#108: Mark Negley: Survive, Alive, Thrive
Mark Negley is a grief expert. His story is one full of loss and pain - but one that also ends in joy. No matter what you are facing, Mark wants his story to help inspire you to live a joy-filled life.
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EP. 108 Mark Negley
Tony: Hey everyone. Welcome back to the reclamation podcast, where our goal is to help you reclaim good practices for faith and life. The reclamation podcast is brought to you by the spirit and truth podcast network. For more information on spirit and truth, check out their ministry page at spiritandtruth.life.
Hey everybody, if we haven't met yet, my name is Tony and this is episode one oh eight of the podcasts. I get to sit down with author and grief expert, Mark Neagley. Mark and I talk about ways to experience grief about how to appreciate where you are and talks a great deal about the voice of God and how to kind of live in the tension of grief and faith and promise.
I think you're going to enjoy this conversation. He gives some really practical advice to anyone who is suffering from grief and based off of his research, there are 300 million of us. That are impacted by a loss. If you do enjoy this episode, do me a favor, hit that subscribe button, wherever you listen to podcasts.
Share this episode with a friend, maybe a grieving friend, and leave a rating and review on iTunes. It does go a long way to help find help people find the podcast. Whenever they're looking for whatever the topic may be. So your rating or review really does make a difference. Now, if you want to learn more about what mark said, if you want to find out some more details, we have full show notes@reclamationpodcasts.com, reclamation podcasts.com.
All of the show notes are listed there. Plus links. Anything that we talk about in the episode are all listed on that website. So without any further ado, here's my conversation with mark thankful for all you guys. I think you're going to enjoy this conversation. Hey everybody. Welcome back to the podcast.
I'm here today with author, speaker and, and CEO, right? Mark Negley mark. Thanks so much for being here today.
Mark: Hey Tony. A pleasure. Thanks for having me.
Tony: So how does someone become a grief expert? Because as I was looking at a lot of your writing I think that that's not, I don't think that's a title, many people want to get, tell us a little about your story.
How did you get to this place where you really have dove headfirst into the topic of grief?
Mark: Well, there's a couple of different ways. I think that happens, right. Number one is the traditional route where people go to school, become psychologists, psychiatrists, and so forth. I think those in seminary who have become pastors chaplains and so forth in grief counseling and supporting others is an inherent part of that, of that role, a tough part of it, but an inherent part of it.
The third way is that you go through it yourself and you have a passion that, you know, God inspires in you. And that was my path. And as I. Say in the book I've written on this. And as we talk about this quite frequently, I'm not a rabbi. I'm not a pastor. I'm not a self-proclaimed religious healer or teacher.
I'm not a psychiatrist, psychologist, or doctor. I'm a guy who's been through the gauntlet of life and has learned a great deal about that. And God gave me a little gift that he asked me to share with people that I'm happy to share with you in this discussion. Yeah. I,
Tony: I, the, the resource that you've come out with survive alive thrive is all about this revolutionary model for, for understanding recovery from grief.
And, and it's, it's told through this very personal and intimate idea of, of your gauntlet. I can, you kind of take us through what you experienced.
Mark: Sure. And I would want to say, to start with that as, as we jump into some of the tough stuff that I've been through, that is the foundation of what led me down this path is that today I am a joy-filled happy guy, right.
I am more blessed than, than I certainly deserve to be happily married in, in and, and live in a life that every day, I think for being here and that that's a bit of a contradiction and hard for some, some folks in, in fact, for me to appreciate from time to time considering that gauntlet that you've talked about.
Tony: I think it's also important too.
And you kind of alluded to this as, like, it's not about comparison, right? So like, you're going to share part of your story. It, it it's, there's nuances to it. Right. And, but, but the grief that you're experiencing is your grief and it's real. And we don't want to get into the habit of comparing pain. So well, you know, I, and I think that you, you kind of talk about that as a way to get to joy is as understanding kind of who you are and what that means and looks like.
So if you're listening and you're experiencing grief, I think mark and I both agree that we just want to validate that grief and, and, and listen for the, the, the nuances on how to survive and stay alive and then thrive.
Mark: Yeah. I mean, that's well said. I mean, I can, I can tell you as I'm going to share, you know, grief is real and it is in many cases, overwhelming and heartbreaking and, and it completely turns your life upside down.
And there's not just one way. It's not because you lost somebody that you love. That that's the definition of grief. People are hurting through divorce, through financial catastrophe, losing businesses, struggling with mental health issues, you know, in this this era of COVID. I mean, gosh, how many people are struggling with isolation and not being able to connect and have community with those that they love.
The, you know, that there's an, and of course being diagnosed with a serious illness and, and other challenges are just the tip of the iceberg. In fact, web MD did a survey in 2019 and found that 71% of Americans responded that they had been impacted by a loss of that in their life, that they were still struggling with over the previous three years.
Oh, wow. So if you take 71% times, 300 million Americans. That's 200 million of us just in America. So, you know, we have this sense that we're....
Tony: that's pre COVID, right? Like that's not even counting what it, what we've all been through. The trauma that we've all been through the last year.
Mark: Oh, that is, that's a great point.
And, you know, ultimately we tend to, when we're stuck in these situations that many of us will isolate or kind of circle the wagons, if you will. And ultimately you are not alone in this journey. Not only are there a couple of other people that are, that that can relate to what you're experiencing, but there's tens hundreds of millions of us, and that's just in this United States.
