#112: John Stange: Dwell on These Things
If you have ever thought about what you need to connect with God you are going to love this conversation with Pastor John Stange. John is an author, podcaster, and pastor who loves to help people connect with God in new and exciting ways.
We talk about rhythms, disciplines, and so much more!
Links:
EP. 112 John Stange
Tony: Welcome back to the reclamation podcast while reclaiming good practices for faith and life. My name is Tony and today is episode one 12 of the podcast, and I get to sit down with podcaster author and pastor John . Now, John is an incredible author. He's written over 20. Books. Whew. It's a lot. And in this book we talk about his latest resource dwell on these things.
We discuss what it means to talk to God, to see ourselves the way that God sees. We talk about his writings, discouragement and all the things that help us align with the gospel. I think you're going to love with John has to give us in this conversation and more than anything, I think you're going to love John's heart.
It's got a real pastor's heart. Which is such a blessing to all of us. Now, remember if you enjoyed this conversation, if you enjoy any of our podcasts, the best compliment you can give us is to leave us a rating and review on iTunes and make sure you hit that subscribe button. So you don't miss any of the free episodes that we send out every single week.
Also, if you can share this episode with a friend, it would mean the absolute world to us. If you haven't heard yet, we are a part of the spirit and truth podcast network, a ministry of spirit and truth, which is all an organization all about revitalizing local churches. So if you want to learn more about them and what God is doing through spirit and truth, be sure to check them out spirit and truth.life.
Now that any further ado, here's my conversation with pasture podcast or an author, John . Hey everybody. Welcome back to the podcast. I'm excited to be here today with pastor speaker. Hey, John, thank you so much for being on the podcast. I really appreciate you being here this week.
John: Oh, it's great to be with you today, Tony.
Thanks for having me.
Tony: Well, what you guys don't know that are listening as we've already had several audio problems, I've mispronounced his name twice. The things are off to a great start. John, tell everybody about where you are and kind of what kind of ministry you do pastor speaker. And if I'm correct, you've authored 28 different ones.
John: Yeah, it's, it's it's up there now at this point, but yeah, the so I've been in pastoral ministry for a while. Let's see June 1st makes 24 years. And and so I've been doing that for a while. And then in addition to that, I love to write books. I love to. A podcast. I hope I host three different podcasts.
I enjoy blogging and I oversee a mission board that, that plants and revitalizes churches. So that's kind of the overview of what I'm doing ministry wise. And then my wife and I. We have four children. They are rapidly becoming adults. Two are in college and two are in high school. And so it's nice because we're going through a season where if we want to go and, and just have a date, we don't have to hire a babysitter anymore because three of the kids are driving and one of them is about to drive.
So we're at that sweet spot where they are rapidly becoming self-sufficient and I'm, I'm kind of loving that. Oh, that's awesome.
Tony: So I know that my friends who are listening, they just heard all the things that you do and they're thinking to themselves, how does this guy pull it off? So, so let me ask the question on their behalf.
How do you manage three podcasts blogging writing.
John: Put all that in. I think there's a couple of things I would answer to that. And I don't know if it's even a complete answer, so maybe someone needs to just kind of follow me and see how it's actually coming together. But I know for me, these are all the things I just described to you are things that I get excited about doing.
So sometimes those things I listed feel like work, but in many respects, a lot of times I have to admit it. Doesn't always feel like. The things that I just described, these are things that I'm doing mainly because I enjoy doing them. Not because anyone's making me do them. I it's just how I enjoy using my free time.
And an another thing that I think is key is having systems in place. So I have systems in place, but then a third thing that I'll say is I really don't watch TV. You know, like a little bit, you know, but I mean, when people ask me if I've seen this show, or if I've seen that show, my answer is almost always, no, I haven't seen it, but when it comes to football, I'm more than happy to watch TV.
But apart from apart from football, I really just, I'm at a season of life where I would much rather write a blog post or work on a chapter of a book or record something than sit down and stare at that screen.
Tony: No, I, I can appreciate that. One of the things that we say around here a lot is that if you're not dedicated to your disciplines, you'll be destroyed by your distractions.
