#92: Welded: Forming Racial Bonds that Last
Derrick and Jay are both incredible men of God who have come from different walks of life, and yet they have been welded together forever. In our conversation, we talk about what it means to hear from God, working together for the greater good, and the importance of unity.
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EP. 92 Jay and Derrick Full Transcripts
Tony: Hey everyone. Welcome back to the reclamation podcast, where our goal is to help you reclaim good practices. For faith and life. My name is Tony and today is episode 92 of the podcast. I get to sit down with authors and pastors, Derek Hawkins, and Jay Stewart and their new writing welded. They talk about forming racial bonds.
Last, I love the way they talk about unity through the eyes of God, what that looks like in scripture and how how their stories. And their witness come together in such an ordained way. I love their hearts, the disciple makers at their very core something I'm very passionate about as well. I think you're going to love this conversation and as you pick up their book, make sure that you read the foreword by a friend of the podcast.
Same Collyer just so much goodness happening this dialogue. As always one of the compliments that you can give us is by leaving our rating or review, especially on iTunes. Also do me a favor, share this episode with a friend, either share it on socials or Email, it's somebody texted to somebody, get the word out about what God is doing through this platform.
It really does make a huge difference as we continue to grow and see what God is going to do now without any further ado. Here's my conversation with Derek Hawkins and Jay Stewart. Hey everybody. Welcome back to the podcast. I'm excited to have Jay and Derek on guys. Thank you so much for being on the podcast today.
Jay: Man, thank you, Tony. What an honor to be with you, man.
Derrick: Totally. Thank you for having us miss such an honor to be doing podcast today. I can't wait to see what the Lord's going to do.
Tony: Well, so the first thing I have to ask so I, I wrote a book with a friend just like you guys have a, and welded is your book that has all about forming racial bonds that lasts.
And I can tell you that the hardest part about writing a book with my mentor was Was actually us having two completely separate voices. What was that experience like for you guys to put your thoughts together? Because you don't write the same way.
Derrick: Tell me, he boss me around the whole time. He just told me what I had to do.
It was amazing. It was amazing opportunity. Man, this man is so smart. When I tell you just his ability to hear from the Lord and just place things where they needed to be placed. This is my first time. So he really coached me through a lot of things, but just because of his wisdom and who he was, here's the thing we never wrote in the same room, which was just a God thing.
Tony: You guys always wrote separately.
Derrick: Did a work in it. And so it was amazing. We had an amazing, my first experience was an amazing first experience because of him.
Jay: Well it was, it was awesome and laborious and you know, people have no idea when you're talking about writing a book, just all that goes into it, but I'll, I'll just say this, Tony. I've never written under such an anointing in all my life. And it was clear, it was a narrative God wanted out. And as Derek mentioned, we were in different places writing.
And, and I would just say, Hey, let's write about this. You write about this. And it was crazy how the Holy spirit orchestrated. Everything that went down on the paper and how it all came together. And it was just constant. It was a constant reminder to us that the Lord was right smack dab in the middle of what was happening and what was being produced with the book welded.
So it was a great experience, man. I'm really thankful.
Tony: So one of the questions I love to ask people is how they hear from God. And you, and you talked about that anointing a little bit, Jay, and, and it's clear to me Derek and your journey and kind of how you narrate through this through the book that you guys both have done quite a bit of listening to God's word in your life.
So Derek, let me, let me start with you. How do you know when, when something is from God, like merging your. Your church, which you just became lead pastor of. Right. And, and becoming a part of a bigger church. How do you know that's from God and not from you know, fear or you know, the burrito you ate the night before?
Derrick: Right! I was thinking I've learned this from a lot of just whilst people that I've had from my grandmother's to Jane and some of the other influences just to steal. Myself away to be 100% sure that it's God, not just a good thing that God thinks. So some of those just praying and waiting and then filling that release when God, when God tells me, Hey, this is, this is my leading.
And so what I try to do is bathe everything in prayer and maple in the word of God, but then also. Yeah, my Ted self, a time to breathe and let the word, this kind of breathe over me and hear what the Lord is saying to me in that moment. So I don't make an emotional decision. So for me, it's always been that they're still in a way in prayer.
Always making sure that the word of God backs it up, but then also giving God an opportunity to just to breathe over me to the right over me, speak over me. And then from that to make the decision at this Ben Bay through prayer fasting in the word of God.
Tony: Oh, I love that. Jay. Jay, what about you? How do you hear from God?
Jay: The first thing I would say about that is that it flows out of intimacy. Paul talks about us being seated with him in heavenly places. And the picture I get is, you know, like sitting on the front porch with someone that you're really close to and just hanging out with them. And I think about when the disciples were in a room with Jesus and I believe it was John that just kind of leaned over onto his chest, you know, And one of my goals is that I've just pressed my ear to his chest.
