people are feeling that way. I felt that way. I mean, God designed us for connection. Otherwise I believe that like he would have created humans all living on their own islands. In silos that just worship him all day long. You know, he did not create it.
This is my Island and I'm mixing pink and fun and fancy. And then there's that Island that's that person's personality. We don't interact at all. I just sit all day and eat and worship God and whatever. I mean, like. I mean, sometimes that sounds kind of nice, but anyway, created us. He wired us for intimacy and for connection.
And we see that in the creation of Eve and Adam and Eve's connection. And I mean, we didn't have to, he didn't have to create humans, but he didn't have to create more than one. And so he did, so there's a he's wants us to interact. He wants that community. I think it's an essential part to our flourishing.
And so this year has been really challenging. For community across the board and to bring it to, I guess, the singles conversation as I deal with lots of singles, I think it's been especially isolating. I will bring up just a quick moment. Last year I was in a relationship for a lot of COVID and it ended in.
September. And I remember it ended and then my roommate moved out and it was all at the same time. So the two people that I saw the most for eight months basically were both gone. I was like, Oh, my gosh, what would I do? Like literally, because I had so many friends last year that got married, which is so grateful to have come up with creative COVID weddings, but they got married and I'm like so grateful for them, but I, but it just changes some of the dynamics.
It changes. So I found myself being like, Oh, my gosh, I feel so starkly alone. And I it's like this depth of despair and of green Gables, the depths of despair where you're just like, Oh my gosh, like, I feel like so many things have changed. I can't even go to church on the weekends. My boyfriend's gone. My roommate who I saw regularly is gone.
There's so much separation with people in general, like even going to the store, people are more separated. And so. I really want to empathize with anybody that feels just that depths of the depths of loneliness right now. I think it really is. It's, it's honestly become very tempting to go down the path of lots of vices and nother mechanisms.
And for me, that's been something where I've had to really check in with myself and community and find new ways. To connect with people because a lot of what I talk about in my book as well is just that we have more power than we give ourselves credit for. And I think sometimes we want to sit in what I call the VBS, which is the victim belief system.
And that is just. Nothing's ever going to get better. Nobody's ever going to love me. I'm not going to ever. I'm not that interesting. I could make a new friend, but eventually they're going to betray me too. It's just that self-fulfilling prophecy there. Mentalities that turn into self fulfilling prophecies and the more I live in the victim belief system, the more actually my situation doesn't change.
And the more likely I am to Expect that outcome. And therefore, when that outcome happens, it hits me that much worse. It's like, Oh, I knew that was going to happen because life sucks or dating sucks. We're all men suck. Right? It is just, and it perpetuates those same thoughts. So. I don't want to discount the loneliness.
People are feeling it's very, very real. And I want to add the same time, empower people to say you have the strength and tools to ask for what you need and take care of yourself in this time. And I think it's really important that we do that. Whatever that looks like for us.
Tony: So, so let me ask you this because I've watched your book trailer and you talk a little bit about the breakup and the trailer, and you were very vulnerable about it.
As a matter of fact, you're a very vulnerable person. So thank you for that. I, I mean, it, it just takes a certain amount of bravery to walk into some of these situations and be so open. And you kind of tell the story about how. The breakup happened, then the next day your publisher sends you the manuscript and tells you to read your own words.
There's a, there's a a feeling as I was listening to that of like, man, this is, she was going through some legit spiritual warfare. How, how do you, how did you. Fight through that get super practical. Cause I imagine there's somebody listening right now who feels like they're in the middle of spiritual warfare and they don't have any idea of what to do next.
What are some of the things that, that you did to fight back against any of the lies or the shame or the guilt that we're certainly and understandably creeping into your head and heart?
Kait: Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, you know, the irony, I thought, you know, part of me thought, Oh, I'm writing this book on rejection.
I've been through a lot of rejection as we've established, and then I'm in this relationship and I'm like, this is the redemption story. I mean, this is so cool. I'm writing and processing through the deepest pains of my life. And. Reliving how God has come through through time in those situations. And I'm with a man and I'm like hopeful that this may end in marriage.