So, you know, I want to encourage you if you're going through this too. You know, listen a little bit to what we're talking about here today and, you know, embrace the fact that this is a tough experience and it's true and it's valid, but. You know, we have hope that you can navigate your way through this and find yourself living a happy and then joy-filled life.
And and if, as you'll, you'll hear my story, if I can do it, I promise you that you can.
Tony: And this is actually a great place to mention your podcasts because your podcast is really focusing on that joy-filled life, right? Like what's the name of it so that I know my listeners are gonna want to subscribe to it.
What's the name of the podcast?
Mark: Well, it's survival life thrive, which is the name of my book and the nonprofit entities. So it's survival life thrive, and it's navigating the journey from loss to a joy-filled life. And on it, you know, I'm privileged to interview folks who have gone through really tough stuff who share their stories.
Many people who are well known. Of their loss and brokenness. And it can be from the loss of of, of a child, a spouse, a parent, or a dear friend or sibling. It can be fighting drug addiction and alcoholism and finding their way through that through that challenge. But you know, ultimately it's, it's, it's a great reminder that when God is at the center of, of, of our journey and there is the potential to find joy and happiness again, and we hope to walk you through those examples.
Tony: No, I love that. And I love that because you're coming from such an authentic place. So let's kind of jump into your story where, where is the best place to jump in so that we can appreciate where you've been and have a deeper understanding about where you are now, because I think it's the journey that we're going to get a lot of growth out of.
Mark: Well, I appreciate that. So, you know, there's a lot of different ways to tell my story. I think I'm going to start in 2015 I was passing a kidney stone, which sadly I've gone through. And for those of you who have been through this, that is no fun.
Tony: Multiple times, it's the worst in the world.
Mark: And you know, pass is true, but while you're in it, oh my gosh, it is, it is, it is tough. So I was going through this and it was the 12th one or so that I had passed. And the urologist said, you know, look, there's some Kim's here that I don't like. And brought me back in said, the more we look at this I'm concerned, I want to do a comprehensive biopsy.
They did a 12 point biopsy on my prostate. Set it out through Johns Hopkins, called me back three days later and said I needed to come in to talk to the doctor. And the prophetic words, and you have to bring your wife. I'm just telling you, that's usually not good news. So we go in and he looks me in the eye and says, look, I, I don't know, there's no easy way to say this, but that you have a pretty significant advanced case of prostate cancer.
And we're going to need to take some steps to make sure it either hasn't already or will not metastasize to other organs. Well, that's not news that is easy to take. I mean, there's, there's a lot of different ways when the doctor's looking you eye to eye and says the word cancer that transcends this idea that I, I understand what cancer is and I've heard other people.
But you're talking about me. And as he went on and said, I don't think this will kill you. I think that we're going to, and I'm thinking, kill me. I mean, I was running, I didn't even know that was on the table. I walked running five miles, three days a week. I'm in an excellent shape. You know what I mean? I'm feeling like, what are you talking about?
Who's talking about killing me. And then of course my wife digs right into the into the literature and he's recommending either a radical surgery a chemotherapy or these radiation seed implants has various options. And it gives us a week to review the options and get back to them. So, you know, walk out of there a little shell-shocked right.
And go through the experience. And we agree this was on a Thursday that a week later on a Friday we're going to. Have a discussion about which of these three options that he's recommending is, is the is the best solution. So you know, I, as I mentioned earlier, I circled the wagons. I tell my sister, who's a physician and her husband, who's also a doctor and my brother and maybe three or four of my closest friends.
And I instruct my wife, Victoria, do not tell anybody about this. Right. Which she looked at me like, well, don't, we want a big, you know, prayer chain to get started. I'm like, this is private. This is my information. And I've learned later that that's a fairly common reaction. Right. And it's, it's not in my experience in retrospect, the right decision, but it was just kind of a, a circle, the wagons sort of a feeling well about three or four days later, a friend of mine calls and says, listen, my wife.
Sarah who had told about this. He was one of my dear close circle of friends. Sarah had been on a prayer walk and she had something to tell me. I said, Noah. Okay. So she puts her on speaker on his car phone and she says, mark, I've been on a prayer walk and God has told me you will be healed. Come on.
So I'm saying, okay, well, that's great. I'm here for that. Right. Did he say how or when, or, and she's like, no, I just, I had this distinct message as I was praying for you. He says, mark will be healed. He just, and I just wanted you to know that I wanted you to encourage you. And I was like, great. You know, thanks.
What do you do with that information? So I go home and tell my wife, Victoria is like, oh, Of course, he's very, you know, very concrete about this. And ultimately we get Sarah back on the phone because Victoria's got questions. She's like, well, did God say chemo or seeds or surgery? And Sarah was kind of laughing, you know, no, he just said mark would be healed.
And after a 15, 20 minute discussion and thanking them, cause they're dear friends. We hang up and Victoria looks at me and she goes, radiation seeds are the way to go. I know somebody who did it, we're all good. That's great. And walks away. And I thought, wow, you know what I mean? This is overwhelming stuff too, to try to process, right.
So ultimately it's Thursday now the night before Friday's phone call with the doctor and Friday morning, I have a board meeting, so we have set a call at two o'clock. But to have the call and we go to sleep and at four in the morning, I'm restless and I'm kind of restless and I'm in that a little bit awake stage and kind of look, you know, lying down, but looking around the room, wondering, you know, what am I going to do?