And so I think, I think that you're probably a pretty disciplined guy. So if it's okay, can we drill down a little bit on your kind of morning routine? How you, how you spend time with God, how you create space? Because I would guess that there's some people listening who love to do things too, and yet they feel like they don't have time for that.
How do you create. Why for that. And then your stuff is also all very God-centered for the most part. I mean, other than your love for the Eagles. But but yeah. How do you, what kind of disciplines do you do? What's your routine? Like? How does that all work?
John: I I have it's, it's kind of starts off with a weekly routine before it becomes a daily routine because not every day is exactly the same.
So I, you know, as a pastor and you, you can certainly identify with this. So there's a certain rhythm to what a Sunday looks like. And so Sunday's a day that's very much dedicated to you know, worshiping the Lord with our church family and leading different things and then meeting with people in the church.
And then I take Mondays off. Completely off. I try to clear my mind on Mondays and just work in my yard or work in my garage and not really do a whole bunch that involves thinking. I like to just have kind of a, like a thought free day and I just enjoy working with my hands, you know, digging in the dirt, planting something work, you know, just working outside something.
That's just going to kind of interrupt my routine. But then you know, the, the rest of the days kind of have a rhythm where you know, there's a portion of the morning that that's spent is just focusing on my relationship with the Lord. There's a portion of the day that's spent creating content.
There's a portion of the day that's spent developing leaders and there's a portion of the day spent on administrative tasks and it kind of gets shuffled around. You know, in different spots, depending on which day it is, but I'll also confess one other thing. And I think this could, could be certainly a big factor and I hope your listeners won't get mad at me for this because there's somebody that's going to be.
That's going to be concerned about my health when I confess this, but I. Get a lot of sleep. And and I it's been this way my whole life. I don't really sleep a lot. And so many of my writing hours happen in the evening when our house quiets down and I'm just sitting on a chair in our family room with a laptop on my lap.
I have it propped up on a pillow and I, I. And and I do that until I get tired and then I go to bed and sometimes my wife will look at me and she's like, oh, how many hours of sleep did you get? And it's usually, you know, a significant portion, less than what she got. And she's like, but you don't seem tired.
And so we're just convinced that certain personality, certain people maybe just don't need as much. So I think that is kind of how I'm wired or maybe I'm going to hit a spot where I'm just going to crash and say, all right, all the sleep I missed out on. The past bunch of years, I need to take all in one shot and I'll sleep for a month or something.
Tony: So when you say a little sleep, are you talking like three to four hours a night? Because I have a friend who's like that three to four hours.
John: Yeah. It's, it's usually like that. It's usually about four hours, maybe a little bit more than that. And that's, that's very consistent, very consistent for our sleeping pattern and we've read up on it.
And I, and I don't, I, I'm not claiming that it's healthy, but I also know I'm not trying to make myself, I don't, I don't have to set an alarm. I just wake up and it's usually at that four hour part. And and then I'm up and I'm like, all right, I'm ready to go. I don't feel like I'm dragging. So.
Tony: In the afternoon.
John: I really don't know it. I know it's odd. No. Hey,
Tony: listen. I think it's great. I'm I'm for me six to seven. Yeah. But then I love 15 minute power nap in order to get the creative juices flowing.
John: Oh yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, there's times that, that, that I put it this way. I'm not a consistent nap person, but I'm you know, sometimes like, you know, sometimes if I feel kind of tired, I'll just take a nap, but it's not, it's not usually.
Tony: So one of the things I know about you is that you're really passionate at putting out content to help people. Yeah. And so you, you mentioned that time that you spend in the morning. I love to ask people about their quiet time and how some, what does that, what does that look like in your, in your rhythm?
John: The, the pattern that I decided on some years ago was that, especially in this era of social media, because I try and be engaged on social media, it's very easy to wake up and then immediately check your email and then check Facebook or whatever social. Media accounts you use. And I decided somewhere along the way, I thought, you know what?