So I feel and hear the heartbeat of God. And that can only happen through closeness, through intimacy. So I really try to guard my quiet time with the Lord, the times that I spend with him. And I don't do that because I'm a pastor. I do that because I'm a Christ follower. Because I want to have an intimacy with him.
And then Paul also talks about testing everything and clinging to that, which is good. And so, you know, when, when something comes, you know, like I feel like the spirit of God is saying something I don't, I don't usually just immediately act on that. I'll let that marinate a little bit. I'll take that back before the Lord to make sure it's not just me in the moment.
I just want to be spirit led, you know, walking in the spirit, you know, being the perfect dance partner. With the Holy spirit. So he's taking the lead and I'm just in rhythm with him.
Tony: Yeah. Has that always been something that you've done Jay, or is that gift of kind of like discernment or that intentional discernment has that been nurtured over the years?
Because one of the things that I'm always working on in my own life as I can be somewhat impulsive. Right. And so just like act, you know, like, and I'm like, Oh, this is going to be great. I'm just going to go do it. Why wouldn't I do this? How have you developed that in your life?
Jay: Well, I age brings wisdom and so I've got some years of experience and I'm a real ambitious person.
And I look back on my younger years and there were times Tony, I jumped out there without a lot of wisdom because I was ambitious or excited about something. And really didn't take the time to make sure it was a God thing and not just a good thing. But I think through time, I've learned to, you know, just slow down a little bit and make sure that I'm marching to his drum beat and not to my own drum beat.
And I, I think the best thing is just, you know, years of endeavoring to listen to his voice. I've always tried to do that, but I think I've nurtured that over time. And I've gotten better about that over time.
Tony: No, I love that. And, and one of the things that's clear is that you guys, in this journey of, of bringing your lives together, you, you did that very intentionally.
Derek, you kind of talk in this, in the, in the book about meeting Jay for the first time and the billboard and all of that. I was wondering if you might share a little bit of that journey of, of how you guys initially came together and how God kind of moved in. You. Through that process with, with our listeners, because I think it's I think oftentimes we Ms.
Little signs from God that could be an opportunity to grow. Right.
Derrick: And Tony, thank you for that. And thank you for reading a book. It means the world to us that you would do that. But actually I hadn't shared this on any other podcasts, but in college. And I told this to pastor dude, when I first met him that the lawyer.
That gave me a prophet at word, when I was in college that are gonna meet three influential people in my life. And tell me about my wife did tell me about a woman that I would meet in. They told me what a man that would lead me to what my destiny was, and it was going to be a white gentleman middle age, man.
And I wrote it down in my profit journal. So back when I was in college and so. As I began to do that one day, living in a small town, Salisbury, North Carolina, I came home from college. One summer, came home. I was playing basketball and I came home and then one summer I had a, a chance encounter with with the Lord through.
Divine intervention of my wife and all the husbands there. Amen.
So intervi my couch time on a Saturday morning and told me to get up off of it and take my daughter to get her head at his breast. And I took my daughter to get her hair done that morning and dreadfully, but. Not knowing that the lawyer was divinely setting me up, moving me from a position of comfort into what was next, you know, and I see this sign downtown Saulsbury and ironically, pastor Jay, it planted a Saulsbury location of the canal plus campus or the main campus of the refuse just right outside of Charlotte and just walking in distance.
I begin to see that sign and I was attracted to the sign. The letter is just that the excellence, the detail of the sign. But when I called it, didn't lead me to Solsbury led me just outside of Charlotte and the receptionist picked up the phone and connected me to the graphic designer at that time and winded up inviting me.
He invited me to just. One-on-one session who out of everything that's going on, it really speaks to the culture. That passage has a steel to the culture of the refugees that we value every human being. So they didn't look at me on the call and say, Hey, well, let me just put them on to the voicemail. No, they set up a meeting, met with me, write us out of our core Concourse areas.
That mugshot, where we have our coffee shop permissions. We sat there downloaded vision. And to me. He says this prophetically, I know this guy, he's like, you need to be pastor Jay. He's an apostolic father and there's something that you need from him. So he was keen to the sensitivity of the Holy spirit in that moment and invited me back.
To a service and banning leaps. She was preaching on revival. I'll never forget that. And the presence of God was so strong. I could feel it as I left out of the service. I never whipped so much in the service web, literally all the way in my car till my car. But before I did that, I met pastor Jay in the Concourse.
And if you know this about pastor Jay, anybody that knows this. He greets every person that disaster greet him in, in between services, which is uncommon for a mega pastor, you know, inventory services. He still does that to this day and he greets me, a black guy comes up to him and was like, Hey, you know, and then we exchange information.
