#119: Rachel Cruze: Know Yourself, Know Your Money
Rachel Cruze is a best-selling author, speaker, and the daughter of financial legend Dave Ramsey. In our conversation we talk about the lessons learned growing up, finding out what we value, and a little bit of life in-between.
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EP. 119 FULL TRANSCRIPTS
Tony: Hey everybody. Welcome back to the Reclamation Podcast, where our goal is to help you reclaim good practices for faith and life. My name is Tony. And today I get to sit down with New York times bestselling author speaker, and utuber personality for Ramsey solutions, none others. Then Rachel Cruz, Rachel has a brand new resource out know yourself, know your money, and we get into so much today about how our fees.
And safety and status and how it all just kind of rolls into our behaviors with our finances. I think you're gonna find this such an incredible question. We got into so many good things in her new book, she taught. Classrooms. And whether you grew up in an anxious, unstable, unaware, or secure classroom, and what that has to do with your money today, if you've a deal with money on a record, their basis, AKA, if you're alive, you're going to love this conversation.
And if you do love it, do me a favor, hit that subscribe button. So you don't miss any future episodes. Also be sure to take a minute, leave a rating review for us on iTunes. And if you can share this podcast with a friend, maybe somebody who, you know, I asked you about some money stuff recently, or somebody who's a big Dave Ramsey nut, and any of that stuff is going to be good for for anybody who wants to, to get a little bit better with them.
Hey, I don't know if you guys knew this or not, but we are a part of the spirit and truth podcast network. And we're a group of like-minded individuals who are committed to advancing the kingdom of God to learn more about spirit and truth. Check them out spirit and truth.life. Now, without any further ado, here's my conversation with none other than Rachel Cruz.
Hey everybody. Welcome back to the podcast. I'm excited today to have author speaker and a well financial expert. Rachel Cruz. Rachel, thank you so much for being on the podcast today.
Rachel: Absolutely. Tony, thanks for having me on. I appreciate it.
Tony: So I'm really excited the first time I got to see you speak it was catalyst 2013.
Oh, wow.
Rachel: Oh, wow. Yep. I remember that one smart money. Smart kids.
Tony: I think my dad did you and your dad did it together. It was so good. And I immediately knew that you were gifted in this field and you guys talked about the rope and the ribbon, and I still remember the story and you delivered it perfectly.
Rachel: Well, good. Thank you. That was, I was, I was a little nervous before that one. I remember, I remember that that gig there catalyst is wonderful. Wonderful. But yeah, they were like, here, go, go. And I was like, oh my gosh.
Tony: So I, you know, I kind of wanted to start there. You've been doing this now for a long time, eight years.
In, in helping people with their financial disciplines, helping people learn more about themselves and their money. I'm curious. What what have you learned about yourself as a speaker and author in the last eight years? And if kind of a quick reflection?
Rachel: Oh yeah. Gosh, I mean, I think, I always think of the team.
Number one, having people around you that help you. Be better at your craft, I think is so important. People that kind of challenge you and show you good practices has been huge. Like if it was just me, I, I don't think I would be who I am today. Honestly. Like the team is so incredible. So I would say that I would say it's funny it, the fulfilling parts of my job, you know, it's kind of that outward facing public facing job that I have.
And so for me, The most fulfilled that I get is knowing that it's helping people. Like, I think a little bit of like the self I'm an Enneagram three. I don't know if you would know the Enneagram, but I'm like, yeah, I can, I can easily. Yeah, I can. I can easily in my not good part of myself, like love. The attention and all the things, you know, oh, this is so fun, you know, out there.
And you quickly realize like, all of that is pretty empty. Right. And so, but knowing on the back end of those books or those speaking gigs, like whatever it is that the audience is getting hope. And that's, that's honestly where I'm like, oh, being able to help people makes it, it makes everything so much richer.
Tony: Yeah. And I think what's crazy about the kind of work that you do and the kind of work even that I get to do on Sunday morning when I'm preaching to the church. Like, we never really know where it's going to go. Right? Like, you wouldn't know that the rope story that you told that day drastically kind of made me think about the way I parents and, you know, three kids later here we are.
Right. Like, and, and it's you never get to hear that. So on behalf of all of us, thank you for impacting.
Rachel: Oh, well, thank you. Thanks for that. It's it is, it's an honor. It's so fun. Such fun work now.
