#177: Kevin Sweeney: Making of a Mystic

Pastor Kevin Sweeney wants to guide you to a deeper understanding of a contemplative faith. 

https://www.spiritandtruth.life/

Links: 

https://www.instagram.com/kevinsweeney1/

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-church-needs-therapy/id1525310667

EP. 177

Tony: [00:00:00] Hey everybody. Welcome back to the reclamation podcast, where our goal is to help you reclaim good practices for following Jesus. My name is Tony and I'm your host today is episode 177 of the podcast where I sit down with author, pastor, and speaker, Kevin Sweeney. Now Kevin has a brand new resource out called making of a mystic.

Don't know what a mystic. Don't worry. We're gonna talk about it in the podcast. But Kevin's journey is all about how we need to relax. We need to open our hearts and minds to what God has in store for us. So if you find yourself a little tense, if you find yourself unsure about next steps, this is a great conversation for you.

And if you enjoy this conversation, do me a favor. Hit that subscribe button, wherever you listen to podcasts, leave a rating or review on iTunes or Spotify, and be sure to share this episode with a friend, your referrals are the greatest compliment you can give. And I'm so [00:01:00] thankful for each and every one of you, all of you who are part of the reclamation community now without any further ado.

Here's my conversation with Kevin Sweeney. Hey everybody. Welcome back to the podcast. I'm excited today to have, uh, pastor author and theologian. Kevin Sweeney. Kevin, thank you so much, uh, for being here today. 

Kevin: Yeah, I don't think anyone's referred to me as a theologian for like over 10 years. So I appreciate that.

Just to start off, give me a little, gimme a little bit of cred with the people. 

Tony: Little, I like to be the hype man. Always 

Kevin: help, help invite me in and get me ready. I appreciate that. Yeah. I've said this to hopefully all, but hope. Probably most of, of the people hosting podcasts I've been on as a first time.

Without seeing me on many other podcasts yet. Cause I'm just recording so many that haven't been out. I'm so grateful for the invitation, for the, the risk and the chance someone takes with the first time author that they're not as fam not familiar with. So. Tony. I'm, I'm grateful to [00:02:00] be here. This is my first thing of the morning besides getting the kids out of the house for preschool.

So it's eight, 13:00 AM. And I'm, I'm really grateful to be here with you. 

Tony: Well, I, I wanna jump right in and talk a little about, um, there's lots of different parts of your story that I wanna dive into, but I'm curious, how, how would you describe. Your calling. Cause I I've, I've now looked at your story a little bit and it's wide and diverse.

And so as you think about like, if someone's like, man, Kevin, what do you, what has God called you to do? How would you answer that question? Mm, 

Kevin: that, that's a great, great question. And I love how good questions oftentimes like this simple question of asking somebody, what do you want? Has the capacity to cut through so much complexity and help lead people to so much clarity on what they wanted in this case, what is my primary energy going towards?

Right? There's all this diversity of ways we can participate in the unique thing that Spirit's [00:03:00] doing in this world, this unfolding story of reconciliation and healing and movement towards justice, et cetera. But what is the unique way? What is, how is our voice joined into that symphony? And. For me, you know, historically you will see at times that the role of the mystic or the teacher is just simply to be an alarm clock.

Hmm. Whether the mystic is the one, who's an alarm clock, inviting people to wake up, wake up to what, how powerful they are to wake up to. That they have just like everybody else, a unique role and this unfolding story of creation that God is still creating. Right. This UN it's amazing to think about it, but this unfolding expanding universe, and somehow we're called to cultivate it and create for it and build for it.

So I think a part of my role is just as an alarm clock to wake people up to. The beauty and the mystery of [00:04:00] this moment and the mystery and the gift of your child next to you, who just wants to be seen. And, you know, the, the, the importance and the sacredness of whatever. The next thing you're working on building is.

So for me, it's not so much. I'm trying to tell people what to do. I'm trying to help them wake up to experience the depth and the sacredness and the joy of what they're doing as they do it. And to clarify what that might be. So I'm just this, you know, um, I texted a friend. He, I think he was on the show, Luke Norsworthy yeah, yeah, yeah.

He's like, yeah, he's like a new friend. Someone like introduced us and you know, I'm probably gonna be on his podcast with this book. And I made a joke to him. I'm like, I'm just a voice CRA calling out in the wilderness, you know, to him while he's in a CrossFit gym or something. right. But that's what it is.

You embrace. I love for people to wake up and like, Hey, this moment matters. Your life matters. And what you do matters. And also to wake up to somehow like [00:05:00] the mystics have told us historically, we're all. Okay. Here. And safe and loved, and grace is present and love is the deepest dimension of reality. And we can learn to rest and relax and settle into that and move beyond a lot of the grinding and grasping energy we have.

So I guess I'm just an alarm clock, dude. That's all I'm doing here. 

Tony: Uh, that, that man that opens up a lot of different discussions. I, I think there's probably somebody who's listening. Who's going okay. You're an alarm clock. How do I know if I'm. 

Kevin: Mm, that's a great question. That it is a, and as like I'm a person who has been involved in the incarnation, practical, pastoral, real people, real time, real life thing for about a decade.

My wife and I started a church here almost 10 years ago and the challenge know and the challenging part. And the funny part about that question is we don't always know. When parts of us [00:06:00] are asleep, I, until the right alarm clock comes around and you're like, whoa, I settled. I, I actually settled into a place of just managing this relationship instead of giving my life to it.

Oh, I need to wake up again to that. I need to be reminded of that. So the challenges, we don't always know when we're asleep, but we do know when we start to wake up. and we do know when a part of us starts to come alive of like, I didn't realize a part of me fell asleep to that dream and that desire cuz life and it was busy and I was surviving and I was scared and I was managing my life.