And and I reach out to him. He's going out of town for about a month. He's going on sabbatical for a month. And we just intentionally, every month we would just connect and meet monthly and develop a relationship that became a mentorship that then from a mentorship turned into just bothering. And he began to just pour into me.
And that's that, that's not just my pastor, that's my spiritual father. And so much of who I am is because he's in my life. You know, wouldn't be where I'm at today.
Tony: Pastor, Jay, how do you decide? Cause I, I actually believe that, you know, as we talk about where their church is heading is that it's going to look like more spiritual sons and fathers.
Right. And, and, and daughters and mothers, like, I think that that's the call to get back to. And how, how do you decide. You're you're mega church pastors, super busy author. I'm sure. Opportunities to speak any chance you want. How do you decide? Yes, I, I think God is calling me to meet with Derek or, or how do you test what your boundaries are on, on the time that you have to give to, to raising up the next year?
Jay: Really telling me, I feel like the season of life that I'm in now. Is it, that is one of my primary responsibilities and privileges is pouring into the next generation. You know, the Bible says there are many teachers, but two fathers and I've recognized for the last number of years that there is an Apple Solich anointing on my life.
I don't say that with any, any sense of arrogance, it's just stewardship really of what God's. Put on me and what he's entrusted to me. And so it really is my heart. And so if somebody approaches me like, like pastor Derrick did that day and says, Hey, I want, I need coaching. I need mentoring or whatever, man.
I'm going to prioritize that. I'm going to make time for that. We set off in that year at the refuge. We're not trying to build a castle. We want to build the kingdom and I want to do anything I can to help set the next generation up for success. And to pour into them. And so a lot of my time now is spent coaching pastors and meeting with pastors and leaders and just pouring into them and, you know, taking almost four decades of ministry experience now and just making that available to them and pouring that into them.
I lead a coaching group of pastors every year. I don't charge a dime for that, and I'm not throwing shade on those who do, but God just said, You know, you just give it away, you know, you have freely received now freely give. And so anyway I just feel like it's a great honor to, to do that with, with pastors in that day, that was back in 2014.
When Derek approached me, my heart was there, man. It was what I wanted to do.
Tony: Let's talk a little about the merging of, of your guys's as ministries, kind of in alignment, pastor J H how did, how did you cause you, you talk a little bit about that. In the book and you met with a local Bishop, I believe.
And, and his, I think it was his wife, perhaps that whole process of, of joining that together. How did that come to you? And then, and then how did what, what moved you to, to lead your church and then to open the discussion, which. I mean, I, you know, I'm a pastor, right. So, so I know how kind of nerve wracking those.
That's that's a scary conversation. Hey, would you be interested in merging flocks? You know, like that's super scary.
Jay: Well it was an interesting story because pastor Derek and I started meeting him not long after we started meeting, he began to bring other leaders from the church that he was about to take over.
And then. The founding pastors began meeting with us and it was all for the purpose of them transitioning well of them transitioning out, handing the Baton over to pastor Derek, Kim, taking over the helm of the church. And there was never one thought of merging. And we met for about 18 months and there was this unbelievable relationship, very close.
Our hearts were knitted together by the Holy spirit, but in one of those meetings now, 18 months into it. I hear now we talked earlier about how do you know, you know, is it you, or is it always, I hear the voice of the Holy spirit speaking to me and saying this. Ask them. If they've ever had conversations about becoming a campus of the refuge.
Now, Tony, I'll be honest with you, man. I had the audacity in that moment to tell the Lord, I will not ask him that.
Can you imagine that?
Tony: Yes, I can't. I got, I have those conversations all the time. I'm not doing that. God, I'm not doing that.
Jay: I'm not going to do that. And here's why, because I did not want them to think I had an agenda. Yeah, and this would cause a really my agenda, my agenda. And I can say this with all purity of heart, my agenda was to help them get better.
And so I, that, that wrestle in my mind and spirit goes on for a few minutes where I'm going, I'm not going to ask him that. And the whole experience like ask them that, you know, and so finally I recanted to the Holy spirit and said, Okay. And I put it out there and ask them and they all started laughing and I'm like, what?
In the world? And they said, Oh, pastor, we talk about that all the time. And so it was kind of in that moment, we began to realize, boy, this is bigger than what any of us thought. And there's something unfolding here for the kingdom site. That's bigger than just. You know, having conversations about a guy taking over a church.
And so then our conversations began to shift somewhat and we started talking about, what could this look like? What's God doing? You know, when should we do this? And then God just began to unfold, you know, the timeline and the, you know, the steps and what we were to do. So it was a beautiful thing that was orchestrated totally by the Holy spirit.
Tony: Now pastor Derek, I'd be interested to hear from your point of view how did, how did God start nudging you and your team in that direction? And, and obviously what tremendous humility and wisdom that you must have in order to be, even be open to the idea? Because I mean, if I'm. Completely honest.