Tony: You've got this book out. It's been out for most of 2021, know yourself, know your money, and I love to read dedications.
I think you get to see a little bit of behind the scenes with the dedication and you dedicated this book to your husband. Winston. I was wondering if you could talk a little about how your relationship has formed in both being public and private people. And I mean, this is. And this is a very deep, personal book in a lot of ways.
And so I thought it was interesting that you dedicated it to him.
Rachel: Yeah. Winston is, is one of the people in my life. I feel like that pushes me on understanding myself more and he's done just so much work over the course of our marriage and having a husband that digs in and asks questions engages on an emotional level to ultimately I think.
Bring us both to the feet of Jesus to say, Hey, here's like the parts of us that are not good. Here are the parts that we can say, wow, that's a gifting that God's given me. How do I steward that? Well, I mean, all of that. And so having a spouse that is all about that is it's such a gift. It is such a gift.
So like Winston has done so much work in himself. And I feel like I get the benefit of that. Right. So it was always challenged me to dig in more and to say, okay, what, why do I do the things I do? You know, a lot of that journey writing this book is, was personal counseling or whether it was the Enneagram or like things that just really expose parts of you that you say, wow, that's why I do the things we do.
That's why my defense mechanism is this. This is, you know, why I cope this way. Like, you start to understand you as a person and it's very complex. And then you add the spiritual level on top of that, right? Yeah, there's just a lot there to unpack. And, and through that journey over those years was with Winston by my side and him challenging encouraging me and then came the book where I realized, wow, I could integrate this into my work so easily understanding why we handle money the way we do.
So that was kind of the progression of it. But yeah, he's definitely the top person in my life and in that role, which I'm so thankful, right? I'm like, I don't know all the men or women listening, but I'm like an American. I'm. I am like, I'm S we're not perfect by any means, but just so thankful for a man who is grounded, who steps up and, and leads and digs in, and all of that, I'm like just that engagement is such a gift, because I know that that can be rare and suffers.
Tony: I've got a similar spouse, myself. My wife is just one of the most she's the rock of my life and, you know, and that cheerleader and, and all of those things. So as I read your dedication, I was like, man, I complete that resonates at a very deep level. I'm curious when you talk to young couples about. You know, finances and getting started and, and even, you know, some of this identifying yourself, how do you tell them to dive into like what are the first steps into developing that personal theology around money and stuff?
Rachel: Yeah, well with young couples, I think like when you're early marriage, which granted you can do this at any stage of marriage, but it's beneficial. The earlier you do it is kind of setting that, that value system foundation to say, okay, what are the things that we're going to value? And those things may change over time.
Right? You could have kids and realize, oh wow, we valued this, but now we're going to value something else. Like it can change. But I think being on the same page, With your values, just meeting, Hey, we are going to be intentional to serve people in this capacity in this way. And that's how our money is going to be reflected.
Or we have a value of doing a date night a week, you know, I mean, it can be as tangible as these things, but having a value system on which you live your life and the money is simply a tool. To help you do those things. And what I find is couples can easily still run in their own separate lanes and kind of do the things that they want to do.
And granted, when you're married, you don't lose your, your self, right. God created you as an individual, unique, gifted, all of that. So you don't lose that. When you're married, you come together in this really sacred partnership. And when couples still run on those individual lanes fully I think it on a tactical level, whether it's just, Hey, we're still gonna have separate checking accounts.
We're not going to talk about money. It's your money, my money, you know, that tactical decision then. It's a reflection of your values. And so you have to kind of start at that value system. So that's what I would encourage couples to do is sit down and be like, what are your values? And this season of life, what does it look like?
And what do you guys want to do? Because out of that comes your money decisions.
Tony: Yeah, it's so important to decide that you're going to be on the same team when it comes to all of this kind of stuff. And decide how, and when we're going to spend our money. I, you know, you, you talk a little bit in this book about the different I don't want classrooms is the word that we use.
I was, when I was thinking about it, it sounds a little bit like, oh man, it's almost like my baggage. It feels like baggage. Sometimes that I bring into the marriage when it comes to, to how we look at money. Can you talk a little about that idea about classrooms and kind of what you saw and how you learned about that?
Rachel: Yes. Well, you know, growing up any good therapist or counselor usually says, yeah, your, your, your, your childhood home was your life classroom. It's where you learned everything about life, the good things, the bad things. And then when you go and you're an adult, You decide, okay. What lessons from that classroom do I want to mirror and take with me and what lessons do I wish I could unlearn?
