#185: Scott LaPierre: Your Marriage God's Way
Pastor Scott LaPierre wants to help you be married!
In this conversation we talk about God's way for marriage, and how to make it happen in your life.
Links:
https://www.scottlapierre.org/
https://www.instagram.com/pastorwcc/
https://www.facebook.com/PastorWCC
https://www.spiritandtruth.life/
EP. 185
Tony: [00:00:00] Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the reclamation podcast, where our goal is to help you reclaim good practices for following Jesus. If we haven't met yet, my name is Tony and I'm your host today's episode 180 5 at the podcast where I sit down with other speaker and pastor Scott LaPierre. Scott is such a good guy when it comes to how to live.
God's way we talk about biblical ideas for marriage. We talk about what it means to have as many kids as he does. We talk about all the things and ways that he's grown in the faith. I think you're really gonna enjoy this conversation. And if you do do me a favor hit that subscribe button we're ever listen to a podcast, leaving us a rating or review on iTunes or Spotify. And the highest compliment you can give us, share this episode with a friend. I'm so thankful to be on this journey with you. And now without any further ado, here's my [00:01:00] conversation with Scott LaPierre.
Hey everybody. Welcome back to the podcast. I'm excited today to have author, pastor and speaker Scott LaPierre.
Scott, thank you so much for being here today. Yeah.
Scott: Thanks for having me on Tony. I've been looking forward to this time with you and your listeners.
Tony: So I like to start with kind of a macro question right out of the gate. You do a lot of different things. You're, you're probably, I mean, we just talked a little bit before recording.
You're in the middle of leading VBS. You're you're in the local church, you're in the, a national influencer. How would you describe the call that God has put on your life?
Scott: Hmm.
Heavy heavy. It feels like a lot. Yeah. That's and you know, we got nine kids and I'm, I'm busy pastoring. I could pastor, you know, from the moment I get up to the moment I go to bed and the inbox would still be full trying to make time for my wife and my kids. I'm just in the middle of the season, trying to figure out what to say yes to and what to say no to [00:02:00] God's opening doors with speaking and books.
So that's what I mean by heavy. Just trying to make sure I'm doing God's best. I heard someone said one time. I thought this was really good that the enemy of God's best is good. Good is the enemy of best and frequently in the Christian life. It's not about saying no to what's bad. Although we have to say no to what's bad.
It's about saying no to what's good. So that you can say yes to what's better than that, or what is God's best, right. You you're serving the Lord and there's so many different needs. I mean, I there's this woman that emailed me today. And, you know, the reason I said, no, actually had more to do with, I don't think I can effectively counsel people from a distance.
It I've tried it before and it doesn't work particularly well. Sure. This woman, I mean, she thought her marriage was falling apart and she's asking me to counsel her and everything and you know, I can get a couple requests like that. I had another request a few days ago like that, and I'll try to point people to the local church.
I think that's the best solution for them find elders. But yeah, it just feels heavy. It feels like trying to navigate through everything and keep everything in balance.
Tony: Now I, I would [00:03:00] be remiss. I was gonna bring it up, but you, you went there already. You dropped the fact that you have nine kids and somebody was running on the treadmill.
When you said that and they
Scott: fell off well, you know what? They're surprised and I'm, I'll be honest. Tony, I'm surprised to have nine kids.
Tony: I look around and I'm like, well, Scott, I could give you a really good book that talks a little about loud and how marriage influences this. If you want. .
Scott: Yeah, well, you know, I was, I look around and I saw this picture some months back of this family and I was like, man, they got a bunch of kids and it was seven kids.
And then it hit me. I had more kids than that, you know, I didn't come, I didn't come from a big family. My wife didn't come from a big family. I had one brother. She has two siblings and we just got married and fell convicted to let God give us what he wanted to give. and he's, he could have given us three or four.
He is given us nine. We don't know if he'll give us. And this is not a commentary on what other people, you know, should or shouldn't do. And I, I admire my wife. She, she sacrifices more than I do in this department cuz we homeschool and she has stuck with this conviction. She turned [00:04:00] 40. We don't know if there'll be, God will give us more.
You know, if he does we'll we'll be thankful for them.
Tony: praise
Scott: that's praise the Lord.
Tony: What what's the one thing? I I'm sure everywhere you go, people want to comment on
Scott: how many kids you have every interview that the something just like what occurred with you just now someone says, right? Yeah. Well,
Tony: so, so what, help me see something that I, I couldn't normally see because I I'm in the cheap seat, so to speak.
What, what's the unexpected blessing? That comes from nine kids that most people just don't even like, you couldn't know unless, you
Scott: know. Hmm. Okay. Yeah. One of the things that I did not expect was to have children that seemed like friends friends, I feel like I'm enjoying as they're getting older.
My, my oldest is 14 and I'm developing a good relationship with her and, and my [00:05:00] son that feels. As much like a friendship. I mean, I'm, I'm not one of those parents that is gonna argue and say, Hey, we're, don't be a parent, be a friend to your kid. I mean, you you're the parent you're in charge. They need to recognize authority.
The fifth commandment honor, your parents have a long life as a result, hopefully. So I'm not, I'm not arguing against that. I'm just saying that I've been blessed by conversations and you know, to be clear, there's a lot of, there's a lot of hardship and S. Associated with it too. It's it's definitely not easy.
And it's exhausting. But God's word says they're a blessing and it's kind of like many things in life. You know, you look at his word and you choose, like, when we talk about walking by faith, I think sometimes people think that means you go and serve in a. Third world country is a missionary, but walk walking by faith means you look at what God's word says, and you say, I'm gonna choose to believe that whether it makes sense or whether I like it.
And God's word, it says children are in Psalm 1 27 and, and other they're always presented positively or as a blessing in scripture. And one of the worst things, people experience in the old Testament was the, a closed womb or the inability to have children. [00:06:00] And so we choose to, to say, Hey, these children are, are blessing.
Sometimes it seems like they're almost trying to convince you that they're not, but you . So
Tony: it's a little bit of work for yeah.