When I first stepped into the pastoral role, I was really excited about being a lead pastor versus when I was on staff at a, at a church as a discipleship pastor. Right. And that kind of, it felt like a kind of a Rite of passage. And, you know, there's a little bit of just my humanity in all of that. It sounds like God re you know, really equipped you for that.
I'd love to hear more.
Derrick: Yeah, Tony, man. I've always said this and not this. I live this out, man. My life really does not belong to me. It belongs and I want to live in my life out, poured out as a drink offer. And I really want my life to be an example of God being able to utilize it, being a conduit for what to do.
Was it easy? No, but I think pastor Jay talks about this, about just pulling into my family this morning, the same exact thing that obedience has a ripple effect. And so does disobedience or those moments in our lives where. Is it really about what God wants to do? If we say, Hey God, this is your plan.
And clearly it was the plan of God, look at what he's doing. So I just can't take credit, man. I just yielded to the leading of the Holy spirit is my father. He's my leader. You know, he's my Lord. And so I gave him complete control over my life. What is a title? When the kingdom of God is affected by decision-making a man title for anything.
I mean, it's more of my impact to the kingdom of God. And if I look back or if I'm bluntly, none of the things that I happen to in my life wouldn't have happened. If I hadn't had a yield to go to the way that he was leading me to go the way that seems right in a man, but the end leads to destruction. And I think that we all know that those paths though, The role might look broader, but it actually leads to destruction.
And here's the thing. We, I chose to go a different path. And was it challenging? Ongoing? Absolutely. It's like being married. You know, the first few years of marriage, I write about that in the book I left the two place open and like, Oh man, wonder where w what are we doing here? Let's get a divorce. No, we don't because of two paces left, open or challenges, or trying to figure out things.
I think it's the part of the process of what we're learned, but we do know this. We are better together. We know that, you know, we seen that and spread it all across the nations. We just got word. This is more than that. Even in the UK, people are talking about Willard man, and I'm just absolutely blown away by that.
The faithfulness that God would utilize. Someone like me to be a part of the greater narrative.
Tony: I love that. And one of the things that is, is clear is that, is that as you guys kind of married your ministries together that it was important to remain to have your individual identities and then to learn from each other.
And there's a phrase that I really touched my heart. The difference between tolerate and celebrate. And, and, and I wonder, I wonder if you could talk a little about as we kind of dive into some of the, you know, obviously there are racial and cultural differences here, how do you celebrate that versus just tolerate that and, and are there some examples from early on in the marriage that, or maybe even still today that are like, man, this is what it means to celebrate versus tolerate?
Jay: Well, maybe I can jump in first and respond to that. Pastor and say this at first of all, our goal is not uniformity. Our goal is unity. Uniformity says you've got to look just like me talk like me, act like me or vice versa. Unity says we recognize that. All of us bring to the table, different unique qualities and strengths and weaknesses, and that if we can learn to blend those, and that's the picture of covenant that goes all the way back to Genesis 15, is that if we recognize that those differences can make us better, then we can celebrate those and not just tolerate them prior to us.
Well, I've got to tolerate how you're different from me. But inside, I'm really thinking you should be just like me, but humility says I can learn from you. Humility says you have things that I need in my life and I can, I'll be the first to say I'm a much better man, because of Derek Hawkins. I'm a much better man.
And pastor because of our congregation in Greensboro, North Carolina. And I've learned so much, and it's easy for me to celebrate those differences because I recognize that they, they really make us better. We're all better because of the blending of our uniqueness, the blending of our differences, not so there's uniformity, but those, so that there's unity.
Derrick: Yeah. Wow, man. That was so good. Tony. And I think for me I've just learned so much from pastor Jay and what we brought together and what I've learned from him. And, and when you come in and let me, let me say this, let me preface this. The reason that I sought after passage after leadership is because I couldn't find it in the compounds of my own culture.
Oh, well, you know what I was looking for. Nobody gave to me, nobody offered to me. So when I went looking for, for, for, for mentorship and development, I wanted to develop, I knew the vision that I had in my heart, but I also knew that I needed structure. I needed insight on how to do it. I've seen African-American churches struggle.
I'll never talked about this other podcast. I've seen them struggle in their finances. I've seen them struggle with retention and growth and development. I seen the spirit of God move in a high place, but then the finances be bankrupt. I'll see, purchase that with. Have people mortgage their homes and they would die.
Never having a book is paid off. I've seen all of that stuff. And for me inside of my heart, I did not want to do that. I grew up around that and I wanted to do something different. And I knew that we just the program and the strategies, the vision, and pastor Jay brought me inside of his. How is leadership meetings and let me sit at the table to glean and just to learn, not knowing anything about me, but trusting the God, what God had given him in trust in the God inside of me, he sat me down at those tables and he allowed me to learn and to glean, and I was able to bring that stuff back to our campus and really gave me a vision and a strategy of how to build leaders.