This is amazing. And then no, that's not happened. I laugh now because I'm like, Oh my gosh, I really think that some part of me had this like bargaining deal with God where I was like, God, I going to write this book and go to these really hard depths and layers and reliving those traumatic experiences.
But just so you know, I'm not going to do any of these again. Okay.
Tony: We're going to call it good. We're going to call it.
Kait: Let me just blessing from now on. Okay. Is that cool? And God's like, no, I still have things to show you and to reveal to you But I will be really honest. So the first thing that happened is just a lot of lament and a lot of grief.
And I think people look at a leader like myself or other pastors, pastors and speakers, authors, and it's like, Oh, they have their life together. They are so happy. They're positive. They preach the word of God. They talk to them. Okay. But inside the depths behind the curtain is a girl, a 31 year old woman on her hands and knees crying out to God.
It's not everywhere. Really upset, really angry at God, really like confused. And I had to allow myself to just have at it with the Lord, like true lament style, David in the Psalms, like literally just on my hands and knees. So the first thing I suggest to anybody is your pain is, is normal. Don't feel like nobody else goes through pain because we do and.
But the hardest thing that is so necessary is that we have to feel the pain to be able to heal through the pain and to feel it means to really allow yourself to feel the weight of the disappointment and the grief and within that, because I think sometimes we can get stuck too far into it. So I think there's the balance of bring God into each layer of that grief.
And Tim Keller has a sermon called pray your tears. It's really just this process of lamenting you lament to the Lord and you invite him in, you bring your questions, your concerns, your just frustrations, you bargain with him, whatever it is, because the stages of grief are layered, your anger, which is a stage of grief.
And you pray all of them to God. Like I'm bringing this to you. I'm inviting you in this Holy sacred space with me. And because sometimes what happens if we don't do that? We just get lost in the downward spiral. And then there we are in the VBS, right? The victim belief system. Again, no guys ever going to love me.
No relationship will ever work secure and stable love doesn't exist for me. And so you don't want to land back in that mindset because that's a really hard place to get out of. And if you've worked to get out of it already, which I had, so for me, I was like, If I saw those beliefs coming up, I would write them down and bring them to God immediately.
You can't just, you can't pretend that they don't ever come up. You know, it's not like I'm, again, I'm not super human. I'm not robotic. Yes. I had thoughts of like, God, will this ever happen? Will I ever find a relationship that actually works out? You know? And I had to bring that to God. And then. Redirect to the, what I'm going to do to move forward.
So feeling the pain to heal the pain and part of that also looks like for me, focusing on what to do to take the next step forward versus in the beginning, focusing on why it happened. Because there's a lot that we, that God does not give us the answers for, especially when we want them, like when a breakup happens.
You're like, why, why God? Why, why, why that's your initial inclination? When your job, when a job closes a door or, or you lose your job or why we see terrible hard things, why COVID-19 happened? You know, there's a lot of why's happening. And I think in the initial shock of grief, we don't need to look at the why.
I think we need to focus on God has character and what we can do with the Lord to take a step forward and then another step forward and another step forward, the Y will start revealing itself through time. And so a mistake we make is focusing too much too early on, on the why. And I think that's where we get weighed down by shame and the victim belief system.
So feel the pain to heal the pain and focus on. What to do to take just each step forward and, and make it very basic for yourself. One step at a time.
Tony: Yeah, well, I, I mean I have a very addictive personality and I've worked at work, the steps. And one of the things that I've realized is that one day at a time really is like an act of worship.
And it sounds like you're saying the same thing. Like if I can just live for God. Today. And sometimes the day even feels like too much. I got to cut it down to a half a day. And if a half a day it feels like too much. Maybe sometimes it's just an hour. Right. So I'm, I'm kind of curious, what has this process of, of writing a book on rejection, opening up your heart, all of this.