And then all of a sudden I woke up, but I think, I think joy. Is an indicator of when we're not sleeping. There's a sense of joy. I think when there's a sense of man, I wake up and there is a clarity of focus on what I'm doing. That's, that's the fruit of not being asleep. So joy intentionality, taking risks.

These are signs you're not asleep, which is a good thing. But the [00:07:00] that's the little mystery of being asleep is you don't know. Until you it's like being asleep, you know, you don't know until you wake up and you're like, oh shoot. I just fell asleep. My kid just jumped on my face and now I'm awake. 

Tony: yeah. I, I think, uh, yeah, I think sometimes being asleep is, uh, a lot like being in a rut.

Right. And it's, it's hard to know if we're in it or we're out of it. And sometimes you feel like you can see both sides. Um, now this journey to. To being an alarm clock, this journey to, um, this mantle that you wear as a mystic. Um, how, how did, how did you step into this calling this part of your calling?

How, and, and maybe, maybe for a lot of our audience, we should define what a mystic is and, uh, and, and take away some of any apprehension or fear that it's not some, you know sure. Which, which doctor on the beach, you. 

Kevin: Right, right. Well, I think one, what I hope people get from the [00:08:00] book is, you know, the feel of the mysticism of the every day.

And so I could say, you know, the book is about non-dual seeing, and it's also about choosing your kids overbuilding a platform right there. There's this large cosmic vision. That we have, that's always expressed through the concreteness of this moment and this person, and I hope people can feel that natural scale where we're zooming out and have this broad perspective than we're zooming in and actually being present in love.

And. You know, it's about pastoring from a liberated place that knows it has what it already seeks. So it's not the person who's seeking to get from other people. No, the truth is in what I'm giving, not what I'm trying to get from you, but on a practical level, the mystic is somebody who is defined by direct experience of God and of the sacred.

that transcends any particular beliefs we might have in any moment. So the foundation of my life from the time I had this [00:09:00] spontaneous awakening moment with God at 18 was not, oh, here's the beliefs I have about Jesus or here's my understanding of God in a theological sense. I didn't have that. I wasn't in youth groups.

I didn't know anything about. Any evangelical culture or youth groups. I never heard of these things as a teenager. I didn't know. Sometimes I look back I'm like, why didn't any kids ever invite me to youth group? And I'm like, well, probably because they heard how I was probably too far gone for them to think I would ever come at that point, but I had the spontaneous awakening moment that was direct immediate experience of knowing which for the mystic to know God in an experiential sense is always to be known.

By God it's to be seen by the eyes that are at the center of the universe that have a fixed gaze of love upon you. That never changes. It's like Hebrew six, 19. This anchor for our souls is this fixed presence that doesn't change. And you know, [00:10:00] the, from the beginning, my experience. Was not, let's talk about the details of the mango.

It was like, let's just eat the mango or let's talk about all the ways to describe the ocean. It was like, let's just jump in, then splash around and we can discuss it. And when it comes to theology and I have degrees in theology and I've done all those things, and of course we're gonna talk about it. Of course, we're gonna make sense of it verbally.

That's what we do. but the transformation and the life is in finding your life in the ocean, not having the right understanding of what salt water is. So I think for the mystic is a direct knowing and being known by God before, like the foundation is not me holding onto anything. The foundation is me trusting that I'm being held by everything.

And that's a very different starting point and a different continuing point in our life of. 

Tony: What are your thoughts on why the, the church specifically the north American church is so [00:11:00] apprehensive about embracing this idea? Right? It's cuz as I hear you talk about it, it makes perfect sense. And I I'm I'm like, yeah, that, like, it sounds so 

Kevin: good.

It sounds great. I wanna splash in the ocean. I wanna be in the ocean. Right. 

Tony: and yet, yet I could go to any number of the amazing churches in my community and uh, No, one's talking about the ocean, so to speak, you know, mm-hmm, where where's the tension in, uh, our culture with this idea? 

Kevin: Well, I think one, you can't control people's experience.

Hmm. And that you can't always systematize it. You can't always place it into neat categories. I mean, look at my story. I have a chapter in the book called mushrooms and missionaries . And it's about how, if you look at the role of missionaries and, you know, if you suspend missionary being caught up in a colonizing white supremacist, Eurocentric dominating empire building [00:12:00] endeavor, which that word is in many ways.

But if you look at. In the positive, healthy sense of it. It's a missionary, someone who's pointing someone further towards Christ. That's a good thing. Yeah. Someone pointing someone further towards the way of Jesus. That's a beautiful thing. That's a big part of my life is doing that. And when. So when I, when I tell that story, it's, you know, I tell the story of Thomas Merton, one of the great mystics of the 20th century, great Catholic monk, and early on in his life, when he was starting to get closer to his awakening experience, there was this famous Hindu monk Mahata bra Machar, who was visiting the states.

And he was, you know, lecturing at probably some divinity schools or whatever. And Thomas Merton. Finds out he's doing it. And he kind of finds his way towards him. You know, it's like after a conference or a church, you're like, Hey, let's go talk to the pastor. No, wait, look, look, oh, wait, there's an opening.

Go, go, go, boom. Hey. And he had his own, he had his own version of that with this great [00:13:00] Hindu teacher. And so Merton as this young white male in the west, goes up to him and asks him for guidance. And then this Hindu monk brilliantly and amazingly doesn't point him to his own sacred text from his tradition.

He tells him to read St. Augustine's confessions. He tells him to read Thomas Atkins's imitation of Christ. Let's say those get integrated into his journey. Thomas Merton is this one of the most amazing Christians in the 20th century. I tell that story, cuz I don't think it was in that Hindu monks job description to be a missionary for Jesus.