Pastor Jay taught me how to be a pastor. I didn't know how to pour into people and pastor people, I didn't know my gifted and learning how to be patient and learning how to restructure and build out systems and set, you know, plans and goals. So all of that stuff is what I've learned. That has made the campus better, but it's made me a better pastor and a better leader because of what he showed me.
And a lot of that was a sending out, Hey, you take this paper, write those notes down. No, it was watching him lead. You know, I watched him lead. I watched them navigate. I watched him coach. I watched them poor. I watched people come in his office and he had every right to just rip them any and he just was calm.
I've watched them into a seasons where. I don't know how you're going to come out of this, but he never wavered. And that's what I believe. And, and that's what has made us a better campus and a better leadership team for me is because of that.
Tony: Oh, I, I love that. I th I think it speaks to the, the intimacy of the relationship that you guys have together to see all of that.
Hey, now, What what's the cultural makeup of your campuses now? Pastors are you guys still are you intermingled more you know, racially or what what's that look like? Or pastor Jay, would you mind speaking a little bit to that?
Jay: Yeah, sure. So the campus that that I pastor what we would call our central or main campus is Ethnically diverse and is more and more that way than ever before.
We're seeing a lot of diversity come through the doors. Especially, you know, pre COVID. I mean, now we're in 2021 pre COVID things were different, but even, even in the midst of that people that were so glad we had our doors open during COVID that continued to come in and then we bring our campuses together.
We try to intentionally do that on a, you know, as often as we can for some. Some, we did a racial reconciliation service back in 2020 in September of 2020. That was absolutely powerful. We do a big revival type event to start every year and all the campuses come together. And when we do, we, you know, we blend the worship teams and, you know, the leadership and all of that.
So it really it really helps us to celebrate the differences. And to, you know, to recognize, man, we're so much better when we're together.
Derrick: It's only an acid that, so when I first took over probably 1%, let's say probably lower than that. The percentage of our campus has grown in diversity of multi-ethnicity and multi-generational.
As our church has changed. And here's what I'll say to that. You can have a multi-cultural church, but not necessarily a multi ethnic church, which means that the ethnicities are appreciated one passage and makes the the statement about celebrating in that, just tolerating it. That's what we are, what we're doing.
Whether it's at our campus or the main campus of Kannapolis or Brazil, we're celebrating the differences that each campus brings that makes the DNA the same, but also makes identities different. When you look at the whole demographic of our campus, whether you stay in Greensboro, if you stay in Salzburg, if you stay in right outside of Charlotte, or if you're out of the country, wherever you are.
That you're going to see a multi-ethnic expression of body of Christ. And that's what I love about the refu. Just not just uniformity, but it is actually unity. And that unity is, Hey, this offers this, but it's still a part of the body and this offers this, but it's still a part of the body. And so I think when we look at multi-ethnic congregations or what multi-ethnic churches need to look like, I think God has given us the model.
That he wants to charge us to be represented from, and from that we're seeing this unity and not just uniformity, but we're coming together and these things take time fully coming to that expression of what God is saying. But I think that the Holy spirit is doing an amazing job of navigating us through certainties and what it looks like as we're coming together.
As he's knitting, this, this work together is really making sense more and more every day.
Tony: So I have a, I have a heart for that, and I, I deeply desire that in our church. And, and yet I'm also kind of in this weird reality that the, the context of where restoration church is, is 98% white and 2% other.
Right. And, and I think there are so many communities that are already. Segregated and, and, you know, a lot of that is historical. A lot of that is, is kind of. Just the way it's been played out. How do we encourage church leaders? How do we get churches like mine? How do we tell leaders to, to get back to that place where we're we're making, we're getting back into the fullness of the kingdom of God, the way he intended it.
I would be interested in here's some of the strategies that you guys have used in, in how you coach people through that process.
Derrick: Okay. Can I jump on this one first question, because I learned this from a good friend of mine. It's all about the demographic of where your church is located. Your city speaks a lot about the diversity of your community for pastor Jay and Charlotte location is right outside of Charlotte, which is extremely diverse for Greensboro. This about.
50, 50 white and black, but it still is very, very segregated, but here's the thing. And I had to get this real estate. I was talking to a pastor that wrote in compasses, a multi-ethnic church. He's like he says, what is the, what is the ratio of African-Americans as first as diversity in your community? I was like maybe whatever percentage it was at that time, he was like, it's unrealistic that feel that your church is going to be 50, 50.