Scott: And one of the other blessings, just seeing how God's provided, you know, I was an elementary school teacher and now I'm a pastor and we've always been single income. So we've, we've never been rolling outta the money and God's always, always blessed us and taking care of us.
I think that's why harvest house. The, after my marriage book, the year holding, they. Was my finance book came out and I think harvest house said, Hey, if this guy can take her nine kids on a single income pastor salary, he must know something about finances. So we'll have him publish something for us.
Tony: oh, that's great.
Let me, and let me just give you a word of encouragement. As that 14 year old begins to start driving game changer. I, my 16 year old, I have a 16 year old, a 12 year old and a 10 year old, two boys and a princess. And In the last three months, my 16 year old started driving. And aside from the increase in the insurance [00:07:00] premium, it has been an absolute game changer.
I mean, just positive, positively, so positive. Oh, wonderful. Because here's what happens. Hey, Hey Connor, take your sister to tumbling, right? Hey con, take your brother. Drop him off at the field. Would Jim we'll pick him up? You know, I mean, it would be nice if gas prices weren't $5 a gallon, but My wife and I find ourselves stealing away more moments together because of it.
So, so now sometimes if we all meet up for dinner or something her and I will drive home together with no kids in
Scott: the car. Thank you. That's encouraging. Thanks for pat. And I think that says something about your, your child, that there's some trust there and you've done a good job raising a responsible young adult.
So
Tony: we steal Kroger shell saying all the time that trust is given and mistrust is earned. Hmm. And so until he gives us a reason to mistrust him, we end up giving him the benefit of the doubt. I would say, I would say 90% of the time we give him the benefit of the doubt, but You know, and, and I think that this kind of goes in [00:08:00] alignment with what this latest resource is about, which is marriage God's way.
Cuz it feels different than what the culture tells us. Right. That, that the book that you have written is very I, I don't wanna say traditional, cuz there's so much connotation with that, but I would say is it's an Orthodox view of marriage. That's more in alignment with church history. How do you know when it's time to write a book one?
And, and how did you know that it was time to write a book
Scott: on marriage? Good. Yeah. I, I can back up a little bit to answer that I started pastoring and I didn't really have any idea what marriages looked like in the church. Cause people, people come to church and they're smiling. You know, they look shiny and everything's good in their lives.
Then you become a pastor and you start hearing from people and you get this insight into people's relationships and you see, wow, there's a lot of struggle and marriages there and I've, I've got a pretty conservative church and I think I've got all these, I mature families and I'm finding out that there's a lot of hurting relationships.
And so I'm generally a verse by verse exposition guy, you know, choose the book of the Bible and go through [00:09:00] it. And. but I thought, Hey, I need to deal with marriage here because there's an amount of counseling I'm doing. And I want to help strengthen these relationships in my church. And so I just decided to, to preach on marriage and it's kind of a running joke, cause it was gonna be the marriage month and it turned on into like the marriage year, because I just, you kind of feel out your congregation.
I mean, you've done enough ministry to know that you, you wanna be led by the Lord, but at the same time, you're gonna sense. You hope he's. You know, direct you through your congregation as well. And so I'm kind of feeling people out and they seem to still be hungering for this topic. And I was really enjoying the studying and the sermons myself, and just being challenged as a husband.
So I'm, you know, week after week. And then this month after month I came, came out with these You know, marriage sermons. And, and just to let you know, or let your listeners know you would already know this, but there's kind of two camps of preachers. You have the guys that have like notes that are very abbreviated.
And then you have guys that write their sermons out super thoroughly. And I'm in that second camp of like super thorough manuscripted
Tony: sermons. Yeah. So you're doing [00:10:00] like 1500 words a week.
Scott: I'm doing like 4,000 words per week. Polished, refined. Yeah. Yeah. And actually it was more than that back then. I think I've, I've trimmed it up some, and so my wife's watching these sermons cuz we go over 'em together each week, you know, they're we had a family in the church that sends kids over to watch our kids so that we have this time together, go, go over the sermon.
I, I pour a ton into every message and Katie says, Hey, these. Every sermon is like a love gift to our church, you know, and I poured my heart into it. So back up some years ago, when I'm preaching on marriage and my wife's already been noticing how much I put into my sermons and telling me that I need to write a book from these sermons, cuz you kind of step down from the pulpit and that's the end of this.
End of this message that you just poured your heart into. Sure. And so she, but I was so busy at the time, Tony, that I just kind of kept putting her off and then I finished this marriage series and she was like, look, you know, this is it. This is what you need. This needs to be your first book. And you've, you've put so much into this.
And these sermons will be a, would, would be wonderful to share with, you know, share with the [00:11:00] world let's say or share with whoever reads the book. And so you, you probably don't know this, but what you're holding. Is the republished version. I self-published a marriage book. It was called marriage God's way.
And it did surprisingly by God's grace. Well kind of shocked me for a self-published book and then harvest house took interest and they said, Hey, we'd act, we'd like to sign you. We'd like to. Sign you to contract. We want you to publish some stuff for us, and we wanna republish your marriage book as your marriage God's way.
So that's the republished version from harvest house. And I wasn't even really looking for that. Cause I was, I thought the book was doing pretty well, so, so that was what was behind it. My wife's encouragement. And Genesis two 18, you know, it's not good for man to be alone. I'll make him the helper. And that's one way our wives help us.
And, and Katie helped me cuz I'm, I'm kind of a, I'm not a very visionary guy. I'm not creative. I can do the same thing week after week, just come to my office, do my sermon and counseling and thinking of writing a book like super attractive and she just kept and now I'm really thankful. I. I mean, that's why I probably wouldn't be here talking to you, you know, and [00:12:00] I'm thankful for this new friendship and I wouldn't be here with you if not for.
So the number of things that have developed as a result of that encouragement for my wife is pretty fantastic.
Tony: I love hearing love stories. Can you share how you and Katie
Scott: met? Yeah, we grew up together in Northern California. So we've known each other. Most of our lives. We didn't date in high school.
Neither of us were Christians. In fact, one time we went out and she was with. On a date, but she was with my friend. I was with her friend and I could, I could have saved myself a lot of heartache. And I, I think Katie would say the same if we'd, you know, I, I kind of joke we should have gotten married when we were in seventh grade together or something like that, you know?