Yeah. But if you look at the functionality of that and the role I'm like he, he was pointing him further towards the fullness of life in Christ mysteriously. Now in my journey. Mushrooms, you know, with, with the psychotropic property of psilocybin, as people know it were the missionaries pointing me beyond themselves towards the fullness of truth and life and [00:14:00] love and the ocean of the river of love of Christ.

And. I say that because when it comes to experience, man, this person said I was sitting under a tree in the light lit there certain way. And all of a sudden, I just felt a sense of connection with everything. What do you, there's no systematic theology for that really? I mean, yeah. You can talk about natural revelation.

You can talk about Provin grace, and we have these helpful categories that are, that are helpful, but it doesn't capture that experience. It doesn't doesn't you can't, it's not in this totality caught up in words or this person. my mother died. And when she left, all of a sudden, I just knew the spirit was with me.

Okay. This person, the love of my girlfriend at the time, who's now my wife, her seeing me for who I was as a teenager, opened me up for the first time to trust that I'm seen by God. Okay. What did we do? So to me, I'm like one, you can't control people's experience because it's beyond the categories that we have for a sense of [00:15:00] control and two.

Post enlightenment, modern, sophisticated, educated, highly rational, right. Brain people like we've all been shaped to be think faith can totally exist in the right side of our head with propositions and categories. And we think we are our beliefs. And when you have a direct experience of God, You know, I have beliefs, but whoever I am in Christ is beyond and before, whatever beliefs I have.

So beliefs and experience have a co-mingling and important relationship, but they're not the same thing. There's a difference between spiritual intelligence, how we see God reality and humanity and spiritual experience, a direct knowing. And I think we've been so right brained. We're like to be a Christian is to have the right beliefs.

Jesus and the mystic and the experiential person says no to be a Christian or person of faith is to be, have a direct, immediate experience of the [00:16:00] spirit who dwells within and the beliefs are helpful, but they can't capture and categorize that. So it's a little scary for a pastor to hear my story. You know, and be like, so you ate mushrooms and then a couple years later you're want you think you're gonna be a pastor now, how does that work?

And yet if you read the book, you're like, it actually makes sense when you see the trajectory of my life in an unusual experience. So, yeah. 

Tony: Do you ever, um, So you have, you have two kids of your own, who I I've sufficiently Instagram have sufficiently Instagram stalked you. Um, nice. Would you, uh, would you give your kids mushrooms?

Kevin: Oh, I, I mean, my kids that's a eat some, yeah, I will. My, my kids, I mean one, you know, if they eat some broccoli, I'll be happy. You know, they're not big fans of even regular mushroom. , but I think the [00:17:00] question of obviously three and five year olds, wouldn't be taking psychedelic. Let's either one. I mean, Yeah, they're older teenagers.

I tell people my book is not prescriptive at all. Sure. My experience, my book is me just owning my own story. Right. And my story is when I sensed these psychedelics as a teenager, cause I started taking mushrooms. That's. 16 and stopped when I was 18, when I had my, the first direct encounter of God, for me, I always felt the mushroom saying yes, but keep going, like, you're getting a glimpse, but there's the goal.

There's a part of it you're seeing, but the truth is always beyond it. You know, it was pointing me beyond itself. So I'm like the mushrooms were signs. They were directions pointing me to the ocean. And once I got to the ocean, I had that experience. I was like, oh, I don't need the signs anymore. Cuz I'm.

Got it. My life is not going back to just have a guaranteed experience or to the signs that would be going backwards. They've pointed me to the source itself, which is God. My life is to wake up and stay in Christ through practices and [00:18:00] meditation and silence for the rest of my life. And so even the question about my kids when they're older or people in my church, for example, or whoever is like, Can I tell people a simple, a simple thing of, well, I think psychedelics are always evil and therefore, no, like, well, no, I can't say that.

Do I ever per directly prescribe them to people? I, no, I don't sure. And I'm also, I'm somewhat ambivalent about the current resurgence, you know, and focus on psychedelics and ketamine therapy in this. Because on the one hand, I can see if you're looking at it, how those forms of therapy can produce positive effects in people's life.

As a person who grew up in a culture of just doing drugs all the time. I also know most of the people I did psychedelics with. They're not enlightened gurus. They're not leaders for justice. They're not the leading voices of compassion, et cetera. They just like to do drugs. You know? So for me, [00:19:00] I have that, like, I can't just give a blanket no to it, but I'm also not prescribing it.

And I also think a lot of people just wanna do drugs and get high cuz they make them feel groovy and not everyone's on a conscious spiritual quest. And so to me, I have a lot of mixed feelings, but I will say no matter what, no matter what people choose to do. The real work always happens after the peak experience, whether you're doing mushrooms or you're going to a big Christian conference or a deliverance night.

Oh no, it's burning, man. No, it's uh, this next conference, whatever thing, people can have a peak experience of God on, in different ways and different traditions for me. Whatever we see on the peak has to be transformed into who we are in the path. The vision we get at the mountaintop has to become the values that are woven into the very depths of our being and that work right there of not just believing something strongly, but becoming [00:20:00] it in your day to day.

Life. That real work is always silence and solitude. Life with God over letting go of illusions and addressing the old hurt and pain facing that, overcoming it, letting go acceptance, forgiveness, courage. That's always the real work. So for anybody who's doing, regardless of what their peak moments are like, the real work is not Saturday night.

It's Thursday morning and Wednesday afternoon. And are you gonna choose to have that hard conversation with your partner today? That's the real work. Are you gonna practice acceptance and forgiveness when things didn't go your way. That's the real work. So to me, I'm, regardless of how people see that that is always, the work is, is Friday night when the high is over.

Who are we? And what are we doing now in our intentional life? 