And so here's one of these unusual moments, the most unusual moment, arguably in my life. And that is a audible voice. What I consider to be the voice of God, holy spirit. Not sure how to define it says to me, you will be healed and then I will reveal your commission. Wow. So, you know, I'd like to think I'm not a Coke.
So I sit up in bed and I'm running through my mind, like, whoa, the pressure is getting to me. The, maybe that was like a residual component of my dream. And I swing my feet around and put them on the floor. I'm kind of sitting on the side of the bed, right. I take a sip of water from the glass on the nighttime table next to our bed.
And again, the voice says very clearly, almost like a field of dreams, sort of a theorial type of voice. You will be healed and then I will reveal your commission. Wow. So I stand up and what do I do? I go to the alarm panel on the master bed. Cause I'm like, are the doors open? Has somebody opened the window?
It's may of 2015. And of course everything's locked up tight. It's four in the morning. There's not a sound in the neighborhood or anywhere or in suburban connection. At the end of a long driveway, I mean, this is, I mean, I throw water on my face pace, grab my journal. Right. You know, furiously go into the office because my home office and, you know, I, I pray, I, I pace, you know, I'm like, okay, it's five 30.
I've got to get up at seven for a board meeting. I, I go back to bed seven o'clock the alarm goes off. I get up, take my shower, put on my little suit, getting ready to go to work. And suddenly I have this overwhelming desire to read the book of acts. Now, do you remember closely encounters of the third kind when Richard Dreyfus is like.
Overwhelmed with this desire to go to the mountain. He's making mashed potato, you know, things in his, in his way. So it wasn't quite as cookies that, but it was, you know, I, I need to read the book of acts. So I texted my CEO and say something's come up. I might be late. Now. I was running the revenue side of this business and I was first up presenting the revenue to the board.
So here it is seven 30 and I'm texting him. I'm going to be a little late. And of course it took 1.4 seconds for him to respond to my texts. Like, what are you talking about? You're on first. I said, well, can you rearrange it? He goes, well, is everything okay? And I said, something's come up. You know, I, I didn't know what to say.
I, I hadn't even told him that I'd been diagnosed with cancer. So. I start reading the book of acts and as many of our listeners know, it's a long book, right? The jury. Yeah. Yeah.
Tony: It's not short. It's not, it's not a, like, it's not a one, you know, not usually a one-stop like reading and venture here.
Mark: And not only that, I'm not giving any direction as far as I can tell which chapters aside, just sit down and Bible gateway chapter one, three, seven.
I look at my watch. It's like eight, 15. I'm like, oh my gosh. And I'm reading it because I'm like, God has spoken to me. That doesn't happen every day. Sure. I, I've got to keep doing this and 8:30 AM on chapter 15 is Clinton closer to nine. I'm at 18. I texted him. I'm trying nine 30 or 10 o'clock you know, and I'm getting question mark back on my texts, like really?
So I get to chapter 20. And this is when Paul is returning Jerusalem. And he'll inevitably be arrested, but it is his church, plant friends and partners in modern day Turkey, trying to talk him out of going back. And they're like, no, they're plotting. They're waiting for you. And chapter 20 verse 23, he says, although I know that hardship and even prison awakening my life means nothing to me.
The only thing that matters is to finish the race and that race testify to the grace of God, through Jesus Christ. And I, it's kind of like, okay, hold on a minute. This is the point. And I read it again. I read it again and I'm thinking, okay. I, I think I, I get it that my commission will be to testify to the grace of God to Christ.
I, I got it. So. I get down on my knees, you know, again, in my own little home office. And I'm thinking, wouldn't this be great if it's a Charlton Heston moment. Right, right. Should I say something like, though art blessed me with but you know, I mean, that's not how I prayer card, so God, or is, is this like the deal?
This is you're saying, are we doing this? And then I testify to your grace. And it was kind of like a little, a serial patent ahead that said, okay, you got to get to work now.
Tony: Wait, can you describe your faith prior to this moment where you were you actively following Jesus? Were you like, cause, cause I think a lot of people identify as Christian, but aren't, don't really have like the most in-depth faceless faith life.
Where were you on the scale of connection to Christ prior to this. You know, a pat on the head.
Mark: Sure. Well, that's a great question. So I was raised as a, as a kid and Episcopalian and the suburbs of Chicago and walked away from any form of religion when I was about 13. And, you know, I felt that religion, it had all kinds of problems that I couldn't wrap my arms around sharing.
It took me and tell a pretty amazing event happened in my early forties in 1999. When a neighbor brought me into a discussion about the difference between religion and a relationship with God, a friendship with God. And I, in, in my book, survival life thrive. There's a. Chapter that is says, wait, what?
God is my friend, right? Th this was, this was a revolutionary thinking for me. It's like, no, I understand what religion is. And my friend Steve was able to guide me in that direction now to be fair, I was successful in the world, had some achieved some success in the sales and the media, you know, related business.
But when Steve and I had this conversation, he said, are you happy? And my desire was to say, in fact, I did say yes I'm happy. I'm really, I'm incredibly happy. And you're not. The fact is I wasn't. And I knew it. And I was trying to overcompensate for that. There was a hole that money and toys and, and trips and vacations and houses.
None of this was making me what I would call happy. Right. And my wife and I spoke about that and she said, I don't know if we are happy, right? I mean, what do we want from life? Our son was three years old and that led me down this journey to reassess and understand, you know, God and the, the writings of CS Lewis and mere Christianity that the book is so profoundly simple.