What has it taught you about. The character of God. And how has it, how has it really changed your relationship God, and the way you with God and the way you look at rejection?
Kait: Yeah. So a few people, not few, a lot of people have recently asked me in the last few months, my breakup happened late in the fall of 2020.
And we're now in 2021. So it's been a few months and people have asked me like, Oh, okay. You seem so happy and joyous and like all this. And I'm like, okay. Yeah, The first thing, I will say this as a funny moment, I talked to Dr. Henry cloud, who I love the other day. And he was like, Kate, why you're happy is because you're not in that relationship anymore.
And I was like, okay, love. Okay. My ex who's listening. Okay. No, just kidding. So that, but like, Outside of that. I really think the biggest, one of the biggest things that God has shown me about his character is that hope and joy is not the absence of pain. You know? I bring this up in the book is I think it's such a simple, amazing movie, but the movie inside out is a Disney movie about your emotions.
And one of my favorite lessons, the overall lesson of that movie is there's a character. Joy is, you know, The emotion of joy and then sadness and sadness is constantly trying to rain on Joy's parade, like make, you know, and enjoys, like stop it. We don't stop is sadness. You just need to stop, you know, and she wants this child's life to just be full of joy and just full of joy.
And by the end, it's so sweet. I totally cry every time. But joy starts realizing that a lot of the moments of joy of this child's life were preceded by moments of sadness and. The reason why this child can have such joyous moments is because she's also experiencing sadness and the depths of sadness.
And so she starts seeing sadness as actually a gift and an emotion that this child needs, because actually that's how the emotions work together. I just got chills saying that because I really believe, and that's what God has shown me. Like Kate. Just because you're going through the depths of despair and pain and agony and sadness does not mean that there isn't good.
On the other side of this, that there isn't joy that there isn't a beauty for life that I want you to experience. And I actually believe that that is God's character for me, that he allows us to experience painful things. Not because he's an evil God or a bad God, but because. He's working through each and everything to reveal more beauty to us, whatever it may be.
And that looks so different for every person. But I believe because of my depths of pain and sorrow and sadness, that it's given me greater ability to empathize, to connect, to have greater joy. I mean, I see emotions honestly. Spectrum and you know, like, and so one day I may be really down. And I, I, in one day can honestly feel depths of sadness and the height of all-in-one.
Yeah, for sure. For sure. And I think we're so as humans we're like, Oh, you know, just gotta keep it together and be like cool all the time. And I'm like, And that's what I used to be. I mean, myself as a child, I was just like, I wouldn't cry. I have it together. I'm good. I'm fine. Everything's strong. You know, and I think that we live our lives sometimes thinking like, that's what strength is.
But it's not, it's not strength. And, and the ability to really become like Jesus means that we are, we embrace our faith. Full emotional beings that he's created us to be. And if we are to become like Jesus and therefore use the example of the character of Jesus, as a way for us to live, then we see that Jesus was emotional and every way he wept, he was angry.
He had joy, he had melancholy moments like. All of the above and that is beauty it all in of itself, you know? And I think Jesus, same thing. You see him coming to the depths of despair and worshiping God, it's both, it's the both. And, and so I've just realized that God isn't absent in any of the pain and, and when I, Tony can look and analyze.
So I think sometimes when something so traumatic hits us right. Our focus is so on that one moment, right? Because it's so in our face. But what I've tried to do is, is take a moment to say, Oh my gosh, when I feel this is overwhelming and I will never get through this, I have to try to remind myself and think back to a moment in life where God came through and redeemed in some capacity, you know, like I'm going to think back to five years ago to remind myself Oh yeah.
That took a long time to get over. But eventually. I did see God come through on that. And so do I trust the, he will continue to come through my life even in this moment. And so I think it's all of those things. It's not a black and white answer, but that those are some of the things that have helped me and that God has, God has shown me in the depths of rejection and pain.
Tony: No, I love that. I. I am curious, right. You live a very public and vulnerable life. How do you how do you create space for the private part? Right. Like, cause I would imagine that in your role as a dating coach and you have a great podcast, the heart of dating podcast and yeah. And, and so you kinda, you dedicated the book.