When 70 to 80% around it is white or black, he says, so here's what you need to do. He says, think about the the amount of percentage that you can impact with the people in your demographic. And it says start there and let that be building blocks from there. So some of us won't, these things have not turned as being multiethnic, but it's just not the makeup of our cities and our communities.
I'm going to say Southern is going to be. SAC religious or entirely. It's not. Everybody's called. Right. It is not, everybody's called to do this. Like this has to be something that the Lord impresses. You have to be learned about the Holy spirit in what we're doing. So we didn't come up with thinking about this state.
This is where our cities are located. Greensboro is historic for the civil rights movement, with the Greensboro, for Charlotte, right? With Reverend Billy Graham, Dr. Billy Graham. And what he's done, even with Dr. King, it's the narrative of habit. Do I feel like it can spread to other churches? But surely the model has to come from a download of the Holy spirit.
Jay: Yeah. So good man. So good. And I just, I can't add a lot to that, but I will say this first of all people need the why question answered for them oftentimes, and I think as pastors and leaders and pastor Tony, I can tell man, you have such a heart for the agenda of heaven. And a heart for people. And I would say answer the why question for people.
You know, one of the things we have focused on is Psalm one 33, how good and pleasant it is when brothers dwell together in unity, it's like to do that flows. Down the beard of Aaron, the high priest down his robe and on the road, you know, it was inscribed the 12 tribes at this rule. So it didn't flow over one or two tribes that float over all 12, which I think is a picture of what the Holy spirit wants to do when he flows across all ethnicities.
And it says there, you know, that's where the Lord commands his blessing. And so if we want to walk and dwell and live in the blessings of God, then we need to learn to dwell together. In unity. And then the other thing is, you know, we have to help people to understand that if it was enough of a priority to Jesus, that he in John 17, one of the final things he would pray before going to the cross was for the unity of the brethren of the body of Christ.
Then it has to be a priority to us. We can't be flippant or casual about that. I think people in the body of Christ need to understand that. And then of course, you know, it leads us to the very practical application of that. It's like, okay, so what am I doing? You know, like in your case, 98%, 99% of our church are white or could be African-American what do we do about that?
And then we start becoming intentional. We look around us, we say, okay, what's right here within a five mile radius of my community. What's realist. Might not be realistic to be 50 50, but what's realistic for us. Then let's be intentional about that. You know, the loop pen, a parable that Jesus talks about of the Samaritan, the despised Samaritan that did not get along with Jews, but he crossed the road.
So then the question comes to mind, what do we do on purpose to cross the road? Like when it comes to this thing, Blending our churches, how can we cross the road? And then you start just laying that out in practical terms, weld across the road might mean that we do this or that. And that's some of the things that we've done here.
Tony: In, you mentioned one of them already that I was gonna follow up with the, the racial reconciliation service that you guys did in September. Could you, could you tell me a little bit about that and how the Holy spirit worked through that event? Cause I, I think that. I mean, anybody can, any church can do that.
Right. Any leader can do that. Any anybody can, can facilitate those kinds of meetings. How do you get started on that? What does that look like? And and, and how did your, how did your church deal with it?
Jay: First, I'll answer the last question personally. Loved it. They were fully on board. They recognized just the enormous tensions and division in our nation that still exists.
We've made great strides over the last four or five decades, but all of us know we can look around even in 2021 and see man, there's, there's still a lot of tension, a lot of division, a lot of angst. So we've still got a ways to go. So we just began by casting the vision for that and saying, you know, we want to, we want to be the, we want to live out the reality of Psalm one 33.
We want to be the answer to Jesus' prayer in John chapter 17. So let's come together and we might hit cleared our Bible. He said, look, we're not going to have another foot washing service master Derek. And I both stood up in front of our people and said, our feet are clean. We're not going to go through some motions, you know, and just now we're going to get together and we're going to do what they, we find that they did in acts chapter two.
We're going to worship together and we're going to pray together. That's what we did. That's the, that's where revival flowed out of and acts chapter two. So we, we worshiped together and we prayed together and we made sure that the worship was, you know, diverse. It represented who we are. Wasn't just one sound.
That what was on the platform was diverse. And we also took it an opportunity to honor our police officers because of what was going on with them. And we brought them up our chief of police and others, and we prayed over them and blessed them in that service.
Derrick: Right. Yeah, I, I think pastor J has been extremely intentional and here's what I would challenge any person that's going to listen to this podcast is that you don't want to just have a person on your team.
That's just because the African-American man, let me just put them on my team because they can. Definitely have an opposing spirit to what the narrative of your church is. It takes a commitment, a level of commitment, intentionality to make sure that you're wrapping everything that you do in prayer, but also getting this strap, that strategy from, from him and concerning what God wants to do in your church.