And so we, we became Christians. In our, in our twenties and then started kind of reconnected, cuz we lo lost a little track of each other and it was like, you became a Christian, oh, you became a Christian. And then we were just super thrilled to find out what the Lord had done in the other person's life.
And I kind of had this list of essentials for any of the. You know, your listeners, weren't married, [00:13:00] I'd say, Hey, you need to, if you don't wanna be guided by your emotions, you know, which is what causes many problems. You wanna be guided guided by your list of essentials. My essentials were like, I'm gonna be a pastor.
I need a pastor's wife. I I'm gonna, we wanna, I want a homeschool. I need a woman that wants to homeschool, you know? and there's a lot of women that didn't, I wanna let God plan our family or give us as many kids as he wants. And there's a bunch of women that didn't, make that didn't like that, you know, they kind of hear the homeschooling or pastor's wife, and they're like, Hey, you know, you seem like a nice guy, but see you later.
And they don't want anything else to do with me. And then I meet Katie and it's like, she's going along with all this. And we got engaged like in a month or something. And I mean, we had some history from growing up together, but yeah, she's a, that's awesome. She's a fantastic woman. So thanks for asking about.
Tony: Yeah. One of the things that I love in that idea of having a list of essentials is that, is that it takes, I, it takes out the most dangerous person in the equation, which is
Scott: me. Well, you nailed that very well said.
Tony: and [00:14:00] and one of the things I say a lot is that that your feelings are real, but the narrative around them may not
Scott: be.
And, and how many people we talk to, I'll be doing marriage conferences and women come up to me. Mm-hmm I do. I do an amount of them throughout the year. My elders graciously give me weekends to do that. I think they recognize God's given me this ministry and I really love doing marriage conferences and I'll be there in.
It's frequently, a woman comes up and says, Hey, I'm listening to you. Talk about men being spiritual leaders. I put a big emphasis on that and they'll say, you know, my husband won't pray with me. He won't read the word with me and you know, what can I do about it? And honestly, Tony, the Bible tells us how to avoid messes, but it doesn't always give us instruction to get out of messes we've made.
And if you've married, if you've married non-spiritual man, you might be married. To an unspiritual man for good. Yeah. And I can't, there's a woman comes and she thinks maybe in five minutes, I'm gonna be able to tell her how to make her unspiritual
Tony: long, dedicated prayer is the only answer I got. Yeah.
Scott: And it's like, What am I gonna, basically she was guided by her feelings is my whole point.
I'm agreeing [00:15:00] with what you're saying. Yeah, this is, she looked at him and she was controlled by feelings and emotions. And, and didn't look objectively at whether he was a spiritual man or not, and now she's gonna be spending her life with him. So
Tony: now I'm interested to get your opinion on this, because I, I, if there's one drum that I beat all the time, it's that The most important thing you can do for your marriage is pray with each other and over each other.
And like, I, I won't do a wedding unless people commit to it. Like in my, in my ministry time. I just think it's just that important that if you're not gonna pray together and mostly it's outta selfishness because my marriage almost fell apart and a counselor gave that word to me. And I was a pastor at the time, but I wasn't doing it.
And I, it saved my marriage. It's just so hard to stay mad at someone who you have to go before God at every night and say, protect her head. Protect your heart. I I'm curious one thoughts on, on praying together as a couple. Sorry about that mini sermon. No, it's fine. And two. And [00:16:00] two is what's the single most important thing that you recommend to couples?
I'd love to hear it.
Scott: Yeah. I'm, I'm glad for that sermon. It challenged me cuz we're praying as a family and I'm when you said that, I thought, you know, I'm not praying enough for my wife. We, we have our evening prayer time. Everyone comes together, you know, all the we're around all the kids up and this is how we conclude our, our evenings.
But I'm, I'm probably not. Praying enough, one on one with my wife, but a along the lines of what you're saying is I families or couples need to gather around God's word mm-hmm . I, I push that more than I push almost anything else. And I'll tell people, cuz I'm, I'm convinced of this. If you'll have a Christ-centered home, which is to say a, a home that's gathered around God's word is prayerful, is reading the word together.
Then I think a lot of issues are gonna have a way of working themselves out. So people come, they say, Hey, how do I fix this? How do I fix that? I almost always move from that. H they're talking horizontally, they're looking at problems in the relationship with their spouse or their children. Those are all horizontal things.
And I pretty quickly try to take people to the vertical. And I say, Hey, if we can strengthen this vertical with Christ, I [00:17:00] think a lot of these horizontal issues have a way of working themselves out. And so I. I tell people I stress at a marriage conferences. We need to be, families need to be gathered around the word and much of this responsibility to do so rest on a father or husband's shoulders.
And a lot of time men come to me and, you know, I kind of notice this Tony and I don't, I'm gonna, we project ourselves in others. So cuz you're comfortable doing this. You, you are a speaker. You can be in front of people and. You're so you'll be comfortable doing things and assume other men are too. But what I noticed Tony was there's a lot of men that are coming to me and they're saying I'm, I'm terrified to read the word with my family.
I'm what if I don't know what to say? I, what if I pray and I fumble over the words or what if my wife or my kids ask me a question? I can't answer, you know, and. And so when men ask me or they tell me, Hey, I don't know how to read the word with my family. I say, Hey, if you can read, you can read the word with your family, cuz it doesn't have to be a whole lot more than, you know, choose a book.
Preferably when you have more familiarity with you, don't have to be an expert and start at chapter one, verse one, read a verse or have a kid [00:18:00] read a verse or go around the room, you know, reading a verse, talk about it. There's no formula for it. And then let God's word work in your wife's life in your life, your children's lives, let it wash over and sanctify and cleanse your family.
Mm-hmm for us, you know, our oldest is 14 down to like nine months. So this is not, this doesn't is not the most orderly. There's some chaos here. I'm having trouble keeping kids sitting up it's later. It could be later there's you've got a whole baseball team in your defense. Yeah. So it's like. You know, I don't want into how the pic, the picture of all these kids just sitting perfectly, Hey dad, keep going.