I always love to read book dedications and I th I was really, I really appreciate it as a podcaster that you would dedicate your book to your podcast community and that whole process. How do you live in the tension of, of what's of what's private and what's public and what's, you know, what's good.
What's good to put out there. Cause I think if we look at a lot of us are. Especially Christians are struggling with man. I have all these feelings and social media is there to just vomit it all out. And sometimes that's good and sometimes it's not good. What's the, what's the filter that you use.
Kait: Yeah, man.
So this is so nuance for each person, but first and foremost, you need to have close people in your life that are like your core four people. And I don't ever really share anything deeply vulnerable on social media without first sharing it with those people. And also most likely my therapist. Who I'm constantly seeing.
So it's process usually when it's deeply vulnerable and here's what we have to do on an individual level. I see vulnerability as an onion and there are certain things that for me, would be vault re like on a scale from one to 10, 10 being the most vulnerable. I th the 10, the nine and 10, those are not things I'm like outrightly sharing ever publicly.
You know, there's some things sacredly for me, it's some of my family life and some of my dynamics with my parents growing up those things, you will rarely hear me share very publicly about the depths of what really, really happened in my childhood, because that's a really vulnerable for me. And it's a, it lands on that nine, 10 scale.
And there are things that are still being worked through to this day that when I've discerned, I'm like, that's not something I am comfortable sharing when we overshare it will leave us feeling exposed and can sometimes lead to shame. And so we have to discern what is my vulnerability? Scale and what am I willing to share with other people?
But for me, I also in tandem with that have very close people that I share things first with. And, and that is just, I think, no matter what, in life, we need to have those close, close people where they are seeing the full depths of our soul and our heart. They know the ins and outs and it's mutual.
They're also sharing that with us and we're pouring into them. So that's the first thing. And. I never often share things very in the moment that are high on the vulnerability scale. So for example, that breakup happened last fall. And I went on a trip and I told basically the social media community, like, Hey guys.
So I'm needing a break from social media and things have happened in my life and I'm going off the grid. And it was super vague. I did not tell anybody anything. And in fact it wasn't until a few months later that I actually revealed that I had been through a breakup. And so I just got off the grid and was like, Nope, I'm handling this right now.
God. And they don't need to know the depths. And even today, people will DME. Hey, so exactly. Why did you break up with that guy? Or why did you guys like, can you tell me the in and outs of like, why that happened? I'm like, no. Not right now. I will continue to discern if I'm going to share more details on that.
But I have like discerned the level of vulnerability that I feel comfortable with and for, and for the most part it comes. I usually My vulnerability usually lands with me statements and my experience versus telling them the ins and outs of my dynamic with that person, because that's also a vulnerability for that person as well.
So I usually try to focus when, in terms of dating myself, my ownership, my experience, what I'm processing through versus revealing like. This, person's struggled with this and this person showed up this way. You know, that, that wouldn't be fair vulnerably for me to share publicly on a mass scale.
Tony: No, I think that's very wise.
I, I also think that like just taking the time to process, that seems like a very prudent thing to do. Like if it, if it, it does it age well, I heard somebody ask recently does this age well, Yes. You know, and, and so is it still, is it still valuable a week from now or two weeks from now, or that sort of idea?
And when I first got into preaching, one of my mentors said Tony don't ever preach through your wounds, only preach through your scars.
Kait: That's good. Yes.
Tony: Yeah. So I think that feels like that lines up now. I, if, if it's okay, I'd like to ask you some questions about dating.
Kait: Yeah. Ask me anything.
Tony: So a true confession.
I married my high school, sweetheart. We, we had no idea what we were doing and, and God has just brought us through that. God in good counseling has brought us through. Right. So like what's but I have a, I have a 15 year old and I have, so who's just like, I like big toe in the water and I'm, I get the sweats, like thinking about his dating life makes me sweat.