Tony: Yeah, one of the things we say around here a lot is that if you're not, uh, if you're not dedicated to your disciplines, you'll be destroyed by your distractions. 

Kevin: Mm, it's so good. 

Tony: And so I, I am curious, what are some of the daily things that you do to [00:21:00] keep the right, um, heart?

Kevin: Hmm. Yes. No, I, and I love that question because it's directly connected with what

we're talking about. Yeah. There's the peak experience then there's the everyday path of us. Are the practices that help a person consciously experience their true self directly experience the grace and love of God. So we, each morning when we do that, we begin with the conclusion. Mm, whatever your ego wants to go grind and grasp for and fight for, and try to earn from others.

If you wake up in that place for 20 minutes of silence, this moment of how, whatever practices you have, it is a direct experience of, oh, everything. A part of me wants to go hustle for has been given to me as a gift. And each morning I can slowly and silently. Allow [00:22:00] grace and the spirit and the presence of God to open me up, undo me, allow all of that to flow in, put me back together.

I can begin my day of the fact. I already know who I am. So what I would just tell people, whatever practices are helping you directly know that you're loved help you stop long enough to experience the spirits. That's like, Hey, it it's already here. In the breath, the miracle, the gift, the gospel, grace, it's in the breath within you and it's already here.

So for me, that would be 20 minutes of silence. I do. Every time I'm in silence, I do this, this, uh, breath practice. It takes about eight minutes. That helps me be present. I mean, if you really want to know details, I could tell you the practicality of that. And then the next 12 minutes or so in the 20 minutes is me having this slow, loving dialogue and conversation with God.

Sometimes I will use books from the mystics that I've [00:23:00] already read as like a form of Alexio D Venus. So. I'll pull out this Ken Wilber book or Richard rower book, or a Mira by star book. And I don't read it, cuz reading will take you so into your head. It takes you out of your body and your heart. But I just look at one line that says something about this phrase ever present awareness.

And like I just sit with that one phrase of besides all of the objects arising in our awareness. There's this ever present awareness, this ever present presence of God that never moves. And I'll sit with that for a minute. I might say a couple more words where I'm not really saying a lot. I'm just kind of saying a little bit, and it's actually the energetics and loving space between the words that is my life that I'm taking in in the moment.

So I have a practice of 20 minutes of some version of that. That is my usual thing. And all of a sudden. I wanna begin my creative life, my building, my whatever work I have to do of compassion and justice or [00:24:00] waking up, et cetera, to say. Oh, I'm not going out there trying to earn the name that is directly given to me by God that I can wake up and trust each and every morning and whatever practice helps a person do that.

That's what they should do more. If you need to go on a walk for 20 minutes, cuz you're you have a monkey mind that can't sit still. Go take the walk, the walking meditation and your body moving will help your mind and your heart and body align. That's great. Do that. If hanging upside down on moon boots somehow helps you be present, you know, and you're like the blood rushers to my head and I can't think, and I go for it cuz.

All spiritual practices are fingers pointing to the moon. They're not the point. They're pointing us beyond themselves towards the reality of God and the presence of love and whatever practices help ground us in that we have to return to that over and over and over just like we return to our lovers and our spouses.

We return to our kids when we sometimes forget, and we're busy doing stuff we return again and again. And we are like, this is [00:25:00] everything's here. Everything is right here. And then I can continue my life after that. 

Tony: Do you have any suggestions or thoughts on finding, um, resources that help point us in that direction?

Like, I, I I'm imagining that there's a lot of people who are just don't know how to really sit in silence. They've never really done a walking meditation, you know, these kind of, um, again, not maybe not prescriptions necessarily, but practices. Oh yeah. Yeah. We tried. 

Kevin: I think about it. That's such a great question.

Cuz I think about like contemplation and meditation and prayer as like a wide open field or like say you go to a new place, like a botanical gardens and they're like, Hey, go explore. And you're like, but without a path and a legend and a map, I don't, how do I, I feel overwhelmed. I don't know where to start.

Can I eat these mangoes off the tree? Can I climb this tree? Should I just sit here? I, I don't wanna miss anything. So now I'm just like a chicken with my head cut off, [00:26:00] running around. And that's, that's why practices are like a path through a field that through the specific path, they help you experience the beauty of the whole mm-hmm

So in our own tradition, for example, something like the prayer of examine. Ignatius this prayer of examine. You could, anybody can Google prayer of examine and you'll find multiple versions of it. But the prayer of examine is a contemplative way of looking back at your day and saying, where was my heart closed?

Where was my heart open? Where did I sense God, where did I shut down? And it helps you reorganize your way through the sacred sort of thread of the spirit and also help you connect with God in the process. That's a great practice and a path through the life of the spirit. Another one would be, uh, I mean, I'm trying to think there's so many good, like, uh, look up Lexio Divina, L E C T I O D I V I N a.

There you'll find guides on Lexio [00:27:00] Divina. How do you read the scriptures in a contemplative? Sort of silent and slow weight where you allow the sacred text to become your guide through a time of contemplation. Those are probably the two most practical and well known Lexi Divina, prayer of examine that people do.

If some in a, and the funny thing is there was a guy from our church years ago, we were talking about practices and being grounded. And when we talked about silence, I said, If you commit, let's say four times a week, you know, 20 minute sits. That's a kind of a common contemplative sit. 20 minute sits four times a week for five years.

You'll start to get it.

When it comes, when it comes to like pure silence. Cause it's hard. Like it's like what you said about disciplines and distractions, spiritual disciplines. Yeah. It requires discipline. I have had a practice of silence for like 20 years. Because my life started with [00:28:00] that, right. I started with direct experience.

I started with silence. I didn't start with forms and beliefs. I didn't have that yet. That came later and still to this day, I still feel resistance within me going into a time of silence because. It requires something from me the rest of my day to day life doesn't and I tell people, what are you do in silence?