You know, it's, it's not quite like that. But I'm convinced that if, if we're pointing our kids this way and trying to do this, then God is gonna hopefully honor that. And so, and then the wife plays a really important part. Cause I'll tell wise who don't realize this. Your husband is probably terrified to pray with you and read the word with you and he needs your encouragement.
If, if he, like, there was a, I was counseling this one couple, and, and this woman was sharing that she really wanted her husband kinda like I was saying a [00:19:00] minute ago to be a spiritual leader. Mm-hmm, , that's the most common complaint I hear from women. And so I tell this guy privately, your wife wants you to be a spiritual leader.
She wants you to pray and read the word with her. And I think that's great. And I think if you do, it's really gonna improve things. So he comes back like a couple weeks later. And I could tell something was wrong. And I said, what? And I said, what happened? You know? And he said, well, I started reading the word with my family, like you said, but I'm never gonna do it again.
And I said, why? And he said, because everything, I said, my wife criticized me. Every single thing I said, she questioned me. She had to second guess all my interpretations of every verse. And, and basically if a husband feels like he's going to be challenged by every single thing he says, then that's gonna be a husband.
That's not gonna open the word with his family. And so that's why a marriage conference. I say that there's a real responsibility. A woman has to help her husband be a spiritual leader in the home by providing the encouragement and support that he needs. And I I'd even say, even to your listeners, you know, if there's.
If there's a [00:20:00] woman who knows her, husband's listening to this or listening to a Christian podcast, then, you know, thank him, praise him, say, Hey, I'm thank you for being a husband that listens to Tony and invests in his marriage or invest in his spiritual life. There's a lot of other things you could watch or listen to right now, but I believe that you're trying to grow in Christ.
And so I'll tell women in my church, I say, Hey, if you're. On Sunday and your husband's sitting next to you, you know, put your hand on his leg and look him in the eyes and thank him for being a golly man that brings you to church because there's a lot of women who don't, who don't have that. Don't take it for granted that your husband worships with you and brings his family to church.
And, and so women do play a large part in, in helping a husband be a spiritual leader in the home.
Tony: Hey, do, do you think. Let me ask this in a broader way, cuz I, I don't wanna provide a leading question here. I have lots of thoughts on this, but I'm really curious to hear yours. What do you think led to the D The deemphasis on roles in, in marriage, cuz somewhere along the way, like it became and, [00:21:00] and listen, I, I, my wife is, is 10 times stronger than me in a lot of areas of our marriage.
And yet I still understand that there's a role for me to play as the spiritual leader of our household. And that, I mean, that doesn't mean that doesn't mean boss, right? Like it, it just means spiritual leader of our household. And so I, I always feel like my job is to set the direction. And the tone mm-hmm and my wife is a phenomenal executor mm-hmm and she does great things there.
What, what happened to the, the roles in, in marriage and where, where did they
Scott: go? Yeah, well, in Genesis three, you know, at the fall, we, our minds go to them, eating the fruit. But God pointed out something else he said, because you heated or avoid obeyed the voice of your wife. That was a criticism of Adam.
There had been a reversal of the roles where Adam stopped being the head or the leader and Eve took over and, and, and then Adam submitted her. So there was fault for both of them. There was that reversal where Adam, Adam didn't lead and he submitted [00:22:00] to his wife and you know, this, there could be a whole other discussion about submission and what it is and what it isn't.
And what it means for a man to be a leader. And you hinted at it a little bit. It doesn't mean to be domineering, Ephesians 5 25. Love your wives. As Christ loves the church, you know, be to your wife. What Christ is to the church. He was a servant. Sure. He was sacrificial. It was, he, he says, the son of man did not come to serve or to be served, but to serve.
And so that's a big part of being a, a leader in the home is serving our whys and our children. But with that, I would say at the fall there was a temptation then be when we received the flesh for men to be passive. And abdicate their roles and there is a potential for women to control or dominate.
And we've been fighting that for 6,000 years. Yeah. So when someone says, when, when did male Chauvin, because the other, we, we have these ditches, right? Tony, I we're always striving to avoid ditches. And one of the ditches for men is being too passive and the other ditch is male chauvinism. Being too domineering and controlling.
[00:23:00] And so without the fall, men would've led still, cuz headship was in place prior to the fall headship wasn't part of the curse. It wasn't instituted by God like to punish. And if you it's important to understand that, cuz then you recognize the headship and submission. It's part of God's healthy design for marriage and not something that's a result of the curse and, and we see headship and submission.
You back up even further, the premier example of headship and submission is within the triune nature of God. Sure. Where God, the son says I did not come to do my will, but to do the will of him who sent me or I, or submit to the will of my father, he's like the premier, the Jesus Christ is the premier picture of submission to a head, you know?
Yeah. And that's why, when we talk about submission, it's not an issue of inferiority because if it was, that would mean that Jesus was. Inferior to his father, but we know that they were equal. So submission and headship doesn't mean inequality. It just simply means differences regarding roles and responsibilities.
But anyway, so there was that attack [00:24:00] in Genesis three, that we've been fighting. All these debt, all these millenniums. But really feminism when it is, you know, whether you wanna look back to the forties or something, that's kind of a time when we just really embraced it and said, we're not gonna expect men to be leaders.
There's some churches that don't expect men to lead. And there are much of the world doesn't expect men to lead. And so. That's really what we've been trying to resist and in recognizing the, the roles, male and female, and the responsibilities that go with them. But we've drifted so far from God's word.
Then now we say, we used to say, men and women are identical regarding their roles and responsibilities. And then we slid and we said, you know, men can marry men, women can marry women, and now we've slid further. And we say, a man can become a woman and a woman can become a man. And that's an incredibly far deviation, you know, from God's word, we need to continue to hold to what scripture says and recognize that bound up.
In male and female are very [00:25:00] distinct roles and responsibilities for us to strive to observe. And I talk about that extensively, you know, in my, in my book. Hey guys, just
Tony: pausing this conversation with Scott to remind you that the reclamation podcast is part of the spirit and truth podcast network. We're a 5 0 1 C three dedicated to walking alongside the local church at, with equipping and awakening them in areas of disciple making evangelism and the holy spirit.