Because I think we all have those students so that you know, that classroom. Yes. They all ha shapes, you know who you are. And so when I was writing the book, I really wanted to kind of dig into that part because that's such a, that sets such a foundation to your money, decisions and choices and habits and tendencies.
You know, was your childhood and what your parents or parents did with money. And so when I was writing the manuscript, I realized, okay, money's communicated in two ways. It's communicated verbally, but it's also communicated emotionally. And it was like, this quadrant came up in my head. I was like, oh God, you gave me a graph.
Thank you. Like, this makes so much sense. It creates these quadrants depending on the emotional state of your household and the verbal state of your household with them. So that classroom one is what I call it and I call this the anxious money classrooms. So this is the quadrants that, you know, that box in the quadrant and the top left for those of you listening, if you can kind of imagine, and it's where it's verbally closed.
And emotionally stressed. So money was not talked about, but you felt the tension. So maybe, you know, toward the end of the month, when bills were due or you're grocery shopping with your mom and you just felt this tension, you know, you just feel it, it's not sad, but you feel it. Classroom two is where it's verbally open, but emotionally stressed.
So this is the unstable money classroom. This is lots of conflicts. Fighting it is talked about, but it isn't a stress filled environment. Classroom three is the unaware money classroom. And this is the classroom where it's verbally closed, but emotionally calm. So it wasn't talked about, but it wasn't a big deal.
So I always say your head was probably kind of in the sands with money growing up. If you were in this classroom and you were the one that left at 18 or 21, and you really. Oh, well, I know nothing about money. It was never talked about, but it wasn't a big deal. You know, classroom four is yeah. Is the definitely the healthiest money classroom classroom for which is the secure money classroom.
And this is where it's verbally open and emotionally calm. So in this classroom you know, you could have $10, you could have 10 million, like the amount of money doesn't matter, but it's the idea that there was at least a plan around money. You knew what was going on and it was talked about it. Wasn't this taboo subject, you know, your parents engaged you in conversations around money, whether it was tactical, like here's what a mutual fund is to even emotional about contentment and generosity.
Right? So like, it was that kind of. There was just this level of stability when it came to money and you're in your classroom growing up. So, so kind of pinpointing those, I think for the readers. And again, I dig into this more detailed in the book, but to be able to say here's the pros and cons of each of these classrooms.
And then if you are married, okay here, what is your spouse? How did they grow? Because it just shows you a lot. Okay. Either you mirror a lot of what your parents did growing up. I find that or people do the exact opposite. So they'll say, yeah, my parents fought about money all the time. So now I'm avoiding talking about it.
It's not worth it. It's not worth the fights. I'll just do my own thing. You do your own thing. You know, you start to see that you go to the opposite extreme. So, so knowing that foundation and it doesn't, you know, you can a hundred percent. Change your money habits, change your views, all of that, you know, just because you grew up in one classroom does not mean that that's gonna be your life forever more.
You know, you, you still can make decisions as an adult today with your money habits, but it does give you a picture kind of an insight to maybe why you do the things you do with it.
Tony: I'm I'm curious out of all the people that you interact with on a regular basis, how many, you know, rough percentage wise, do you think grew up in that secure quadrant?
Like, is, is it normal? It doesn't feel very normal from my perspective, but I'm, I'm curious, you probably deal with a lot more people than I do when it comes to this topic. What do you think.
Rachel: Yeah, I would say it's definitely the least, I mean, it's funny, even if I'm doing interviews like this, you know, someone will say, oh wow.
A classroom too. That was me. You know, people will self select in as I'm talking through it. And it's on a, yeah, not a lot of classroom fours. A lot of classroom threes. Yeah. You know that I've heard. And a lot of ones like it, it just wasn't talked about some, some twos for sure. And if it was a two, it was a visceral like, oh yeah, I grew up into but a lot of ones and threes was just means parents, you know, just didn't engage in conversations with their kids.
It just, it wasn't talking about good or bad. It just wasn't, it wasn't a.
Tony: It's interesting as I'm processing in real time. Like my parents were divorced when I was fairly young and I think I had two different classrooms in each home. Right. Like, so, yeah.