Nothing. That's why it's so hard, right? Because we're good at doing. Can I, can I check this in to-do list? I just did 20 minutes of nothing. Let me just click that off, you know? I'm like, it requires nothing, but it costs you everything. Yeah. It re that's the that's the, the paradox of the mystic says in silence, you experience a nothingness and in that nothingness, you discover everything and it's just a commitment to return to over and over.

Hey, that's 20, there's a great story. Thomas Keating, like this sort of this father of centering prayer in the west. Sure. And there's this story? I think it was like this, this [00:29:00] nun who came out to him after a talk and she's like, father. You know, tried, you know, centering prayer, which, you know, is something he kind of helped awaken people to.

I tried centering prayer and I'm just so miserable at it. You know, I, I feel like I lost my train of thought 10,000 times and Thomas Keating in his like, you know, wisdom and grace looks at her and says, ah, it's 10,000 opportunities to return to. And in our life of silence and prayer and in our life as in our relationships.

Sure. Think about when you're married, there's 10,000 opportunities to return to your spouse and be like, Hey. That that wasn't okay. I'm sorry. Let's be, can we begin again? You know, that tshuva, that Hebrew were to return, which, which is really the gift of the word repenting to turn into return. We don't just return to return to God.

We return to each other. We return to our true selves again and again and again in spiritual practices are like that. Oh, I didn't do it for a week. Hey, the MIS the mystery of the gospel [00:30:00] is that the spirits just like whenever you're. Let's begin again. And that's how prayer works too. Hey 

Tony: guys, just pause in this conversation with Kevin to remind you about the spirit and truth.

Living the faith, Facebook. You've heard me talk about spirit and truth before the 5 0 1 C3 ministry that the reclamation podcast is a part of. We have a Facebook group that you need to jump into. We talk about all, about what it means to live the faith. There's lots of prompts in there. Lots of great pastors.

You're gonna love being a part of this community. Go to spirit and truth on Facebook, like our Facebook page, and then request access to the group. It's a great way to take your next step in growing in the faith. Now let's continue this conversation with Kevin. So the God's really been, uh, like almost nudging my heart about this silent thing.

And last year I did my first silent retreat. Um, wow. For, for three days it was horrible. [00:31:00] Um, it was

uh, I, I signed up again to go again this year, because a again, because I know I need it, right. Like it, it was, yes, it was really hard cuz I'm a talker and I'm a verbal processor. And did I walk up and down these country roads and talk to myself? I might have. I might have and that's okay. Right. But I'm up to, um, three to five times a week.

I sit in silence for I'm up to 10 minutes now. Um, wow. And it's, you know, like, like you said, it's, it is kind of a, it's a, it's a constant work in progress and that's, that's good. I guess, you know, that's I like to find those edges, those, those edges of my life, where God's clearly working and this is definitely it.

Mm-hmm . How, how do, how did you, um, I mean, I know you've been doing this for a long time. How, how do you encourage people when it feels like they're failing at it? Or can you fail at it? 

Kevin: Well, I think failure in [00:32:00] those terms is so defined in by cultural ways and whatever we carry. So it's like, Like the story of that nun, she felt like a failure cuz in a 20 minute sit her mind wandered 10,000 times.

But the, the, the real juice, the real important thing is not whether or not your mind wandered it's whether or not you have the courage to return. And I would zoom out and say, that's true for just anything in life. Yeah. You know, when you start to have the edges of your idealism and rough, uh, Sandpapered out by the crucible of real life, which you do as a leader and a pastor and a spouse, or whate by as a parent, you're like, oh, this nothing is nothing.

Is what I thought it was. you know, and that's okay. The sooner you can accept that and let go of it, the more you're ready to open up to what God really wants to create it to be. Cuz you've let go of your idealisms now. And. I think it's, it's just a, it's the art of returning again and again and again, to the practice, you know, there's been times in my life and I'm quite comfortable in [00:33:00] silence where I'm like, oh, like when I'm in my twenties or whatever, a couple weeks went by, I'm like, I haven't sat in intentional silence for whatever the reasons are.

And then I just return and then we keep going. And that to me is one of the great gifts. You know, when Richard roar says something like all the great mystics and all the great knowers of God throughout history, they've never met a dictated. They've always met a lover in God, and that's the gift of silence.

And that's a gift of really knowing God is you're like, God is not one who shames, manipulates, coerces. Um, forces you to replay the past, cuz they're, they're just harassing you. No, every time you return the, as revelation, I believe three 20 says, you know, that knocking at the door imagery is like the hum, really?

The hu this is something that amazes me the humility and vulnerability of a God who says whenever you're ready, let's. You know, we feel [00:34:00] like we, we don't realize it, but we have a lot of conditions on allowing people to return, you know, even as a pastor. Sure. There's a lot of temptations of like the ego could say, I did this, this and this for you and you didn't show appreciation.

Therefore, next time you come back, I'm actually gonna withhold or keep distance or, or I might have a personality that kind of like shames you and manipulates you to do what I want. Be cetera. No, we learn it to be shaped into the image of Christ. Likeness is to embody the same love. That's. I will offer you guidance.

I will love you. I will go with you, but I will do so. and it's your call? How far I go with you? When I go with you, how I go with you? The humility of that spirit, who consistently does that and never shames us when we return for me is when you talk about waking up, waking up to that reality is a powerful thing.

I can return again. To the open arms of a mother, to the warmth of a father, to the embrace of a sister, to the friendship of a brother, to the closeness of a friend, God is all of those things. And [00:35:00] more, every single time we return and when it comes to spiritual practices, it's the same thing. You didn't do it for a week.