So w what, and Christians were so awkward at dating. Why we're so bad at it. Help me help me. What do I need to know about dating in 2021?
Kait: Okay. So I know your dad, you have a young teenager, so these why be terrifying for you. Okay. But we're going to talk about it. So I think that. I actually think we need to reframe what dating is.
I don't think that dating just needs to be, to find a spouse. And I think it's in Christian culture, why we have become so awkward and uncomfortable as because we make it that my dating life, my me going on a date is so that I'm finding a spouse. And I think that that makes it so that we don't ask out people.
We don't put ourselves out there. We eliminate people were so strict with the process and we feel really uncomfortable because in essence, we don't have like any dating experience. We need to just debunk that I would like to reframe dating in such a way that dating is an opportunity to to do a lot of other things than just find a partner there.
Of course, we'll get to the part of like where people are like, well, I don't want to be a player Kate and blah, blah, blah. Okay. I'm not saying that. So just hold on. But. I think that dating is an amazing opportunity to learn about another brother or sister in Christ, mazing man, or woman of God. It, this person is not your person.
They can still be a person that you enjoy talking to. And that you've met and have curious conversations with where you grow in perspective. Hey, this is a man in front of me that grew up somewhere totally different than I did was homeschooled. Was this, that, and the other. That's interesting. I'd love to grow my perspective in life, by connecting with somebody that God uniquely made that's different than me.
So it's an amazing opportunity to get to know someone different from yourself. It's an amazing opportunity to learn about yourself. What's coming up for you. Do I feel really nervous? Do I feel really shy talking to the opposite gender? Am I having a hard time expressing vulnerability to the opposite gender?
Am I having a hard time oversharing? Do I find myself being a people pleaser? Do I find myself not feeling comfortable in my body or my appearance? Can I not make eye contact? You can learn so much about yourself through dating, but if you're not dating, you're not learning those things because it's different when it's just friend to friend same gender, you know, so you learn about yourself also amazing opportunity to have healthy experiences.
I see nothing wrong and I'm not just saying date for fun, but I think that we don't see dating as an enjoyable. we see dating as this like, plagued experience that like, Oh my gosh, I'm like, it's so terrible and I'm going on a date and I don't really connect with them and it just sucks. And I'm like, okay, what if you reframe that?
What if you go on a date that isn't just a dinner date, that feels like an interview, but instead you go. On a hike together, or you do some interesting activity. So a you're creating a memory with somebody and you're doing something enjoyable than just having an interview. And what if it's also like, even if it doesn't work out, Oh, I had a great experience.
I got to know someone different and Hey, I could probably introduce them to somebody else. I know. I mean, my goodness. I think what a novel idea that not every person on the planet has to like us or be the one for us. You know. And so I think I just want to reframe Christian dating to say that it can be so much more than just looking for your future spouse.
Now the way we get into dating intentionally is like, okay, I'm going to go out with somebody. I will pretty much go out with anybody once. Cause I'm not putting a lot of pressure on that date. I'm not meeting up with them for six to eight hours and giving them all of my time. It's like an hour date.
It's an hour phone conversation. It's a zoom date in COVID. You know, I will do that.
Tony: Have you done a zoom date? Totally. Yeah. Do you guys just like coffee and wine and a zoom call? Yeah.
Kait: I actually had a guy really creative. He was like, okay, we're going to we're going to go, like, let's talk about he had different questions and he brought a Google map and he shared the screen and we like chose different places.
He was like, choose like so we both shared the place we grew up and then showed that person just different places on the map that were meaningful to us. Or then we show them a city that we had traveled to that was really unique and why, and showed them places that we loved about that city. And why interesting.
There are creative ways to have cool experiences with people on
I'm like, Oh my gosh. Back Tony to the victim believes this. Oh, I can't meet anyone. Oh, zoom dates. I'm like, if you have that attitude, dating will suck. I'm just going to tell you right now. So until you flip it around, you will not have a good dating experience. It just, I could give you the hottest guy ever right now who loves God.