If you wanna learn more or get connected. Check us out spirit and truth.life, that spirit and truth.life.
Scott: Now let's finish
Tony: up this conversation with Scott. Yeah. And that, and that's not a punishment that's in fact, a gift, right? That it I'm glad that in the roles, in the roles, we get the fullness of life with Christ as Christ intended it.
And when we slip away from that role, There's consequences, right? I'm I mean, am I
Scott: I'm with you a thousand percent? I mean, if people say, Hey, how do I have a healthy, joyful relationship marriage? I say, do your very best God is the author of marriage. He created [00:26:00] it. He knows what provides joy, happiness, blessing.
You know, Tony people come to me at times and they say, Hey, can you pray? I mean, we got a young woman in the church that has cancer, or we've got people that wanna have a child and they come and they ask me to pray and I don't know. Whether God is gonna answer this prayer. So I have to pray differently than I can pray for marriage, cuz with marriage, I can pray that marriage is a gift and a blessing, cuz God's word tells us that that's what he wants marriage to be.
Right. And so when people come and they say, Hey, my marriage is struggling. I don't pray. Like I'm praying for cancer. Because I don't know if, how God will answer that cancer prayer, but I do know he wants marriages to be strong and healthy and joyful. So then I pray with him and I say, Hey, God wants, it's not a blessing right now.
You're not experiencing joy, but I know that's what God does want for you. But for you to have it, you need to strive to obey what he has written in his word and apply, embrace the commands that he has given whether you like him or not. That's how we have the fullness of joy and peace that he offer. [00:27:00]
Tony: Yeah.
I love that. My friend of mine, Carlos Whitaker, who was on the podcast, he says, we have to pray the promise, not the problem. Right. And, and the promise is the marriage is the fullness of life with Christ mm-hmm . And oftentimes we're praying the problem when we need to pray the, I mean, God wants to bless marriages.
This isn't, it's not a secret. He's not hiding cards. Right. And, and I want to get into the word that you use in the book, and it talks about a man should agape his wife. And I've never heard it said that way. And I'm hoping you might be able to unpack that. Yeah. I mean, I know, I think I know what you mean, but
Scott: draw it out for us.
Yeah. Good. So, you know, we we're familiar with English, right. And we miss some of the bizarre aspects of the English language, cuz it's all we know. But if you think about it for a second, I'm gonna use the exact same word. When I say I love popcorn. Or I love wrestling or I love my wife or I love my parents or I love my kids now.
Hopefully I love my wife differently than I love popcorn. Right. Or hopefully I love, and we, we recognize, we love, we love our parents differently than we love our kids [00:28:00] than we might love our neighbor or our friends or chocolate. But we all have this, just one word. Well, in the other, in other languages, like let's just deal with the Bible, the Greek, the new testaments written in Greek.
They had multiple words for love, Aeros related to our word ERO. There's nothing wrong with it, but it's a strictly selfish love because it's based on physical appearance, you know, and someone said, one time before I got, they said, Hey, when you get married or remember two things that can, are gonna can affect your marriage gravity and time.
And they just meant like . And so, and so arrows, arrows changes with gravity and. You know, UMO like Philadelphia, the brother, the city of brotherly love Philo. That's a friendship love like the, the love you have for a good friend store gay is familial love. The natural love like parents would have for their children.
These are all different Greek words for, for love, but then agape that's the premier 11 scripture, which is a sacrificial unconditional. [00:29:00] It's it's only used a couple times in the Bible and it's the love when, if he John three 16 for God, so loved the world. It's an unconditional, sacrificial love that he has.
And I, and I think one thing I'd probably say about this is we have this very unbiblical view of love. Love to us is this feeling or emotion that comes and goes, it's not a choice. Where we don't think it's a choice, but, but if you read first cor the 13, the love chapter, it's all verbs or actions. It's not emotions or feelings because it's what you do.
It's how you choose to behave towards someone. Love is patient kind, all those, all those things. Right? And, but the, the world acts like, you know, you kind of get shoot by this little baby with a bow and you can't help it. And then suddenly you fall in love with someone. And that allows people, a guy, for example, to come home one day, And he has not guarded his heart and he's developed feelings for some woman at work and what happens.
He comes home and he says, you know, I feel like I've fallen in love. We like to use, we say, I've fallen in love. I fell in love with this woman at work. And we act [00:30:00] like it's an accident. We couldn't control it. Or someone says, you know, I don't feel like I love my spouse anymore. And that's a totally unbiblical view because they're acting like love.
Isn't a choice. It's something they don't have any control over, but biblically, we choose whether to love or not. Based on our beha. That's why we can be told to love our enemies. Right? I mean, think about that. Jesus said, love your enemy. Yeah. How can he say that? Except you can choose whether to do it cuz you don't have good positive emotions or feelings for your enemy.
And so agape is an unconditional sacrificial love that loves even when it's not reciprocated. And that's why there's no, if it doesn't say husbands love your wives. If. They respect you. Or if they, you know, recognize your headship in the home or treat you the way you wanna be treated, it's, it's the same love God has for us that was willing to sacrifice and love us even while we were still sinners.
Tony: Yeah. One, one of One of the things that I heard a long time ago when I was at a marriage retreat was that people don't fall in and out of love. They fall in and out of commitment.
Scott: That's [00:31:00] what really well said. Yeah.
Tony: And, and, and then I like to take it a step further and say, it's, it's not even a commitment to the marriage.
It's a commitment to the disciplines of being married. Mm-hmm right, because it's not, nobody wakes up. I mean, I've done hundreds of counselings, probably like you have. And one of the things that I've realized is nobody wakes up on a random Tuesday. I'm like, man, I don't think I love my wife anymore.
Mm-hmm no, it's a, it's a slow, awful bleed. Yep. And. I I'm curious you, you've got a chapter in the book on protecting your marriage. There's somebody listening right now. Who's bleeding and they know it. They know it because they they've lost some of the, the joy in their marriage. They've lost the connection, their business partners, you know, they're not intimate.