I don't want that to be the first thing I'm checking in the morning. The first thing I want to do is to read one chapter of scripture. And so and, and I kind of made that promise where I wasn't, I wouldn't check anything else. I wouldn't read anything else until I had. One chapter of scripture and, you know, just thought through it and prayed through it.
And then I had permission to read my email or permission to check Facebook or, or whatever it may be. And that actually inspired the most popular of my three podcasts. I do a podcast called the chapter a day, audio Bible, and I decided that instead of just reading it to myself, that I'd read it out loud and have a time of prayer and I'd record it and turn it into a date.
Podcast. And I started recording it in late 2015 and I've done it ever since.
Tony: Wow. Wow. And it's just now, is that do you record the prayers as well? Or is it I do.
John: Yeah, I recorded the whole thing. Absolutely.
Tony: Do you, how does it do you ever feel vulnerable? I'm putting all of that out there. How do you deal with the because I think there are probably a lot of us who wrestle with the, you know, should I be sharing this shouldn't this, especially in pastoral ministry where you know, that that line is so funny.
John: Yeah, I, sometimes I do. And so part of me is used to sharing a lot and just kind of being thoughtful and careful in what I'm sharing. So as I go along, trying to be, you know, to put some thought into it I also have my wife. That's a good filter. Sometimes if something doesn't feel right in my spirit, I'll just say to her, should I post this or should I share this?
Or, or whatever. And she usually gives me good feedback on, yeah, that's fine. Or if you post this it this way, you know, or, or like take this word out of it. But I had it. I don't know if a school teachers realize the kind of impact they can have on a young person, but I'll, I'll never forget advice that I received from my eighth grade science teacher, Mr.
LaSalle ski. And I remember at that point, I was really just desiring to be thought of as mature. I wanted people to think of me as older than I was, and he made a comment one day and he said the difference between. A mature person and an immature person is that a mature person thinks before they speak and an immature person speaks.
And then maybe they get around to thinking what they just thinking about what they just said. And I thought to myself, I thought I need to commit that to me. And and that's something that I think the Lord wanted me to hear because so much of what I'm doing involves speaking. And so much of what I'm doing is in, in the public eye.
And I think if I can, you know, I can be more open with my life if I'm giving some thought to what I'm saying and thought to what I'm sharing before I should. And just kind of making that a pattern. So Mr. deserves credit for getting that idea in my head. It's been a huge benefit to me, for sure. Yeah.
Tony: Yeah. How do you sell yourself moments of life to think before you speak? Cause that's just something that I need more of in my own life.
John: Yeah, I think for me, it's, it's sometimes it involves just a quick moment of prayer and seeking to discern whether the holy spirit is guiding what I'm saying or whether it comes from the flesh.
So, you know, the Galatians five gives us that great metric where it shows us a picture of worldliness. And then immediately after that, it shows us a picture of the fruit of the spirit. And it's interesting because we decorate it. Kitchens and Sunday school rooms and all that with the fruit of the spirit from Galatians five and a, I don't see a whole lot of decorations based on the earlier part of that chapter, where it lists what worldliness looks like.
We probably should have some sort of reminder about that too. Okay. So I want to make sure I'm coming from the spirit and not from the flesh. That's kind of the discernment.
Tony: You know, it's interesting too, because this is a really great segue into this, this new resource you have coming out, dwell on these things because a lot of it has to do with how we talk to ourselves.
Right. And, and, and so we're talking about like the flesh versus the spirit. How do we know when we're one more in those tapes in our head, or when we're thinking about the words that we use to describe who we are, how do we know. Culture centered or flush centered over there. How, how do you discern the difference?
John: I think for me, one of the most helpful things that I just referenced a second ago was the metric we're given in Galatians five, but there's another metric that I use that I, that I also think, I mean, it goes right along with it, but I try and think of it that way. Is what I'm speaking to my heart. Does it, does it align with the gospel or does it align with some sort of false gospel?
And so when you look at what scripture reveals to us, it shows us that the gospel is the law. The death and the resurrection of Christ. And so there's an application in each of these things. So Christ came to this earth and live the perfect life for us. So the, the true gospel says, all right, I need to trust Christ to be my perfection.