Right. But God's, grace is so different than any other worldview. That's out there. A God who has suffered like we have in loves us unconditionally, no matter what, which is a really important foundational piece for grief, by the way. Right. If you've gone through tough stuff. So was he.
Tony: So you kind of get to this place where God's given you the pat on the head.
Right. And he you've, you've you've grown in your faith over the last several years. And, and so do you go to the meeting?
Mark: Well I go to the meeting. I go to the, the meeting at work and things go fine. And at two o'clock I get the phone call from the doctor and he's saying eh, how are you doing it?
You know, I know it's been a tough week and have you made a decision? And I said, and his words were, so what are we doing? And he, you know, it was kind of an interesting word choice. And I said, well, I don't think I'm going to do anything. There's a little bit of a pause on the phone. And he's like, okay. Probably thinking to himself, poor word choice.
He goes, I don't mean today. I just mean if you decided the three options that I've spelled out and I said, yeah, no, I understood what you meant. I, I don't, I'm, I'm thinking healing now there's a little longer pause and he might've said just what you did. Hmm Hmm. And he comes back and he's like, okay. So like homeopathic or naturopathic, or are you thinking like some European and I'm, I'm like get boxed into a corner.
I have, I can't think of an excuse. Are we just saying this to be awkward in this of this conversation, but I'm like no. I'm thinking God, now there's a long pause on the other side and you know, the, doctor's a good guy, but you know, he's coming back. It's like mark, listen, I know this has been a stressful week.
This is a serious decision. Why don't you come in and bring Victoria on Monday and we'll have a more serious conversation about it. So we go in, and of course I get home and have to walk through this with my wife who is skeptical, I would say at the very least, but on the other hand believes and trusts God and you know, wants me to be faithful to my convictions and my relationship with God.
So we have this this decision to make and we decide we're going to stick to what I believe is the truth, which was to allow God to heal me. And so seven months later, it's still a member and the organization the hospital organization and practice calls and says I have to come in. I've refused.
Treatment. And you know, we've been taking blood tests and so forth to monitor, to monitor various things. And they say I have to sign a waiver, releasing them from responsibility because they've recommended that I do this and that. So w you know, and I'm refusing it. So I go in and I agree to sign it.
And victory goes with me and she's a wreck. And as we get there I'm like, look, what other choice do I have? He says, well, what we could do is do a second biopsy, comprehensive 12 point, and then we can also see if there's any evidence of metastasis if it's moved to other organs. So I agree, and it's not a fun procedure.
I've just got to tell you, but it, you know, but, but at the end of the day and frequently it's recommended you shouldn't do two biopsies in a year. Cause it can actually initiate metastasis, ration the more You probe. So anyway, I agree to it. Three days later, he calls and the S to get my wife on the line again, which had me a little bit curious.
And he says, okay, I just want to hear from both of you, have you been seeing another doctor? And I said, no, said treatments. I said, no. And he's like, well, look, he goes, this is the darnedest thing. I can't explain this, but there is no cancer present. Won't he do it? A met my wife cries. I'm like, yes, he goes, I can't explain it.
I don't understand it. I go, I can't explain it. God promised me this. I told you this. And he's like, well, I think we need to do some more tests. And I'm like, no, we don't. I'm good, man.
So. Ultimately that was the story and I'm on the way I was involved after my coming to know Jesus personally in in 1999, got very involved in men's felt in, in men's ministry and talking to men in the marketplace, not necessarily Bible study, but more along the lines of what difference does a relationship with God make and was very involved in an organization called new Canaan society.
I'd lived in new Canaan, Connecticut, and I'm involved in leadership there in the early stages of the organization. And today it's a, it's a wonderful large national organization that serves men in the marketplace. But you know, this was a passion of mine and I was going to a regional retreat and the owner, or pardon me, the founder of that organization is a dear friend of mine.
And, and he, and I. Talked about what I just been through. And he said, you've got to tell your testimony. So I went up before the keynote and shared my testimony about cancer and invited other men who were at the event, a couple of hundred people there to share their experience. Have they been keeping this to themselves?
And after a few awkward moments, a guy stood up and then another 12 people set up sharing their experiences, what they were currently being diagnosed with and kept to themselves or a family member or you know, it was really amazing. And I thought, this is it, man. I'm living, I'm living my commission.
I've been healed of cancer. How great is this? This is, this is the most wonderful deal ever. I'm so glad. And I made that, that agreement with God back in my office, but you know what, that, that was not what my journey was going to be about. So there's another chapter.
Tony: How did you how did you live in that, that moment from, okay, trusting God with the promise of your healing to actually being healed? Because I think there are a lot of people who are listening right now, who are, who are in that period of trust, surrender and wait. Right. And, and, and I would say that as, you know, being the successful business owner that you are, and, and, you know, successful in the marketplace, like, I think you probably have a lot of the same tendencies that I do, which is I want to be in control.
Right. Talk to me about that space in the middle.
Mark: Well, it, in that context that I had surrendered my life and trust and, and I have, you know, like a lot of men and, and and, and women particularly type a folks like to build things, or I have control related. Issues. Amen.
Tony: Right here. I mean, you're talking to them.
I got I'm all for that.
Mark: So, you know what I mean? So it's a great question, but it, you know, to me, my worldview had had my, my faith had driven me to understand that God's in charge and he's got everything and in the end I trust him. So it, you know, surprisingly it was not very anxious. Right. I mean, I, I frankly rarely thought about it.