I've often told pass the day is easier for African-American well, white pastor to have African-American congregants than it is for a black person to have. White congregates. And that's just the facts. If you look at anything, statistically, you'll see it. So here's the thing. Yeah. Are there subtle changes that need to be made?
I was in prayer about this because I really been in prayer about some things. The Lord is downloaded with me for some strategy that has given me concerns and things that he's calling me to one of the best ways to unify people is him. And the Lord told me, he says, if you want to unify the styles of worship, utilize him.
Hmm, this was just, wow. I'm like, please like hymns, hymns are the universal bridge to culture. You know, if you start, if I start singing a hymn, it is well with my soul. I'm a white person, a black person, a Spanish person is going to know it as well with my soul and that about the writer. Guess what they're gonna care about?
It is, well, my soul, sometimes the things that we want to move apart away from other things that actually got caused us to be a bridge over as a little bit, speaking to me about it. What are some breeds builders like having conversations with people. That you have relationships with? I challenged our RDS students, that we have a discipleship school that we have at our church.
And I challenged all of our disciples, their students to look through your phone and tell me your last 10 people that you spoke to. How many of them are of a different race than you? Because if you're not leading by example, How can you make those individuals around you to leave our lives have to be uncomfortable.
You can't have it's out of your church and be uncomfortable and your life not be uncomfortable. Right. And that makes that we're not walking out this conviction that we say that we're called to, nobody should be in this position and be comfortable if you're comfortable. I'm challenging you that something isn't right.
You have to be uncomfortable. It is uncomfortable. I told him, I said this story before, when I first started listening to Kayla brother, I did not know what I got myself into. I'm like, is this
Mike Weaver? And I listened to his heart and I start hearing the songs and the annoyance, and then the worship that supersedes. My preference. And that is say, is it, is it really your preference that you prefer to hear this? Or is it, can you be, can you be fed in this thing? And so what I don't want us to do is to choose our preference over God's narrative.
And this has got, and it's not preference driven.
Tony: What I love about that, pastor Derek is that as it, as I was Instagram stalking, both of you pastors that that's a thing that we do, right. One of the things that I realized Eric is that, is that you've got pictures with you handing out the book to police officers and a prisoner.
Yeah. There's a tension there that is just makes me Man respect what God has called you to have. And this question is for both of you gentlemen, have you guys received pushback on, on this idea of being welded or is it, has it been mostly accepted by, by each of your communities?
Derrick: I think you pre faced pushback from anything that you do, that that's an advance in the kingdom, is that pushback look like it looks different in the context.
There's some militant minded individuals, white and black, right. We, we know that. So every person is not for unity. They're just not. So you're going to face pushback from those who might not understand it. And you know, when you make certain comments that. You know, Hey, if a black lives matters, I don't represent the organization.
Black lives matter. You know, I don't feel like that properly represents me as an African-American male. That's called to stand on the front lines to stand in the gap for my family, because I don't agree with what the organization represents. And leave it. Do I have to use the hashtag black lives matter?
Because I don't feel the need to utilize something because that's who I am. So there's been pushback. There's the other side of that too, for me being an African-American man, it feels like, Hey, we want to all see police officers. Just come dislike. Be fun. That's not, that's not my heart now. That is the hardest.
That's not the heart of every person because that after the same thing, there's some really, really great police officers. That's a really, really great preachers. And then there's some not so great preachers and not so great police officers. Here's what we want in the whole entire body of Christ. We won't, we won't, we won't people who carry out and live out integrous lives and we want them protecting us.
We want them preaching to us. We want them serving us. And it doesn't matter if they're black or white. That's just what we want. Like everybody would walk that on both sides of the spectrum.
Jay: Yeah. And I'll say, I think there's definitely been pushback on different levels. But we haven't focused on that.
Most people are grateful, excited about what God has done through us and listen for whatever reason, God chose us to write a better narratives to the nation. And most people are thankful for that because they recognize me and this is the way it ought to be. You know, even unbelievers. Many of them are like, man.
This is the way I don't want to be. I mean, we're just brothers, you know? But there's been pushback. I know pastor Derek had people early on that were like, Hey man, why couldn't you merge with a black pastor? Why you ain't got to merge with a white guy, you know? And then I've, I've gotten pushed back on certain things that I've said and stands that I've taken because of You know, the position that I hold and the influence that I carry and really want to rally support around African-Americans, you know, after the George Floyd and Armada Marbury, and those kinds of things happen to some of the statements that I made were not well received by some people, some white people, you know, that were upset about that.
But man, we haven't focused on that. Really? This is this is the agenda of heaven. Yeah, and we get we get to advance that, you know, Matthew 11, 12 forceful men who were advancing the kingdom of God.
Tony: I love that. I love that so much. Let me ask you this. If my listeners, a lot of them really love to pray.