Rachel: Absolutely. And what's fascinating too, is talking if you have siblings, some siblings could put themselves in a different classroom than you do in the same home.
Right. Because that's a person like, as, you know, as an individual, you could take on an experience that really affected you. That kind of made you say, God, I always felt like classroom. And, you know, maybe your, your sibling is like, oh no, I never heard that stuff. That's interesting. It really, it's kind of your life experience.
So it's fascinating, but I think I love going back to that and I do, I encourage people and I say this in the book, cause it's. You know, when you do that kind of exercise to go back, I always tell people it's not there to bash your parents. It's not just a moment of like, oh, Hey, I was just the worst of the worst, you know, sitting there to bash them.
It's also, they're not to defend them because I do hear a lot. People say that, well, they didn't, I'm like you don't have to defend them. Just tell the truth. Like if you just tell the truth about your experience, which then it just allow, it allows that door to be open for possible healing, possible forgiveness, but also to say, okay, that, that's how I experienced my mom with me.
And maybe that's why I feel like I feel guilty, guilt and shame. Every time I spend something full price, you know, like that was, I, I laugh about my mom and the books. Cause my mom was like, and still is to this day. Tony still is to this day. Just, I don't recall her cheap, but she definitely needs, she needs something on sale.
She needs like leftover. She's always has leftovers in her fridge handing us food. Like, you know, she's just more of that kind of a little bit more of that scarcity mindset. And so, and I'm a spender like that stuff. I'm like, no. So I had to get over that hump, especially when I was first married. I was like, if it's in the budget, we had the money.
By the third summer shirt, even though it's not on the 50%. I'm okay. But you, do you train yourself from what you've seen in your experiences?
Tony: Do you what, what impact do you see COVID having on all of this? Right? Like it it feels like this has become I, I don't want to say oppressive, but certainly a magnifying glass.
That any coping mechanisms we had prior to COVID and this was the same thing I experienced in the army. Right? It was when we, when you got deployed it, it just blew up all of your coping mechanisms. Are you seeing that in the financial world, is it changing people's classrooms? How do we interpret all of that through our finances?
Rachel: Yeah, I think COVID, gosh, turned everything upside down. It feels like I'm on the financial side. I think a lot of people that felt secure suddenly that foundation was shaken. Those that thought they were okay. It kind of, it was exposed that they weren't, you know Warren buffet always says, you can tell who's skinny dipping with a tide.
So, you know, like, oh gosh, we thought we were fine. Cause I was getting a paycheck. And then at the moment I'm furlough. I can't keep it up, you know? And so I think it exposed a lot. And, and this is not like a, this probably sound, I want this to sound grace filled, but also it kind of proves the point of the biblical principles teaching for over 25 years at Ramsey.
In the house of the wise are stores of choice, food and oil, a foolish man, devours, all he has, the borrower is slave to the lender, know the state of your fleet. I mean, like you can go through just even the book of Proverbs and I'm like, and it works. You know what I mean? Like, it's one of the things, if you follow God's ways of handling money, it works.
And so that was a little bit of that validation for me to say, guys, if you haven't done it, start now. And say, okay, you know, I am going to get out of debt. I am actually going to live on a plan and be intentional. I am going to learn to be generous because my whole life isn't just about me, me, me, like, like these things are so, so key.
And so I think what the pandemic did is it scared a lot of people. And there's a lot of sad, a lot of fear and sadness in that realm. But, but, but my encouragement to people is that, that there can see that you can still change like you, if you were one of those that were living paycheck to paycheck, This could be your wake-up call.
I talk about fear in the book. I have a whole section on it, but chip Dodd, I love what he says in his book, voice of the heart. He said that that fear can actually be a gift that it's your body's response, that you are in need of something. Now, when it gets to be paralyzing fear or anxiety, like that's not good.
We don't want to go there, but that initial fear, what is it telling you? And so I think that, I think that the pandemic struck a lot of fear in people. And I think that initial response people need to listen to, to say, am I going to be okay? If I lose a paycheck and for 78% of Americans that are living paycheck to paycheck, no.
So what does that mean? That means changing your habits and putting yourself in a better position financially is going to help. And so, so yeah, so all of that, I think encompass 2020, so, and what's crazy too. It, this book, I wrote it before the pandemic script before my third baby was here in October of 19.