Right. And until, or unless we had one of our bi-weekly or then, you know, monthly meetings with the urologist, it was like, oh yeah, that's coming up next week. I wonder how I'm doing. But, you know, I was busy. I continued to stay physically active and exercise and I felt fine. I didn't feel like I was sick or losing energy, but I was aware of it.
Deep back and probably prayed more about asking for a trust and peace, right. That Philippians talks about in Philippians chapter four, verse six, he talks about a peace that surpasses all understanding. When you ask him with an, with a thanks filled heart to help you through things that you're struggling with.
And, you know, I think I may have been either I was in denial or I was in a living the blessing of the peace of God helping me through it. But it, you know, obviously that kind of unraveled when I got the call about writing the The signing the release form.
Tony: So did so it obviously changed your relationship with God.
Did it, did it change the relationship with anybody else in your life?
Mark: Yes, it, it, I mean, ultimately I think my wife and I were aware of the F this sort of diagnosis, w what I've, you know, I've been interviewing for the last five years now, people who have gone through experiences like this and the rest of the story that I'm going to share with you.
And I find that there is a blessing that happens interpersonally, or that can happen in a person's life where people recognize their mortality and the gifts that we have of life here together. And you tend to, there's a great song by Tim McGraw, which is live like you were dying. Oh yeah. No, well, Yeah, love that song.
And so what did you do? And his lyrics are, I went skydive and went Rocky mountain hiking did 2.7 seconds on a bull named Fu Manchu or something like that. But, you know, he lived his life and we found a lot of blessings in that timeframe. But again, I mean, honestly we didn't dwell on it. We were focused on life and trust and aware that sooner or later we'll find out what his plan was.
So it was revealed to me that I could trust him. It turned out that he chose his will, was to heal my cancer, which is not, was not necessarily a sure thing was not necessarily the, you know, what's going to happen to anybody else who goes through that experience. But he had a reason for doing that. And I wasn't sure what it was, although.
As I'm talking to people and about my experience and seeing folks find encouragement to that. I really thought that was the primary the primary story, but it wasn't six months later actually I'm going to back up a little bit. In 2010, I was in a management meeting at a, at a different company.
And I got a phone call and ignored it a few times. The third time, it called from a number I didn't recognize within like literally 60 seconds. I finally answered it and it was a paramedic who told me he was in the ambulance with my wife. I'm going to the hospital. She'd been on a heart high-speed car accident.
And they thought she was going to make it through, but I needed to get to the hospital. Wow. Now that is also a call that you don't prepare yourself for whether it's a caregiver or sibling or parent, and certainly your spouse. So I rushed to the hospital and Victoria made it through but she had significant neurological damage to her neck and head.
She had, had she been in an accident with a landscape truck, one of these big trucks that have a cage in the back that carry lawnmowers and that sort of stuff. And it was serious. Our, our SUV land Rover was, it was smashed in ways that I could not imagine. But she made it through. And the trauma that she suffered had left her with some debilitating pain and symptoms that we couldn't.
Figure out, no matter how many neurologists and, and internists and so forth that we met. And it was really frustrating for her and that folks who have lived with this pain or chronic pain, understand some of this journey and it over time spiraled into a depression. And in 2012, that depression went from a minor struggle to a, a break, a delusional break.
And she was struggling with paranoid delusional thinking. We got her into care with a psychologist, psychiatrist, and a very terrific Christian caring group. And over the next couple of years, experimenting with medication. We were able to get her back a good 80% of where she was.
So she didn't feel like a zombie, but she was able to also not be struggling with these issues and the neurological stuff was still present. So it was a super hard time and people who have been through this, I just want to express my compassion, having been through this myself, when you have a person in your family who struggles with mental illness, mental health issues, depression, et cetera, it's not as heartbreaking it is for that person.
It's not just them. This is a family thing. You know, your, your, your spouse, your parents, your kids, your, I mean, your friends, it is heartbreaking and difficult, you know, and of course our hearts are in it for those who are struggling. But boy, it's tough. Right? Our son was in a 16 when she was in the car accident.
And, you know, he watched his mom go from this incredibly bright, talented manager of, of his, in our lives to struggling every day with the pain and, and emotional challenges that went with her condition. And it is heartbreaking, you know, for, for everybody involved. But the good news is that the medication worked and and I, and I would also say for people who've been through this, it's not like take the blue pill or the red pill and see which one that works.
Tony: Right. It really is much more of an art, isn't it?
Mark: And it's, it's, it's experiment, it's trial and error because somebody who might be diagnosed with one form of mental illness may. Respond to the some combination of pills where another person with the exact same diagnosis doesn't. So you're really experimenting with multiple solutions and, and our potty chemistries.
And, you know, it's tough, but we found an answer thankfully. And now we get through my cancer experience and we're thinking, this is great. Our son who has dyslexia and significant learning disabilities. But who's a really smart young man is going to a a high school that specializes in teaching kids with these challenges.
And he was doing well, had actually scholarship offers to run cross country in college. And it was just a wonderful accomplishment, scheduled, a big party with about 30 people family members and close friends to. Have a manhood tribute to Anderson, celebrating and toasting him on his way to college and a little more than a month before then, Victoria decides that she wants to lose the weight that the medication is causing and decides that she's going to go off medication.
Well, now you're no longer under doctor's control as she was when she had her break. Because it'd been several years, so she's making her own decisions. And again, in the mental health arena of another very common thing people go through is that the person who's struggling with it takes medication feels better.