And if he makes one wrong move, you're going to be like, Oh, all men are like that. So you need to transform your mindset first.
I'm yelling right now.
Tony: Well, so the thing is, is it's applicable to everyone, right? Like, I mean, you can, well, you can be a victim to anything and, and we just, we, we, we grasp onto that.
So W what's the role of social media and data? I, listen, you're doing a great job with some reels. I, I, I was, I was looking through your Instagram and check it out some of the reels. And I was like, she did a whole reel on sliding into someone's DMS. Talk to me about social media and dating and, and good, bad.
I mean, what's your, I mean, like, Yeah, what's the deal.
Kait: I'm all for social media dating and digital data. In fact, I'd say the majority of ways I've met guys in the last year or so have been through social media. Absolutely. But I think that this comes to like, can you put yourself out there and this to women being like, Oh, I can't put myself out there with guys.
And like, why not? Why not, why can't you make an interaction with another human that like, and I think we think that the defining moment for, for Christian women is like, I want to be pursued. I'm like, okay. Making, just dropping the hanky on somebody doesn't mean that they're not going to pursue it. Yeah.
Tony: So that's a term all over your brand. Maybe you could explain it for everyone. I love it. Dropping the hake. Yeah. That's on my notes to get to I'm so glad you said that.
Kait: Yes. And so I'll, I'll talk about digital dating and then dropping. Thank you. But digitally, I mean, it's, this is just social media as a means for connection and to other people.
And so I think it's a great opportunity and tool to connect with people that you wouldn't normally have the chance to just walk by and in real life. And I actually like it in some ways better than online dating, because you can see who that person follows. You can see what kind of content they're posting.
You get a little bit more of an insider view of their personality and what they're doing with their life. And so I'm like, Oh, this person follows a pastor. I love that's cool. This person visited Paris. I love Paris. This person likes Disney. Oh, cool. Like this person loves their mom. Lots of pictures with their mom.
I I'm seeing like the content of their captions, things like that. And so you get to a bigger feel for that person now that's if you follow them or if their profile is public. So I love digital dating and that like social media dating, and I people ask this all the time. So I'll answer it. Do you have to know the person to reach out to them?
No. You don't. I mean, again, you're making a connection. If you can reduce your standpoint, you don't know where they stand with faith. Of course. And you don't want to be the detective that tries to go through every single piece of content on their page, Googling their names to find out all their arrest records and every, no, you don't want to do that.
You're just making a connection. Here's the brilliant part of making a connection. You don't have to go on a date with them. You definitely don't have to marry them. So what's the problem. Why any problems with just making.
Tony: Releasing the pressure seems to be the key and all that?
Kait: Yes. A hundred percent. And we just, I hit it down and I say it a million times because we need, they need it.
The Christians need it and I get it, but you just gotta take a deep breath again and just, you know, connect with another human being. I think that also requires a skill. Tony. I think it requires a skill of wanting genuinely to be curious and other people and wanting genuinely to have dialogues that are sometimes uncomfortable and being willing to step out there.
Without the fear of rejection clouding you because a lot of people don't do it because they're like, what if they don't respond? Oh my gosh, what does that say about me? Maybe nothing. Maybe they were just busy. Maybe they're dating someone who cares. You don't have to be embarrassed by that. Like we have to internalize or personalize everything.
It's almost kind of selfish. We personalize everything, making us the idol, like, Oh, they didn't respond to me. Cause I'm not interesting. They didn't respond to me because I'm like, Maybe they just are busy in their life. Yo
Tony: No. Okay. So tell us about dropping the hanky. My listeners are killing me if, if we don't close that loop.
Kait: So drop the hanky is basically an old Victorian term that back in the day, women didn't have a ton of say of who they were going to get matched up with. They were just matched up. And so the way women did it in the Victorian era is they would be at a ball and there'd be a handsome gentleman that was maybe of a higher class or what have you.