It's okay. You can return your mind wandered. And you're thinking about your you're going over a, you just had. In 10 seconds, you practiced what you were gonna say on a podcast, gave a speech in front of people and said how you were gonna tell that person off. And you're like, I'm supposed to be praying right now.

What am I doing? and then we return. And we're like, to me, I'm like I say, this playfully to myself all the time, not in a real shaming way, but as a joke, I'm like, I'm an idiot. right. Cause I am, you know, I'm like, I'm an idiot and I'm a Saint at the same time. And I, when I made that mistake, I'm like, Like mirror by star, this great living mystic whose work I just love.

She says the ego is a practical joke that we keep falling for. Mm, that little part of your ego, that's like, no, you better prove to them why you're important. Hey, they don't know about your accolades. You better tell 'em you better give 'em your res that's just the insecure ego who still feels the [00:36:00] need to prove ourselves to people who are around instead of letting ourselves be who we are.

And we, and our ego wants to do that. And sometimes we fall for it. And when we do afterwards, we're not, God's not beating us up and shaming us over it. It's just kinda like this smile of like, oh, I did that again, cuz I'm an idiot. And now it's time to return to my true self, you know? There's the graciousness of allowing ourselves to return is not just big in practices, but in everything.

Yeah. In life, the grace to return is everything. That's 

Tony: beautiful. Uh, I, I'm curious, uh, you know, and, and if this is too personal, don't feel like you have to answer. Um, God is clearly working in your life now, as you, you know, for the last 10 years you've been leading a, a local urban church and, um, As you've very publicly shared that, uh, that season is coming to an end.

And so I always love to hear from people. Um, how do you know when, when God is nudging you, that one thing [00:37:00] ends and the next thing begins and, and I'm also really curious, what's the next thing for you? 

Kevin: Mm. Yeah. I mean, I I'm, I'm glad you asked the question. I have no problems talking about this at all, but I appreciate you framing it in that way in such a caring and thoughtful way.

Something that I stay with me that has always exists with Demi. When I think about seasons and where we're giving our energy to is the Mo your G2 is the moment. The moment you're not willing to suffer for your art anymore. , you know, things are changing, right? Mm-hmm, , that's from an artist's perspective, but that could be the, the moment you're not willing to suffer for your calling your vocation or whatever it is, cuz the hard work, the sacrifices when you really love something and you really are staying true to your vocation, you know that your voice, that Latin word VOCA.

You will, you do the hard stuff for it. And even though it's hard, it's still held within the envelope [00:38:00] of man. I love all this and I will, I will, oh, this person's late to the bar setting up. I'll stack these. I'll start to set up by myself. Yeah. I wish somebody else was here, but like, that's okay. You know, you do.

Yeah. You show up early, you do, you stay up late. Sometimes you do this cuz the hard work is a part of it. And that's a great gift when you have that. It's, it's amazing when things start to shift. So. COVID hits obviously. And for, for imagine for our church, it sucks because. We had just went through this transition.

We brought on our first, like other person on staff besides my wife and I who's like my best friend out here, Larry. And it went well and he's just, you know, he's doing his thing. And we, we transitioned into a new space, which was like a big risk and a big move. And we transitioned and we're like, man, that really became everything we hoped it would be.

And it's like this great space and this great co-working space out here. We're in there for six months or so. And then COVID hits and. [00:39:00] Over time, you know, like 90% of the energy I spent day to day pastoring stopped. It just did the changes in Hawaii was always the, one of the strictest states when it came to stuff.

Sure. So we had even more restrictions and that's when I started writing, you know, I didn't go into planning to write the, this book came out of it. Life is not always this romantic. It just happened for me in this moment where I was up in the mountains here in Hawaii in a time of silence. And it was like a snap of a fingers.

And I was like, that's a book. And it just, I came home and it, and just singularly focused on this book for like three to four months. And it was like done, like something, it was like work like that, you know? Yeah. It was, it was that's the book making of a mystic by the way. And you know, my life started the day to day, started to shift where I'm like, man, all this energy is now in writing.

And obviously with my kids, they were young at the time, even younger, not in preschool and doing things and. I, when last fall, after not meeting for 18 months, we [00:40:00] would do once a month, you know, like let's do an outdoor thing or whatever. Yeah. But after 18 months of not meeting consistently, my wife and I sensed there is this chapter for imagine to be born again.

Hmm. And we really believed that and we were willing to open our hearts again, we were willing to take that risk again. We were willing to go all in, again, as hard as that is after 10 years in COVID, you know, it's not an easy thing to do. We were there. And, you know, after watching the Michael Jordan documentary on Netflix, the last dance, which I grew up playing basketball, like I've watched that.

I want to say five times, I'm not joking. and we were like, we knew in our hearts, this is the last dance. Yeah, like this is a two to three year chapter of rebuilding. And in this role, which I always sensed, I would do for about 10 years. Like this is the last time, but about four to six weeks into reopening.

I started to get the sense of this is the last chapter and it's not a two to three year chapter rebuilding. It's the last chapter. [00:41:00] And, and this is it. And we're gonna, it's a chapter of closing it down. And my metaphor for imagine started to shift into one of hospice care. Hmm. Cause I'm like, When you're going the way you relate to somebody when you're fighting for their life and trying to prolong their life is very different from the moment you come to terms with there's an expiration date.

And the goal now is not duration and it's not quantity it's quality. And how present can I be to this person, to this living being it's how, which is how I see the church as a living entity. Yeah. And so, you know, we started to make that shift and the acceptance, the letting go the oh, like. The things like when you're not willing to suffer for your art, I'm like the things I used to do for seven years, the thought of doing some of those things now and exerting that much energy feels impossible to me.