And then I don't need it anymore. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Then they go back down and then they take it again and then they feel better and they, well, I don't need it anymore, but yeah, in this case, it's, it's completely fair to understand that the medications do typically put weight on the. The user. And so she decided that was it.
I mean, obviously I was deeply concerned about that, but I was, my job was to support and, and love her and try to be a sounding board. And as the next five weeks went down, she started to spiral again. And by the time we got to his weekend, he was she was struggling and what was clearly like dark eyes again.
And, and we got back from that weekend that big celebration and spent the Monday planning Anderson's. My son's name is Anderson landing is the college choice, which of the scholarship offers he was going to take. And the next day. Went for a run Anderson, went for a training run.
Then I went to hit some golf balls and on the way back home, I said something was wrong. Anderson didn't think his mom was home. And the long and short of it is as I pulled into our home that evening around five o'clock. I pulled into the garage to found out, to find that she had taken her life.
And she was in the garage had hung herself with a ski rope and, and it was a traumatic and horrible, horrible surgery situation. My son heard me yell in the in the garage, came running through the door and found me trying to get his mom's body down. And yeah. I mean, just stuff that you can't imagine by that by the time the we called nine one one, but at the time the paramedics and police showed up, they moved me away and I was crawling on my hands and knees like a wounded animal on the floor.
And I mean, literally in shock and then, you know agony, right? Emotional brokenness and a policeman showed mercy and, you know, took my arm and lifted me up and walked me into the home. And then it, then it started right now. What, and that timeframe, what I call the survive stage of loss is wrought with unimaginable challenges, both emotionally and, and strategically.
Right. So, you know, fast forward to 10 days later, I had spent the next week walking the park about three or four in the morning. I couldn't, I just couldn't sleep. You know, images would pop in my head. My sister and brother had come from Nashville. I was in Connecticut at the time and stayed with me for, for, you know, two weeks.
Heroic support moves by them for which I will always be grateful and in debt and fortunate to have close relationships with my siblings, but this was amazing friends and the community, you know, rallied around, but it's, it's overwhelming. And I just needed to go to the park alone and talk to God and, and ask for answers and pray and, and, and cry.
And, you know, I mean, it was, it was a really dark time, but through it, Although the park was completely vacant at three 30 in the morning and Connecticut may I wasn't alone, right? Yeah. I kept getting this message that I'm greater than that. So I started bringing a notebook with me about the second or third day and I'd walk around and I've seen greater than that.
And I kept writing it. I have like four pages just as greater than that, greater than that, greater than that. And then I start filling it in greater than mental health, greater than cancer, greater than suicide, greater than, you know, greater than anything greater than life, greater than death. I mean, so I forge a eulogy for Victoria that is entitled greater than that.
Wow. After the three eulogies that proceeded from two close friends and one of her brothers. I gave the greater than that eulogy. And it was about God is greater than all of the things I just mentioned, and we're not going to let the enemy further victimize us. We're not going to let the enemy put shame on us through this event.
We're going to not focus on Victoria's death. We're going to talk about the way she lived life. And the fact that the greatest day of her life was meeting Jesus Christ and being embraced by his arms. And while that might've been the worst day of my life as the song for mercy, me, I can only imagine, yeah, the first in his presence.
I mean, this is what we chose to focus on and think about. And following that event, we had hundreds of people attend this event and Victoria was well loved. And I started getting texts and calls and. Emails and dozens and dozens of them. And they all, almost every single one of them said, thank you for testifying to the grace of God and Jesus Christ, praise God.
And I was reading these things and I started saying to my brother, look at this. And this one says this, and we started highlighting them. And we were like, you know what? The intervention that I had experienced with God's offering to heal my cancer and reveal my commission, which was acts 20 verse 23, which was to agree to testify to the grace of God through Christ had nothing to do or had something to do maybe, but with my cancer, but it was really.
About preparing me for what I was going to experience a year later and using that experience to help people go through really incredibly tough stuff. Like I've just shared with you.
Tony: I love that. Like Romans eight, 28 comes to mind, like all things work together for his good, right. And
Mark: I certainly don't ever think that God wants those things to happen, man.
Tony: We serve a redeeming God. And I just love that.
Mark: Right. Well, you know, thanks for that encouragement. And it, you know, I started speaking on this. I went to the same conference the next year and they asked me to share the story. It was really interesting from one year of talking about being healed of cancer to another suffering, the loss of my wife in such a tragic way that the point was.
My understanding my trust in God was not contingent on whether I was getting good news or whether there was struggling to do something really tough. And as a result of that discussion, I was asked to speak some other places and a publisher approached me and said, boy, I really want to tell your story in a book.
Can we publish a book about your story? And I was given some advice. I mean, I said, sure, that'd be great. Right. And I talked to a friend about this who's that kind of mentoring impactful sort of a guy in my life. And he said, I don't think that's what you should be doing right now. And I was kind of like what the guy offered me a, a book opportunity.
What are you talking about? And he goes, it's bigger than just your story, man. I don't think. That's God wouldn't do this just so you would tell your story. And I said, well, how long do you think I should take? And he goes, I don't think you're going to like that answer.
Tony: I hate friends like this.
Mark: You're asking. He says, I think about four years. Oh wow. I was like four years. I just looked at it. I'm like, you know, I don't remember the character. He said, well, you must have lost your mind, you know, for years. So, you know, I turned down that, that, that book opportunity, and I started on this journey of interviewing people who had been through their own experiences of, of loss and challenge folks who were terminally ill folks who had lost people through the midnight call, right.