And if there's something that they can pray for, as it pertains to what God is going to do with this book over the next year, as people listen and download what is it that they can pray for, for, for either you guys or, or for this, this writing or this, this movement? What, what specifically can they pray for?
Jay: Well, pastor Tony, thank you for asking that. I mean, we, we write very candidly and very transparently in the book about the struggles and about our heart and what we feel like God is doing, you know, in the church and in the nation. But I w I would say this man, let's all be in agreement. That all of us as the body of Christ, no matter what skin pigmentation we have, and all of us would be the fulfillment of the answer to the prayer that Jesus prayed in John chapter 17.
And that you know, we really do come together in unity, celebrating the differences that we have, you know, in the upper room in acts chapter two, I referenced earlier. There were there, there were multi ethnic people gathered together there and they just rallied around prayer. They rallied around, you know, listening to what the Lord was saying in that moment.
And out of that came on the earth, shaking revival, an outpouring of the Holy spirit. So I want to say let's, let's pray again. I really believe what's at stake is the greatest revival we've ever seen in America. I believe the enemy knows that he's trying everything he can to divide us, but unity is always a prerequisite for revival.
So man, it's 2021. Can we agree together? The greatest revival we've ever seen is coming that's what's at stake on this. So we've got to dwell together in unity. This is not about us just locking arms and singing kumbaya. This is about an outpouring of the Holy spirit in the earth. This was about souls being ushered into heaven.
This is about a move of God here in America that will heal our land and let's pray and believe that that's what's going to happen.
Tony: That'll preach. Come on. Anything to add to that pastor Derek?
Derrick: Well, I'll just, I'll say this one thing briefly when we stand before the Lord, if you're really like bow down in the presence of the Lord, you're really not concerned about the color. Of what's in front of you. You're just worried about the presence of the Lord, like being engulfed around you.
And for us, my challenge for people is just to really allow the presence of the Lord, engulf us in his presence and to remove the stigma of racism in our country and to uproot it out of us in my prayer for anybody that's reading the book will that here's my prayer. If there's any prejudice, racism, anything inside of your heart, when you read it black or white repent of it and allow the Lord to utilize you to stir revival.
In the city and the place that God is calling you into, whether it's a corporation, whether you have the culture of a football team, whether you are standing at the attendant line and in a BP, wherever you are all across this country. That you have the opportunity to be a revivalist and you don't have to be in the church to do it for prisoners.
That's why 21 prisons in South Carolina, 2000 prisoners were able to receive the book. And here's what happens. We're praying that some, one of those individuals would read it and spark revival in prison. That's what we want to see happen with this book.
Tony: Woo. I love it. And I love you guys. That's that's great stuff.
I know my listeners are gonna want to connect with you and learn more about your ministries, where where's the best place on the interwebs to keep up with, with both of you guys.
Jay: Well, first of all, they can go to Weldon book.com, but also for me, pastor Tony I'm on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook, and the handle, the social media handle for all three of those is the exact thing.
That's the at sign P S J Stewart, J a Y S T E w a R T. At P P S J Stewart.
Derrick: Love it. I am on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram, Derek Hawkins on Facebook. Derek. A Hawk is administries on Facebook. Also, you can follow me at Twitter at Derek D E R R I C K H w K N S on my Twitter and Instagram and lift your new.
On clubhouse, you can follow me on clubhouse as well. The thing is a brand new thing. That's a conversation role with influences all across the country, whether it's secular or whatever, Bishop Jakes has created a role. And it gives you that first kind of interpersonal. Opportunity to be in a room that you probably couldn't normally get in and to be in a discussion that's free with influential leaders all across the country.
So I've only been on club house for like two weeks it's invitation only. So you gotta get an invite just to get in the room and I'm gonna check it out.
Tony: Gentlemen, thank you so much for your generosity of time today. Thank you for your spirit and thank you for letting God work through you in this incredible writing. And I'm just praying for what God's going to continue to do through both of you.
Derrick: Thank you again for the honor to be with you.
Tony: What an incredible Conversation with Derek and Jay! I loved the dialogue around spiritual sons and daughters about the Holy Spirit's work, unsung heroes, the sound of revival.
So much richness and goodness in this conversation. Do me a favor. Go pick up a copy of their book. Well, well-bred follow them on socials. Thank them for being on the podcast. We loved it to share the love around here. Also don't forget a rating review goes a long way. And so to share on the podcast with a friend and as always, I am so thankful that I have the opportunity to do this with you guys.
It just means the world to me. I love the conversations, some of the conversations coming up, Winfield, Blevins, Kate Warman, Mark Clark, so much fun. And don't forget episode 100. Follow me on Instagram at TW Milt. We'll be doing some special stuff there. Thanks guys. Connect with you soon.