H how do we. How do we stop the bleeding and how do we protect us from bleeding
Scott: in the future? Mm-hmm good. So one of the things we talked about earlier that we both said was got us for our marriages and, and we can people come into marriage counseling [00:32:00] and they're, you're, they're bleeding. Like you said, you know, they don't even wanna see this person, say nothing about sleep them in bed at night and to tell them, you know, God doesn't want this.
He wants more for you. He is for a better, healthier marriage. First second to. Cause people to embrace a biblical view of love. So when someone says, well, you know, I don't feel like I love my spouse anymore to say, well, that's not really biblical. What's biblical is you've chosen not to love your spouse anymore, because love is a choice and you can choose to love your wife, even if you don't feel like it.
And so to, and then to say a, a marriage is something that. Feelings generally follow actions in men, in many areas of life feelings, follow actions. And so if you have a couple that doesn't feel a certain way toward each other, You've got to start redirecting their actions toward each other. And when those actions change often the feelings and emotions follow.
But one of the most common things that I'll ask people, I'll begin marriage conferences with [00:33:00] this is I'll say, why do you treat your spouse the way that you do? And I'll give people a moment to think about it. And then I'll say you actually treat your spouse the way you do because of your relationship with Christ.
Your marriage is a reflection of your relationship with Christ. and that's kind of a paradigm shift for people cuz sometimes people can think, well, I, you know, for lack of a better way to say I'm a good Christian. Yeah. But I'm not, I'm not the best husband. Well, not really because the way you are as a husband, you are that way because of the way you are as a Christian they're they can't be compartmentalized.
And what I mean by that is if a husband loves Christ, he's gonna love his wife. because if you want to love Christ, he's, there's no more important relationship physically or earthly speaking than your relationship with your spouse. And so if you really love Christ, you're gonna love your wife. And if a wife really.
Wants to submit to Christ or recognize hi him in her relationship, then she's gonna respect her husband and she's gonna recognize hi his headship. And so, you know, you'll be [00:34:00] talking to a couple in counseling that just are really upset with each other. And I'll tell a husband, he'll read what Ephesians 5 25 says.
And he'll say, you know, I don't, I don't wanna love my wife. I'm upset with her. She doesn't deserve it. And I'm not gonna argue with them cuz she is a, she's a sinful person. I'm not gonna try to talk him outta that. I'll say, you know what? She doesn't deserve it, or she's not worthy of it, you're saying, but who is worthy, who does deserve your love?
Christ does. So think about what Christ has done for you. That's what it means to have a gospel centered or gospel fueled relationship. And a wife says, I can't, I can't stand my husband. He doesn't deserve to be respected. He doesn't deserve my submission. And I, again, I won't argue her out out of that, but I'll say, you know what?
But who is worthy of your obedience? Christ is. And so instead of thinking about doing this for your husband, think about doing this for Christ because of what he's done for you. You're not really ultimately serving your husband. You're ultimately serving, serving Christ.
Tony: That's good. That's real good. And, and again, [00:35:00] right, if the, the marriage, the idea of marriage, it's not I think part of the problem is we've created an we've, turned it into an earthly.
Contract instead of a, a heavenly covenant, right. Mm-hmm like, like we we've shifted the whole idea that, that we can get out of this. Mm-hmm when, when, I mean, I, I just have always been of the opinion that the moment you allow yourself an out, you're gonna take it. Mm-hmm and so. When you take that off the table, well, then you have no choice, but to love or else the next a hundred years are really gonna suck.
Scott: Yeah. I mean, I, I maybe like two to four weddings per year is probably what I do. And I think at every single one of them, at the very beginning, I make the same point to people to remind them that they're entering this covenant. With their spouse, but more importantly, they're entering into a covenant with God himself, that he is the third silent partner in this relationship.
And that it is not just about their spouse or even [00:36:00] it's secondarily about their spouse. It is primarily, you know, about the Lord. And so that's why it says, God hates divorce. Let no man separate what God has joined together. And so even if people feel legitimized to divorce because of their spouse, I invite them to think about their relationship with the Lord and whether he would.
Them to do something like that.
Tony: This is so good. I, I could talk about this stuff all day. I I'm anxious to hear some of your thoughts on we, you know, we've already talked about two things, but what are a couple more things that couples can do to strengthen their marriage and discipline? So we we've talked about prayer, obviously.
We've talked about being God centered, you know, in the word at what other, what other go-to pieces of. Just, you know, maybe this is a, a life Perver perversion per for someone. Yeah. Man, that did not come out. Right. and that's
Scott: a . Yeah. You know? Well, we I've, I've kind of actually wanted an opportunity cuz we kind of hinted at it a little bit.
We've talked about yeah. You know, headships submission, husbands loving [00:37:00] their wives and we've kind of left it lingering out there. And so maybe. You know, take a moment. Talk, talk about wives, cuz I really think if you want a healthy relationship and, and I get, submission's kind of this cringeworthy word and, but I think anyone that's intellectually honest with scripture recognizes that as much as it's the primary command for husbands deliver their wives, the corresponding command is for wives to submit to their husbands.
You know, what does that mean and what doesn't it mean? And I I'll just back up a little bit and I'll kind of invite all your listeners to think about every organization or structure. In life recognizes the need for headship and submission. And what I mean by that is you look in organization, they don't have two presidents.
You look at a sports team, they don't have two head coaches. You know, you go on a plane, they don't have two head pilots. There's always president vice president pilot, co-pilot you go to it, operated on, they don't have two head surgeons you know, head coach, assistant coach. And so we see the need for headship and submission and all these other areas of life.
But people want to deny that. In marriage, but God in his wisdom has said, Hey, we, we need this. We need this in relationships. As [00:38:00] much as we need it in all these other organizations or structures. So what does it mean? Well, a husband who's foolish. Doesn't listen to his wife, a husband who's foolish. Doesn't he minimizes his wife's thoughts and counsel, but a wise husband recognizes that, you know, second only to like the word of God and the holy spirit, God is going to speak to him through his wife.