Or through the long, hard road of battling the an illness that, that eventually took their loved one, the experience of ongoing struggle and hardship, battling mental health issues with somebody that they love. And I found that not only, and by the way, I got counseling following, you know, my experience from a guy who specialized in trauma counseling had been a fireman counselor during the nine 11 bombing.
And, you know, he and I I mean, we did some good work together. He was really a great blessing for me. So what what we're doing with survival life thrive is part of it. Right. But if you've been through this. Getting a counselor. And we talk about this in my book, how to find one and identify one in the challenges associated with that.
But along with counseling and processing and so forth, I started interviewing people because I had read a book by someone that you have interviewed recently on your podcast Dr. Kurt Thompson, and it was the book was called anatomy of the soul. And he had referred to this guy a professor psych professor at UCLA named Dan Siegel, who was pioneering this research on the idea that the act of sharing actually stimulates healing, that he could measure on a neuro biologically scientifically supported manner.
And I thought, wow, that's amazing. So I started reading that. I started reading his work and it ties in beautifully, obviously group, group support. Meetings and so forth are about sharing, right? When you, in fact, the very act of getting counseling is sharing and working through. But the part of the reason why I love podcasts so much, it's, there's such a healing idea to this.
Tony: Just people share it.
Mark: Oh, that's, that's such a great point. And you know, you're engaging as a healer yourself by providing that opportunity. Every time I share my story, I experience healing that is according to Dr. Siegel, measurable neuro-biological improvable. So you know, what a wonderful gift that you're providing, you know, in, in this process and imagine those out there who say, well, I don't want to tell my story.
And I interviewed them and I say, well, how about if you think about there's somebody out there who's going through what you've been through and that your story can help them encourage them. A hundred percent say, oh, all right, well then I will do it. If it'll help somebody. I mean, that's the beauty of who we are, children.
Right. I don't want to talk about myself. Well, what if you can help somebody? I can help somebody I'm in, right? There's a, there's a quote that I love from Billy Graham, the great Billy Graham, and sure. It starts one of the final chapters in my book. And that, that quote is the suffer becomes the comforter in the service of the Lord who as good.
Say that one more time. The sufferer becomes the comforter in the service of the Lord. Now think about that Jesus Christ suffered on our behalf. Right? Think about what he went through. I mean, stuff that is just really hard to imagine. And, you know, you can watch the movie, the passion of the Christ to get an idea of that, but the, the point being suffering in ways that we can only imagine, and who do we, as Christians turn to for comfort the sufferer, who's now the comforter.
So when we are engaging in a life that is to honor and reflect what he has modeled for us, the only God idea in the history of religion that actually suffered himself for us and offers us comfort. Having walked that same journey. Now you, as someone who's gone through suffering, have the opportunity to.
Engage in that same role and comfort others. Isn't that beautiful?
Tony: It's so beautiful. And it seems so simple, but yet just not something that we very often think about that that sharing is healing and healing is sharing, and there's kind of this weird kind of you know, dynamic connection between the two. And I, I love the way you bring that out. That's powerful stuff.
Mark: Yeah. Well, thank you for that encouragement. And I'm telling you, I've been so encouraged with the folks that I've talked to. And part of that, that process revealed that grief processing the journey. The, the traditional steps of grieving don't apply.
I couldn't relate to them. And the hundreds of people that I've interviewed over the last several years, Not a single one said, oh yeah, those five stages really makes sense to me. Right. Think I'm in step three.
Tony: Right. You know? Right.
Mark: And by the way, those th those are built on this groundbreaking work by Swiss psychologist, Elizabeth Kubler, Ross, and 1969, 50 years ago.
And it was called the five stages of grief and they are denial. I'm sorry. And they are denial, anger, depression, negotiation, bargaining, and acceptance. And they're singular emotional stages that you progress to acceptance and healing. And it's just, it, it just doesn't make sense. So I did more research on that after a couple of years, and I found, you know, what.
It wasn't even intended for those of us who have experienced loss. In fact, it was written. If you go back to her work, it's written specifically for people who have been diagnosed with a terminal illness and had three to six months to live. That was the whole research. No.
Tony: And then we just kind of misinterpreted it all these years.
Mark: Well, it's been, it's been massage any, doesn't go in this order. Maybe there's seven of them or whatever. The survive alive thrive completely re-imagined and reframes and remodels that into the three stages survive in close proximity to your loss. When you're literally just trying to get through one hour, day or weekday, then those are the 3:00 AM walks in the park.
Bingo. And then you pray, you transitioned to the alive stage where you have to live your life and you got to pay your bills and your kids got to go to school. My son had to go to college. It's only three months later. Right. But your heart is not heal. You're, you're still suffering brokenness and pain, but you have to be alive.
How do you balance that and find healing through that process? And then the third is when you've achieved a sense of re-experiencing joy and happiness in your life, right. And yet your loss will always be a part. Of who you are. It says these experiences are woven into the fabric of our journey, right?
Yeah. Yeah. Know, they'll always be a part of us not I hit the fist stage and it's over.
Tony: I feel like it's not, it's not the magic. It's not the magic wand, right? It's just no, no, no way.
Mark: And then further what survive alive thrive shares is that in each stage, the experiences atomic in nature, this is a new model idea in atomic means there are many, many emotions and life tasks and feelings and, and, and.
Experiences that are all swirling around within that stage. It's not a singular emotion, right? There's many, many things, guilt, grief, happiness that she went to heaven, sadness. She's not here loneliness, or how can this abandoned? I mean, there's all these things. Some are positive and some are, are, are painful, but it's not one it's many.