Hmm. It just feels, dude. There's no way I would ever do that. Like, but I did that for seven years. I can start to, there was a moment where I [00:42:00] was like, I have. All kinds of imagination and ideas for the future. And none of it has to do with imagine. Hmm. It has to do with a life after imagine. And I'm paying attention to that.

Oh, I still have all of this creative energy in me that wants to build and create and be that alarm clock and do it, but oh, none of it seems like it's filtered through the community. Oh, I, I can feel my body. And heart and mind shifting towards the next season. And this is what I tell people when it comes to like my wife's a marriage and family therapist, and she was a pastor too.

She's a pastor, I imagine. And we, I talk to her about this idea of clarity and courage, where I'm like you go to therapy and there's some moments and some chapters of therapy where you're seeking clarity. Why do I do this? Why do I keep returning to this pattern? Why do I feel stuck? Why am I whatever. But once you have clarity, Clarity is no longer the issue that the issue now is to have the [00:43:00] courage, to make decisions out of that clarity.

You have the clarity, oh, guess what? In the end, you just have to forgive your father, which for some of you, it's like 40% of you, you know, right now. right. So I'm like the clarity, you have the clarity, but now it's not about clarity. It's about having the courage to forgive. Yeah. Which is a whole different that that involves your body, the other one's just in your mind.

And so. When I had that clarity of, oh, this is a transitional season. Well, now I need the courage. My wife and I like, is this really where we are. We have to make this decision together. Now we have to return have that conversation with people multiple times. We have to make a plan for the end of how to be faithful to this.

And also the courage where your ego, your insecure ego could be like, What are people gonna think? Are people gonna think this is a failure? Are they gonna think COVID and we just COVID destroyed another church. Do we not have what it takes? Your ego will be so fearful of what people will think. But if you're grounded, like I said, as the mystic and the true self in Christ, you're like, that is all [00:44:00] out of my control.

And my job is not to manage other people's perception of me or other people's narrative about imagine my job is to be faithful, to what I sense the spirit has invited us into from the beginning. And that's all I'm supposed to do. And I think that's a big thing is. when there's it's you feel like you have less and less energy to suffer and sacrifice for the thing that you love.

And when your imagination starts to take you to other places creatively, it's possible, it's possible. You're heading towards some edges of the transition. The Spirit's inviting you into something new, which will require a tremendous amount of courage to take that like. To tell the story of a defining moment for this chapter.

We surprised our kids with a trip to New York city, like Christmas night, you know, so we took 'em there cause I was telling my daughter all about it. It was really, it was awesome. And one of my last days there, I spent some time in silence and in prayer, walking the Highline, which is like this outdoor park in New York city.

And it was a [00:45:00] very slow template of like com dialogue out loud with God as I'm walking. which I'm sure disturbed, the people who were passing me by and walking much faster. I was walking really slow and talking to myself. And in that moment I thought to myself, oh, it seems like every 10 years, my life is completely upended.

Hmm. At 18, after that spontaneous experience of God. I walked away from playing sports in college. I walked away from a possibility of a career music. I moved away where my girlfriend was in Hawaii at the time and started over when nobody understood and people were very disappointed, but I knew what I was doing at 28.

I did the same thing, moving back to Hawaii or to start, imagine financial risks and none of this makes sense. And yet here's what we're doing, cuz I sense the spirit calling us into. Big risk at 28 living back. And I'm like, whoa, I'm 37. And I'm about to turn 38 that in, in 2022. And I think to myself, it [00:46:00] appears I'm approaching another one of those big risks.

And as we get older, the older we get the harder it is to take risks. Hmm. Cause I'm not 22. My wife and I are like, let's both have restaurant jobs and just pay the bills and go to school. That's it? What risks do we have? You know, like, they're real, but it's different. There's a different gravity. Yeah. Yeah.

And weight. When I have two kids and I have a wife, you know, and we have a life together and we have a place we live. But to me, the freedom to keep following the, the invitational pull of the loving spirit, wherever it calls me is, is the foundation of my life. Wherever it takes me. And to start over 38 is really scary and it's hard.

But I'm approaching the edge again. And I'm like, this is, this is another one of those times. And it makes no sense to some people, but deep down, just like the other ones, I know exactly what I'm doing and yes, it's uncertain and [00:47:00] yes, I don't have all the details, but it seems that's how this whole thing works.

Sometimes you have to be willing to say yes to the next two steps when you don't know what step 13 and 14 are feel like, and you just have to trust the next two and the unfolding. Path happens in this co-creative process of the invitation of God and the courage of us to keep going. And as a mystic whose life is built on just trusting the spirit, I'm like, I'm quite comfortable with all that ambiguity and uncertainty, cuz it's an adventure I'm like to me, this whole thing's an adventure.

I'm like, we love adventure movies. We love Lord of the rings, but I'm like Toto and Sam, that was a real risk. they thought they would be killed. You had the vantage point to note, well, they're gonna make it no, but in your life, yes, 10 years later, you'd be like, Hey, that's what happened. But in the moment it's a real risk and you could lose everything or break through to this next chapter of your life.

And to me. When you're young [00:48:00] faith is about what you believe when you get older, faith is about how much you're willing to risk for the sake of truth and love. Hmm. And so that's, that's where I'm at again. And it's, it's real, you know, and I'm also like, man, I have all this energy and excitement for the future.

After the real work of letting go of grieving the old. Yeah, 

Tony: that's really good. I, I, uh, that's worth the price of admission right there. So , uh, I have one more question for you, but before I ask it, I know that my listeners are gonna connect on, uh, with you all over the Innerwebs. Where is the, the best place to pick up their copy of the book and to learn more about, um, the work that God has called you to.

Kevin: Yes, May 31st. Me and my publish are not doing pre-orders for specific reasons, you know, but May 31st on Amazon, the make Kevin Sweeney the making of a mystic subtitle, my journey with mushrooms, my life as a pastor and why it's okay for everyone to relax, which [00:49:00] I just love saying that by the way, May 31st find that.