And they would see them from across the way, make eye contact. And drop the hanky and the man would be like, Oh my gosh, you dropped her hankie and come over, run over, pick it up and be like, Oh my dear, you dropped your hanky handkerchief. And she was like, Oh, I did. Oh my goodness. Well, thank you so much.
You look dashing, you know, and it's like this moment where she intentionally did that to get his intention so that his interest, because otherwise he may not even know she exists. So dropping the hanky is a form of showing somebody's interests. And just putting yourself out there and the counter-cultural, if it really is counter-cultural it doesn't have to be the counter-cultural.
I think I say that is possible is that women can drop the hanky on guys. I just believe that you can, I mean, look at Ruth and she literally proposed Boaz like knelt. So we, I'm not saying propose to the guy. I'm just saying, put yourself out there because the guy's also fear of rejection and guys can't read your mind and you liking one of his photos doesn't mean that he knows that you're interested in him.
So you making eye contact with him at church. He may just have great gaze across the room. And you thought he made eye contact with you, but he has no conscious awareness that he actually made eye contact with you. So we have all these Christian girls that are like, he saw me, Oh my gosh. He sat closer to me this week.
He doesn't even know that he did girl. If you want to be in his vicinity, he has to know you exist.
Tony: Yeah, men, aren't a, we're not always quick on the uptake on these kinds of things. We're very compartmentalized in the brain. And so I would, I would concur with, I talked to a lot of my brothers in Christ about this idea of like yeah, yeah.
You know, it's just like, ah, it's tough. It's tough. So I, you know, I think, I think all of this is a great. Is a great lesson in encourage. And, and I, I, I mean, I guess we can't really have courage unless we know how to deal with rejection. Is that a fair statement to say.
Kait: Yes. I would say it's yes. And, and other things, but sure, absolutely.
Yeah. I think courage to do something new means the risk of rejection is always there and you kind of have to be okay with that. Otherwise, you won't step out in courage, right? A lot of the time.
Tony: Yeah, I, yeah. You might have courage once, but you're not going to have multiple times of courage without learning how to process and deal with that rejection.
That's. That's so good. I, I know that my listeners love to pray. And so the, this podcast is releasing the same day as your book. And so I'm wondering what can we pray for, as it relates to this piece of writing into the work that God's called you to. Or for you personally.
Kait: So to pray for, so to make sure I understand praying for the individuals going through rejection, reading the book, pray for what?
Tony: The book. Yeah. Okay, good. Yes, exactly.
Kait: Anything. My prayer is a for people to feel not alone and normalized that rejection happens and that. Any person that you admire has gone through the depths of grief and hardship and pain and rejection. So you're not alone in that. So my prayer is for people to not feel alone, like they are the ones crippled by rejections.
They're the only ones that don't feel chosen or loved or lovable. And my prayer through this book is that people would. Under normalize the fact that this has happened, it's going to continue to happen, but that there is a beautiful strength within them that God has placed within them at birth.
Like he created us powerfully. He given us his Holy spirit. So we have the outworking of the Holy spirit within us. And we do have so much power within us to conquer and go through and be brave to go through the depths of the past, to heal because I believe healing. Isn't just. For the faint of heart, I believe healing absolutely requires courage and bravery and strength.
And that's why I repeat probably once or twice in the book, but in James and James one where it says counted joy brothers and sisters, when you face trials of many kinds, because it produces steadfastness or perseverance or whatever the version translation is. And it is that we are not promised a life without pain, without hardship, without rejection.
But with. Each and every, but we have a power within us to continue to grow stronger, to continue to fight forward and fight for ourselves in the midst of unbearable pain. And I think just to wrap up everything we've talked about, Tony, my biggest thing is to also is help people feel seen and to also just give them that empowerment to take radical ownership for their own lives.
I think we're so waiting for somebody else to make it happen for us. I'm single people. I'm waiting to get that husband and then I'll feel whole, I'm waiting somebody to finally say yes to a date with me, and then I'll feel desired, whatever it is we're waiting. For that job to then feel worthy, we're waiting.