I mean, if I got a major decision, there's nobody that I'm gonna talk to before Katie there's nobody's. I love the elders I serve with, but there's, Katie is the main voice, you know, in my life, but let's say Katie and I have talked at length about something and we've had some major decisions to make in our lives recently.
And if I feel like we should go left and she feels like we should go, right. What happens when you've talked at length? And you've reached this impasse. Well, that's why submission is in place. It isn't in place so that a man's wife can become a slave to him or something it's in place. So that when a disagreement is reached, the relationship can go forward.
Because when a husband and wife have talked at length and they can't [00:39:00] decide what to do, you know, do you, is it flip a coin or, you know, paper says there's no, God says what you do. Is the husband becomes the decision maker at that point. And the wife strives to support her husband's decision so that the relationship can go forward.
And I've had women say to me, well, you know, I would submit to my husband if I agreed with him. And when a wife tells me that, where she's really telling me is she doesn't understand submission. because submission is entirely in place for when a wife doesn't agree with her husband. If she agreed with them, you know, it's like my kids, when I tell my kids, Hey, go outside and play.
They don't have to submit to me. They wanna go outside and play. But when I say, you know, time to clean your room or do your homework, that's when submission is needed. And so submission is entirely in place for when a wife doesn't agree with her husband, but God wants the, a decision to be made. And he allows the husband to be that decision maker.
Now, for me personally, when Katie. Who's got a very strong personality. I don't wanna give the impression that I think Katie, you know, is a perfect wife, but she's a, she's a neat, godly woman. And she'll look at me and we'll talk and she'll say, this is what I [00:40:00] think I've given you my thoughts, but I trust you and I'm gonna support whatever you decide.
And I'm telling you to, that's like a crushing weight. I mean, that's like. Sobering. It's like I could, whatever decision I make, my wife is gonna get behind me. I could mess up my family. I could, I could, you know, lose a job or who, I mean, I'm not really in the danger of losing a job, but I'm just kind of a, you know, making the point that it's very sobering.
It causes you to wanna pray and read the word. But I think many women, they don't let that weight settle on their husband's shoulders. They don't put themselves behind their husband where they feel the need to become prayerful. And being the word to ensure the right decision is made. And so what I would say to, to the husbands out there is trust, you know, Genesis two 18.
It says, God made you a helper. Some men, some women cringe at that, but honestly, it's actually more of a commentary on a man than it is on a woman. And what I mean by that is when God said it's not good for him to be alone, I'll make him a helper. He was saying, [00:41:00] man needs. It was a commentary. It's almost like God looked down and said, Hey, Tony and Scott, man, these guys are gonna struggle.
We better do something. I better do something for them or they're not gonna make it, you know? And so it's a commentary on a man's inadequacy or insufficiency without his wife. And so a husband should recognize that God has given him this wonderful woman. To counsel him and help him. But then the wife should recognize that after she's given her thoughts on counsel, hopefully you come to agree.
I mean, by God's grace, Katie, and I, you know, frequently agree with each other, but there are those times where we disagree and that's when she'll say. You know, you gotta make this decision. You gotta do what's best for our family. And the, and she'll tell me, she'll say, and it's not on, it's not my responsibility.
It doesn't, I can sleep tonight because it's, you're the one who has to decide this and it's not gonna whatever happens, you know, it's on you kind of thing. I mean, and that's like, you know, where you, well, well, have to become a spiritual guy, you know? And so I would tell wise, Put yourself behind your husband, let [00:42:00] him feel that mantle of leadership and responsibility settle on him.
You know, don't, don't put him in the driver's seat and then keep reaching over and grabbing the steering wheel or put him in front of the saddle and keep reaching around to, to grab the reins, really make your husband feel like, you know, he's, God's called him to be the leader and he has to lead cuz you're not gonna do it.
And when women do that, cuz there's other, I think there's a lot of men, they don't lead because they don't think their wives are gonna follow and it's not worth the effort and the conflict. And, and so
Tony: yes, and, and, and there's a lot of wounding, right? Generational sin plays into this on a pretty high level, I think, where it becomes a, a, a glass ceiling to living into the fullness of the covenant of marriage, because.
The wounds, whether they be you know, cumulative or, or acute trauma, they, it all plays a role in this kind of in, in our, in our marital dynamics. I, I always [00:43:00] do a genogram with my couples where we draw out where they learn how to be a couple from. Because it's such an important part of understanding, like, Hey, I'm I know that I'm bringing all my, my family's sins into this marriage and she's bringing her family sins into this marriage.
And we've all got sins. No, one's exempt from it, but. We're doing
Scott: it together. And I get that Tony. I mean, I don't wanna sound insensitive to the woman who has been mistreated or abused whether, and I don't mean just physically, I mean maybe mentally, emotionally. Sure, sure. Yeah. Maybe by her father and or her husband and she comes into Christianity and she hears about submission and it just terrifies her, you know, but I, but I'll tell you one thing, Tony, in the years, I've been a pastor and in the years I've been doing the marriage conferences or had a marriage ministry.
Most women are not complaining to me. That the Bible commands them to submit the most common complaint I hear is I wish my husband would lead you. You would almost think because submission gets such a bad, bad rap that women to be lined up at my door to come in and to complain to me about, [00:44:00] about submission and how Barbic and chauvinistic it is.
But I just don't hear that. I hear from women. I wish my husband would pray with me. I wish he'd read the word with me. I wish he would, you know, be a spiritual leader in our home. I wish I, I wanna look up to him. I want to be able to respect him because I do believe that God has put that in women's hearts.
So the most common criticism I hear or frustration is I want my husband to lead and he won't.
Tony: Yeah, that's so good. Oh man. I can talk about this stuff for days. So. I have one more question for you, but before I ask it I want to hear about where can we find all things, Scott, on the Innerwebs how can we get to one of your marriage retreats?
What, what are all the things? Yeah.
Scott: Thanks. Thanks Tony for that opportunity. So you'll probably put the link to my website in the show notes, Scott lucker.org. That's kind of the, you know, the center and all the spokes go out, you know, from there. So you can find my books, my social. Channels. I you, my YouTube channel has my conference messages and my [00:45:00] sermons and guest preaching and stuff like that.