Um, the best way to follow day to day, especially leading up to the book and what I'm working on is on Instagram at Kevin Sweeney one. And I also have my own podcast called the church needs therapy, where half of it are with guests, half of me doing my own teaching. So that's where some of my energy goes to as well.

So those are probably the best places to, to start and follow along. Thank you for asking. 

Tony: Yeah, I, uh, I, I listen to one of your podcast episodes today as a matter of fact, and prepping for our time together. And it's, uh, it's really good. Some deep thoughts is good thoughts though. So I encourage everybody to go hit that subscribe button wherever you listen to podcast and make sure you don't miss it.

Appreciate, uh, okay. Last question. I always love to ask people. It's an advice question, except I'm gonna ask you to give yourself, uh, one particular. Piece of advice and I get to name the, the day and the time. And so I'm gonna take you back, um, to your first Sunday [00:50:00] as the, the Copa of imagine church 10 years ago today or not today, but 10, 10 years ago, uh, from today.

Um, if you could pull a chair up in front of that younger version of yourself that, that young, energetic young man, and sit knee a knee with him and look him in the eyes. What's the one piece of advice you're gonna give them. 

Kevin: Hmm.

You know, I would, the same piece of advice I would give to the 28 year old starting imagine is the same piece of advice I would give to the 18 year old, who just had that experience of God. Who's gonna leave everything and move away. And it would be some version of everything you sense deep down and you know, is true and real is.

And just trust that. Hmm. Because I didn't have, I didn't have those kinds of guides. You know, when I started the church, I had some, [00:51:00] you know, friends and pastors come alongside of me. And I was also doing things different in my own ways than, than some of them. And at 18 to have that experience I had, which I had to, I had to trust my own inner compass of the presence of the spirit within me.

And. I would just say what I wished somebody else would say to me, but never did to be like, Hey, everything you experienced is real everything you sense about where you're going is true and good. Just keep going. Hmm. And I didn't have that. And I had to trust that. So I would go back and basically just reaffirm what I sensed.

I all was there. And to broaden this out for a sec, you know, I have a chapter in the book called, uh, Like vicarious value. I, I forget what the chapter is, but it's a story about, you know, how our ego has all these fantasies when we go to a conference and we're like the main speaker, whoever our kind of main person is at the time.

It's [00:52:00] Richard RO no, it's this person. No, it's that person. And we think we're gonna go there and the speaker's gonna like single us out, call us up in front of people and be like, everybody, this is the one right here. , this is the one you need to listen to. This is the one who has all the answers, please.

Like, you know, he's the one basically, and we all think that's gonna happen. Like I'm gonna be best friends with this person, or maybe they're gonna like whatever. Sure. And I think to myself, well, what is that? I mean, what do we really desire from that? Cause I feel like it's a pretty common thing to have beneath the surface.

What are we, what are we looking for in that? If that statement happened, validation, permission. Affirmation. And to me while it's normal, to want those things from an authority figure, we don't need them. Yeah. Because the authorizing presence and power of the spirit within is I is already whispering. You know, that's true about you.

You know, you can do that. [00:53:00] The gift you sense, you have, you have the thing you think you can create. You, you can. the part of you that you think is special. You have to give to this world. It is, and the spirits, the authorizing presence and power of the spirits, like just do that and trust that and give your life to it.

And so for me, it's great to have that when other people, when you have leaders and mentors affirm those things within you, it's so powerful. but on a deeper level, there's times where to step into the fullness of our voice. We have to trust the spirit within us saying that's already true. You're looking for that person to confirm what you already know, and I'm telling you it's real and keep going.

So that's what I would say to that kid is whatever you sense. Just, just keep going. Yeah, 

Tony: that's so good, man. Uh, Kevin, I'm so thankful for your generosity of your time today and your heart and for this writing and just praying for what God's gonna do through this book. Mm-hmm and, uh, hopefully it [00:54:00] does get a whole lot of people to relax a little 

Kevin: bit yes.

And, you know, For someone like yourself, Tony, I feel like one of my things I bring to the world when I have friends who are great, like I'm so horrible, there's so much of leadership and pastoral leadership. I'm terrible at, you know, it's like, I joke with my friends six years into the church, I'll still Google, like what to do in a meeting when I'm responsible for running it

So there's so many parts of leading. I had to like grow into so many weaknesses organizationally and I'm grateful for that time. But when I have friends who are higher capacity, you know, really like let's get stuff going that apostolic the entrepreneurial mm-hmm , you know, someone, I don't know you well enough, but someone who does things and leads, I feel like I'm, I'm like the brother who's like, Hey, and also, this is all for you too.

Yeah, all the joy you want for other people is for you the rest. That's why, when you said help people relax. And that's what I think I can bring to people. It's like, I can't do what other people do on that level [00:55:00] of leadership. But also to me I'm like, and this is also all for us to enjoy. And I want to help my friends who bring so much good into the world, also experience the goodness and the depths of their being.

And so for you, for all my friends who are like that, people listening in, that's what I hope for everybody. So good. So grateful for this time, man. Uh, yeah. I look forward to staying in touch man, as things unfold and I appreciate the prayers. However, they come. 

Tony: Absolutely friends. Thank you so much for being a part of this episode.

I love Kevin's heart. I love his laid back mojo. You know what I mean? He's just such a good dude. And he is got a heart for the Lord. If you do enjoy this, make sure you go follow him on socials. Tell him that you heard him here on the reclamation podcast and be sure to share this episode with a friend.

It's the highest compliment you can give us. We'll be back later this week with a monologue episode. And remember if you want to follow Jesus, you must be willing to move.