And I'm like, what if you took, you partnered with God to start filling those holes for yourself, knowing that you can have a full life right now w with, or without those things, you know, with God. And so I just, that's my, my heart for people. And my second heart in prayer is. And people also know whether or not they can see it right now with whatever pain they're going through.
That I've truly believe God redeems every pain in our life and brings beauty from the ashes. And I know that because it's happened for me, but I also. Believe it on behalf of everybody else that has God's heart to continue to heal us and bring beauty from every pain that we've gone through. And that is his character.
So man, that's such a nuanced prayer. I don't even think it's like one note.
Tony: No, I love it. I love it. Well, and what I love is that that's your heart and then we can pray for that in agreement with you. So that's a, that's a beautiful sediment and it's so true. That'll. That'll preach any day of the week.
So I'm here for that. I know my friends are gonna want to follow you on all the, on the interwebs. What's the best place to to connect with you and pick up their copy of the book.
Kait: Yes. So Instagram joined the party, Kate Anas, K a I T N E S S heart of dating. We have an Instagram and a podcast and a webpage heart of dating and a Facebook group.
We have all the things and then the book you can get at. If you want to know all the places it's sold, go to thank you for rejecting me.com or T Y F R m.com. Kate warman.com. Literally anything.com. No, I'm just kidding, but you're going to find it. I made it. You're going to find it. You can also of course get it on Amazon.
Really easy ways to get it or unheard of dating. We also have a link to it, so lots of places to find the book.
Tony: All over. I love it. Okay. Last question. I always love to ask people. It's an advice question. Okay. Give yourself one piece of advice, except I'm going to take you back to your first day as an official resident of Southern California.
If you could talk to the younger version of yourself, pull yourself aside, eye to eye, woman to woman and say, Kate, this is what you need to know. Mm. Okay. What piece of advice you given her?
Kait: Whew. Well, this is going to be very specific to what I was going through when I moved, which I talk about in my book, but I was a workaholic, still have tinges of being a workaholic, but I was really driven by work and I put a lot of my worth and value in work.
And I moved here to have a new life and lifestyle. And I, I came with the right intention, but I didn't live it out. I just was like, I have this intention to be in a relaxed lifestyle and move away from New York city where I was living before this and like read and have peace and I did not and balance and like, yeah, I worked more when I moved to LA and had less balance of life than I did when I lived in Manhattan.
Oh my goodness. So this is a subtitle in one of the chapters of my book, chapter seven, but I would tell myself, you need to know. That work does not equal, worthy and. That goes under a lot of layers for performance for me, that I thought if I could perform and be the best and be everything everyone wanted me to be that it would make me feel worthy and that I would be seen as successful and worthy.
And God took that job away from me a year after living in LA and had to go through lots of piles of work, where is my identity, if it's not in work and performance and how do I separate. What is my worth just as an inherent woman. And how can I channel performance in a healthy way without it being what drives me in life?
So, yeah.
Tony: That's beautiful. That's, that's a great place. That's a great place to wrap this up. Thank you so much for being so generous today with your time and your hearts and all the things that you've done to help connect people truly, truly appreciate it,
Kait: Tony. Thanks for all the questions. This is so fun to sit down with you.
I love this.
Tony: I love the conversation with Kate today. I think it is such a good dialogue for so many of us. I really liked the way that she breaks down this whole system. Remember ask do. And I think when it comes to rejections, we all need a little bit of systems to help keep us in a good spot, because if you're anything like me, you're pretty much one day away from ending up in the wrong place with something that could happen to you as always the biggest comment you can give us, share this episode with a friend, leave a rating or review on iTunes.
And don't forget to hit that subscribe button. I appreciate it. So, so much next week, episode 95 and continue to inch closer to a hundred. Make sure you follow me on Instagram. So you don't miss some of the giveaways that we're going to do at week 100 at TW Milt and a as always. I am so appreciative of you.
Your being here makes a huge difference in this platform and what we get to do. So thank you so much. Have a great week. And I look forward to connecting with you real soon.