Now imagine each of those emotions as a ping pong ball. And let's just say, there's 10 of them. If you put them in a goldfish bowl and shake that goldfish bowl, they're going to be banging into each other constantly, right? This is the compressed state. Now you move and you get a little more emotional elbow room.
Those 10 ping pong balls are now in more of a life stage. That's as big as a, those storage pods in front of your house. So if you could pick that up and shake it. They'll still bang into each other, but less frequently than a little goldfish bowl and even in alive, right. Even in the alive stage, you're living life.
And it's great. But now those 10 emotional dynamics that are part of your loss experience are in a container like a hot air balloon. And if you shake that big old thing every now and then they might bump into each other and think about this metaphorically, like on an anniversary holiday, or when you run into a picture so good, you know, it's going to happen.
It didn't, it doesn't go away. Whereas a linear progression of, of singular emotions, suddenly 10 years later, you cry when you, and by the way, I'm one of these guys who cries, right? When you see a picture or you tell a story or someone remembers an event. And it's touching and poignant and you cry could be tears of joy could be tears of sadness.
Does that mean, oh my gosh, I've regressed. I'm all the way back on stage one. No, no, it just means that a couple of those pink pong, emotional balls collided, and you're still okay. So this book is about helping people navigate the process, understanding where they are and how to take healthy steps to get to the point where they're thriving and giving back.
Tony: I just love it. I love the image of the ping pong balls because every new relationship adds another ball into the equation. Right. And if hot air balloon, even though you're, even though you're in thrive, right. And everything's great, sometimes that ping pong ball with your son who is wonderful and awesome, like still bangs up against that.
That, that kind of, that old ball that just is, is never gonna go away. But ideally, maybe we're just giving it a little bit more space to bounce around.
Mark: So true. And that's that that's well sat. And for each of us, our ping pong balls are different, right? Background is different than yours and that of our listeners.
So there's not one, it's not a one emotional reaction fits all. It's complicated. It's atomic, right? It's like that swirling atomic symbol that you've seen with neutrons and protons and all that stuff swirling around. Oh, man.
Tony: I am so appreciative of your time today, mark. And I'm praying for what God's going to do through this book and through your ministries.
I know that my listeners are gonna want to follow up for you. Where is the best place where they can get connected to the book and your podcast and your ministries. Where is the best place to start out to learn about you on the interwebs?
Mark: Well at I have founded a nonprofit organization, which is called survival life thrived out of work, and it is a an organization intended to provide community and an opportunity to interact with others about your experiences in life, to give back by sharing your story, or if you're in the midst of your struggle to find others that you can connect with and relate to you can do it through the zoom.
Hosted support groups that are our website provides guides that you can enter either through a variety of different ways through what you've been through, what stage you're in, et cetera, a lot of different groups that you can join, which is cool. But again, yeah, and that's, and the website is survive.
Dash alive-thrive.org survive, thrive, survive alive, thrive with dashes in between it.org. And you can reach me@markatsurvivallifethrive.org. I tried to respond to every email that I get. If you want interested in sharing your story, encouraging others would love to hear you and hear about your story.
And most importantly, don't forget you're not alone and that, you know, you can find joy again, you know, by centering on God's love and walking through some steps and. And, and, you know, I hope in some small way, the survival live thrive book and nonprofit entity can, can help you on your journey.
Tony: That's so good.
Okay. Last question. We always love to ask. It's an, it's an advice question, right? Where you give yourself a piece of advice and I'm going to take you to the day that you got the call that your life was going to be changed because of cancer. Right? And so you get the call from your doctor.
Let's go back in time and say, you could talk to the version of yourself, that young version of mark before. You're about to pick up the phone and the doctor's going to say, Hey, I need you and Victoria to come in. What's the one piece of advice you'd give yourself.
Mark: Boy, that's a great question. That's a great question. You know, the advice that I would give myself at that moment would be lean on your faith and trust that.
Everything will work out according to his plan. That would be it just amen. You got to, you have to trust and it's, you know, it's hard to imagine that some of the worst days in our lives are, are actually super important and beautiful steps on the journey that, that God has in mind for us. And it's super hard when you're there.
Particularly when you've lost somebody, but you know, I love your point about Romans eight, 28, right? I mean, he promises that he can use everything you're going through for good. If he live. According to his purpose. Right. And love him.
Tony: So good. Mark, thank you for being so vulnerable and generous with your time today.
What an absolute blessing for me. And I know that I know that a lot of our friends who are listening are just really appreciative. So on behalf of me and, and all of our community here at the reclamation podcast thank you so much.
Mark: Thank you, man. Thank you for what you're doing.
Tony: So many great things and it gets from that conversation with mark, I know that his book survive alive and thrive is going to be a huge blessing.
If you are navigating that journey from loss to life and what that looks like. And I know so many of us are at that is you. I want you to know that I'm praying for you and I know how hard those moments can be. So I hope this conversation was a blessing for you, whether you're navigating loss or not. I think it's relevant information for all of us, which is why I'm so happy to help facilitate this dialogue and that we can all be a part of it together.
As always three ways that you can help us leave a rating or review on iTunes. Subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts and share this episode with a friend. That's how we get the word out. One person, one review, one rating at a time, thankful for all you guys. And as always, I look forward to bringing you fresh new content every week.
Thank you guys. And we'll connect real soon.
Mark: Yeah.