I am not perfect. He is perfect. And he lived the perfect life for me because I couldn't live it. So a false gospel would be me beating myself up about the fact that I'm not perfect. But the true gospel is, well, no, of course you're not perfect. Jesus is. And he is perfecting you, but in the meantime, your hope is him.
So that's connected to the life of Christ, the death of Christ, you know, Christ came to this earth to die for our sin, the righteous for the unrighteous. And I think sometimes we think we personally. Need to be the one to a tone for everything we've done or pay for every everything we'd done. And, and the truth is we really can't make a sufficient payment for it.
So I can't beat myself up enough to pay for the mistakes that I've done. It's not going to be sufficient for it. I can't castigate myself. I can't insult myself or, you know, speak to myself poorly enough to somehow pay for the mistakes that I made. Christ already paid for them. And I need to trust the work that he's done to be sufficient.
And then the third aspect is the fact that when Christ rose from the grave, he secured victory over sin, Satan, and death for me. And so I can trust in him to give me that victory. I can walk in that victory and I don't need to be constantly burdened with this mindset of defeat, because if I'm just burdened with this mindset of defeat, It's basically like I've forgotten the fact that Christ secured victory over all the major things that were holding me back.
And and I don't want to live my life forgetting that. I want to think about the victory that Christ secured for us and shares with us as we trust in him. So that's really, you know, in many respects what I come back to on a day-to-day basis, my exhibiting the fruit of the spirit in my NMI preaching the true gospel to my heart, or am I adopting some aspect of a false God?
Tony: So as you do this kind of self review, right. And you're, you're going through these types of questions and thoughts. How does Jen of, of knowing that the victory is already won? A grace has been freely given and yet the idea of sanctification of trying to become more like Christ is also true, right?
Like all of those statements are true and yet same wretched person I am today from now.
John: Right. Right. Yeah. So, I mean, when it, when it comes to living in that tension, I, I, you know, in my mind, I, I always come back to, there's a verse in the opening chapter of, of the gospel of mark that, that talks about this idea of faith and repentance.
And it's basically like th this idea. That being the constant pattern of our whole life. And so every day I want to trust in Jesus, but I also want to be open about the things that I goof up so I can repent of those things. But my hope is not in my own self perfecting ways. My hope is in Christ. My hope is in the spirit of God, who is, who is sanctifying me and developing, you know, holiness in my life, producing holiness in my life.
And and so I think the tension for me, Am I, depending on myself to try and produce this kind of fruit, or can I trust in the Lord to produce this kind of fruit in my life on a day-to-day basis? And if I can trust in him, I don't have to try and rely on my own attempts at perfectionism or anything like that because, you know, I get some things right.
And I goofed things up and that's on a daily basis. And so Christ has to be my sufficiency. I can't be self-sufficient.
Tony: The title of your book dwell. It's one of my favorite words. So I'm, I'm curious, I'm going to get rid of, I choose that word as we think about the language and the, the words that we use to.
John: The big part of that, that phrase. So dwell on these things. It's actually a statement that comes from Philippians four, eight, and at the end and different translations translated, you know, differently.
Some kind of indicate, you know, like think about this or focus on this or, or, you know, keep your mind, you know, in this regard. But I like the way the CSB translates it. Finally brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely. Whatever is commendable.
If there is any moral excellence, and if there is anything praiseworthy dwell on these things, Alright, dwell on these things. Like these are the things to, to let your mind rest in. These are the things to, to stay focused on. These are the things to actually be feeding your mind day in and day out. And we're surrounded by a whole bunch of stuff that tries to take us in, in negative and unhealthy directions.
There's no shortage of bad news. And and, and, you know, the Lord, it challenges us. You don't have to go in that direction continually with your mind, dwell on things that are righteous and holy and honorable and commendable. These are the type of things that our mind should be ultimately dwelling on and resting in.