But I love to put on marriage conferences as one of my joys. And so if any of your listeners wanna have one of my marriage conferences at their church, you know, get me in, get me in touch with their pastor. I get, get to do that a handful of times per year. And then they can find all my books on Amazon or Christian book.com or, or Barnes and Novo.
They. You know, available where books are sold. And, and the other thing is we talked about marriage a lot and I have a free gift for your listeners. It's called a seven biblical insights for marriage. And people can get that on my website. They should find it super easily. It's a, I think there'll be a popup or something.
And, and that's just a, it's a small read, you know, it's more of a pamphlet than a book and I just wanna bless and strengthen marriages. And I hope that it'd be a, a blessing to your, to your listeners.
Tony: This is so good. Okay. Last question. I always love to ask people. It's an advice question. I'm gonna ask you to give yourself one piece of advice, except I get to name the the season in your life when you
Scott: get to give it.
Okay. Interesting. Okay. Yeah, I, I wanna
Tony: take you [00:46:00] back to the day before you got married. The day before you got married. If you were to pull a chair up in front of that younger version of Scott and sit need any with him, look him in the eyes that, that young man full of life and vigor. What's the one piece of advice that you're giving him before he starts this brand new journey with this beautiful bride.
Scott: I would say that your wife is gonna. More help than you think it's gonna be hard taking care of a home and a bunch of kids, and she is gonna need a husband and father who's available to help. I mean, it's sad, you know, coming on 15, 16 years that I'm still still having to learn this stuff, but I'm listening to my wife telling me, you know, I need you available in the evenings to help with the kids.
There's nothing that makes me healthier mentally and emotionally than you taking care of the kids in the morning or helping with the kids at night. [00:47:00] And so I think. Women that are working hard as homemakers or, or homeschooling mothers or, or working hard, you know in the workplace first, Peter three seven, it says wives, wives are the weaker vessel.
I mean, there, people shouldn't cringe at that. I mean, you can read it a thousand times that says the same thing. I didn't, I didn't come up with that and it make that up. And we recognize that and appreciate that as husbands, by striving to, to help our wives. And so I that's, what I would tell myself is, Hey, you need to.
You need to be there to help your wife with the, with their kids and how much of a load is on her shoulders.
Tony: that's good. And, and what about you honest,
Scott: you got time to, after that? What would I tell myself? Yeah, just do the same scenario. Yeah, just the same season about to get married. And you shared earlier and I've appreciated your humility on your, on your show to let your listeners know, Hey, you know, I've had my struggles.
There's one time our marriage was, you know, the seams. It looks like it's coming apart at coming apart. And,
Tony: Oh, I'll tell you that. The biggest sins in my life [00:48:00] all became all were result of not having good disciplines. And so my coping mechanisms eventually became the cracks in my life. And so if I was gonna sit in front of that, And Karen and I'll celebrate 20 years this February, praise God.
Yeah, by God's grace and I, I would look at myself and I would say find disciplines that keep you from going outta bounds. Hmm. And, and integrate them as soon as possible. And of, and of course, you know, praying with my spouse, would've been the first one. We didn't do that until after that difficult season and I was already in ministry at that point, and it was a, I was hot mess express and, and, you know, I wasn't leading well, so she was a hot mess express too.
And I, I, you know, she would say that. So I, I always believe that good disciplines. free us for joyful obedience and just the joy that comes with life.
Scott: Well, so, no, I, I like that a lot. I, I tell my church, Hey, when is the [00:49:00] train free? Is the train free when it's going off the rails crashing into a tree or down the mountain, or is the train free when it's guided by those rails and just, you know, that's, God's wear that's God's command that's those are the disciplines.
You mentioned those boundaries. Yeah. That's where we have real freedom. So I, I appreciate your, your humility and sharing that Tony. Thank.
Tony: My podcast listeners. No, I love to say this. I gotta squeeze it in or else they'll be disappointed, which is my number one thing that I say all the time is if you aren't dedicated to your disciplines, you'll be destroyed by your distractions.
Scott: Hmm. Very good brother. Yeah. I mean, that's David right. Anyway. Okay. Nevermind. That's look, look, we gotta have another episode, man. You better? We should. We
Tony: should. Cause I, I wanted to talk to you about godly sex. And I have lots of thoughts about it. Inviting God into my sex life has changed everything okay.
In such positive ways. And I really want to talk to another human about it on this podcast, and I think you'd be perfect.
Scott: So I I'd enjoy that, man. Have me back on we'll talk, we'll talk intimacy. There's a whole book in the Bible dealing with that. That's I know. And I feel like kind of tab it's taboo in the, in the [00:50:00] church and I'm like, Hey, I tell people, come into counseling.
I'm like, look. I've heard it. We can talk about it. I'm not gonna, you know, turn red just let's. Yeah, that'd be good, brother. Let's do that.
Tony: Yeah. Set that up. So let's do that. Okay. Hey, the best way to make sure listeners that you don't miss that episode is to go ahead and hit that subscribe button wherever you listen to podcast.
Also go follow Scott, pick up that That free gift for you? Seven biblical insights. I think you're gonna love it, Scott. I appreciate your heart and your generosity so much such a good conversation today. Hey,
Scott: thanks Tony. Thanks for having me on the show. And I look forward to coming back, talking with you and your listeners.
Again. God bless even God bless them,
Tony: man. I love Scott's heart on marriage. I love the way he looks at things.
Scott: I think this was such a rich conversation
Tony: about relationships and I can't wait to have Scott back on to talk about biblical intimacy, a conversation that I think more of us need to. If you enjoyed the conversation day, do me a favor, go find Scott, let him know that you heard him on the reclamation podcast.
Thank him for being a guest and follow him on all the social medias order his book. [00:51:00] I think you really will enjoy it guys. I'm thankful
Scott: for each and every one of you to be a part of this community. If you wanna get connected to me the best way to do that's on Instagram at T mil. T w M I L T you can also
Tony: hit me up on the reclamation podcast.com.
Thankful for all of you. And remember guys, if you wanna follow Jesus,
Scott: you must be willing move.