So I was done and I didn't want to do any edits or anything during my maternity leave. And I come out of material, leave March of 2020 to start doing edits. And we go into this pandemic. So as I'm doing my edits, Oh, gosh, I'm preaching to myself. It was an interesting perspective.
Tony: I bet. I bet if somebody is listening and they're like, oh, you're, you're absolutely reading my mail right now.
Right. You're speaking to me. W what do you think is the, what do you think the first step is for moving to a more secure place or, or taking that first step towards reclaiming some of that control around their finances?
Rachel: Yeah, I think the first thing. There's a little bit more of an emotional response than a tactical, but I would say you first have to understand that if you want to change what your present situation is, what you're changing to, you have to have hope that it's better because change is hard.
So it's not going to be this easy, like, oh, I would love to have an emergency fund in the bank and I'd love to have no debts. Great. Well, the change in order to get there, it's going to be difficult because you're doing something new, right. When you're doing anything new, you're going to feel friction and it's going to be difficult.
Cause it's uncomfortable. Nobody likes change. I have, I have three little kids now and so I took out all the car seats there day of the van and I was cleaning it up and I switched to the car seats on accident. So we were loading up the next day. My three-year old nephew. She was like, mom, I'm in the wrong note.
This is not my seat. This is Charles to see, this is not my seat. I was like, no, it's your seat. I just put on the other side of the van and she, you would've thought I was like, I dunno, I've ran over her dog or something. Like, I mean, like, I think I was like the most horrible person because she threw the biggest fit.
And I was like, man, even a three-year-old hates change. Cause she's sitting in a different side of the van, right. It's not uncomfortable. It's not familiar. So I think that first step is to realize you're going to feel tension. But push through it being uncomfortable, cause it's going to be uncomfortable.
And then number two, I would say on a tactical side, I would say you need to know where you're at. So, so laying out all of your numbers, know how much. You have, if you're investing into a 401k, know how much is going out, look at a budget know, look back on your past three months of living and add up how much have you spent on groceries per month and average it out.
Like, just get a lay of the land as you're starting out, because those numbers are really gonna help you put a budget together and start paying off. I love that.
Tony: I love that. Okay. I have one more question for you, but before we do that, I know that my listeners are going to want to find you on the interwebs, where is the best place to learn all about you and to get connected and all that kind of.
Rachel: Yes, you can go to Rachel cruz.com. Everything's on there. I have a show, the Rachel Cruze show and podcasts and YouTube. And I'm all over social, social media. So wherever it is, you're on there, then we'll leave sometimes, unfortunately.
Tony: Hey, amen. Okay. Last question. I always love to ask. Yeah, me too. Last question I always love to ask people is an advice question.
And I'd like to take you back to the day before you're going on the catalyst stage in 2013. And if you could go back and talk to that younger version of Rachel, what is the one piece of advice that you would give her?
Rachel: Oh, wow.
I would say, you're going to survive that 13 minutes. You're on stage. You're going up. You're going to make it
number two. I would say I mean, it's a, it's a little I dunno, it could sound cliche, but it's just true. Just trust that what God has planned for you is good. Like it's not easy. There's going to be some rough patches in life and marriage and marriage and parenting all of it, but it, but it is so good.
And all of these things, the blessings, and, you know, the mountaintops, the valleys is, is there to refine you more and more to be like Christ. And he does that in a beautiful way. If you're intentional,
Tony: Oh, that's so good. That'll preach any day of the week.
Rachel: Yeah. But yeah, that's so funny that, that poor girl I know that's going to be okay.
Tony: Rachel, thank you so much for taking the time today and being so generous with your willingness to come on and talk about it.
And I'm, I'm super excited to see what God continues to do through you and your minister.
Rachel: No. Thank you, Tony. Thanks for having me on. It was such an honor. I appreciate it.
Tony: I told you guys what a great conversation with Rachel. I love her heart. I love the way that she thinks about it. It's such a, a realistic and life giving approach to how to deal with your money.
Again, you can pick up her resource, know yourself, know your money, anywhere books are sold. Also follow her on social. Let her know that you heard her here on the reclamation podcast. If you haven't done it yet, don't forget. Hit that subscribe button, leave a rating review on iTunes and be sure to share this episode with a friend.
Those are the three things that you can do every single week to help us get connected to more and more people and spread the kingdom of God. Thank you guys so much for helping me do what I love to do. And remember, if you want to follow Jesus, you must be willing to move.