Tony: So you mentioned a little bit about the things that kind of grab our attention. I, I'm definitely not one of those pastors that thinks like, oh, you should turn off social media. I love social media.
John: Obviously. I used it too.
Tony: Yeah. I, you know, I love all of that. But you've also got four kids. Yup. Right.
How, how how is it, how's it going? Discipling your kids to dwell on the right thing. I'm curious, mostly because my kids are a little bit younger than yours, right?
John: Yeah. So there's a variety of things that your children are going to be directly taught by you because you've said it and you've modeled it.
And then there's other things that you've, that they will catch from you. Right? So there's the taught and the caught aspect. So one of the things that they notice is that in our household, we don't spend a whole lot of time. Investing ourselves in worldly entertainment. So we're not opposed to watching TV, but we don't watch a lot of it.
We're not opposed to listening to music, but we try and be selective in the music that we listen to. And and so in our context here, you know, even in our household I, I do my best to try and filter our internet. You know, we have a device that tries to filter. Content that would come into the house.
We, we don't spend a whole ton of money you know, just paying for a whole bunch of media. That's really just going to corrupt our minds. And but I'm also doing my best to try and encourage just through what I'm modeling to our children, that I'm not feeding my mind that garbage. And as they see that and hear me talk about it and notice what I'm making available in our household.
I, you know, I, I know that none of us is perfect, but at the same time, they know that that their mother and I are trying our best to actually model this and create a culture in our home that is filled with things that will ultimately lift our minds up and not drag us in a world all the direction.
Tony: And they seem to respond pretty well.
John: Yeah. For the most part, I mean, they're human. So, you know, they could at this point say, yeah, but, but the truth is like, I actually noticed that you know, so three of them are driving, right. And my youngest isn't driving yet, but I can hear what they're listening to.
I'm a big music guy. I love music. I love all different kinds of music, all different pair....
Tony: Favorite band?
John: That I can't even answer that question. I might be able to say like, you know, I li I really love you too. Like, I, I, I just think that a lot of their music is great and, and I've connected with it, but I got to tell you, I actually had the chance to chat with Michael Sweet.
Who's the lead singer of striper. And they are one of my favorite all time bands, they, and, and I just recently I had the chance to interview them on my podcast. And I was like, this guy is legit genuine. And I was really encouraged by that, but like I've noticed as the kids come up to the house, They you know, they, like, I can hear what they're listening to in the car.
I can hear, you know, they're, they're typical teenage car stereos. And to hear them listening to music that I approve of music that is Christ centered, you know music that, that, that I appreciate, or at least, you know, music, that's not going to be. On wholesome. So it's not always necessarily Christian music, but you know, to hear something that's like, all right, that's no, that I'm hearing that now, if they listened to our interview, Tony, they're going to know that I'm, I'm hearing that.
But but I can hear what they're listening to as they pull up. And they don't know that I'm hearing that they don't even realize that it can be heard outside of their car. And and I am seeing that. And you even just last week, My, my one son, he pulled into the driveway and I walked up to his car and he didn't even know I was there and he rolled down his window and he was listening to I don't know if you're familiar with Andy Mineo, but Andy Mineo is a Christian hip hop artist.
And I w I w I was listening for a second. I was like, oh, that's Andy Mineo. And he's like, yeah. I was like, okay, cool. So I know where he heard of Andy Mineo. He heard of him from me. So. He obviously took that to heart and decided I'm going to listen to that too, which that's so important.
Tony: I can remember as a young man.
I wasn't always walking with the Lord as closely as I am. Right. You know, and, and my first my first CD was gangster rap and I memorized the whole thing. Yeah, problem. Here's the problem. Now, 40 years old as a pastor, three kids, I still have all the words in my head.
John: It's all stuck in your head. So you're listening to like NWA or Dr.
Dre or hoop man. It was Dre. That's what I figured.
Tony: And it was all of the albums that I don't even want to say their names on the podcast.
John: No, I don't. I don't blame you.
Tony: It's in there forever.
John: I know like those, I have that same problem because I've been a music guy forever. And there's stuff that I listened to in my youth that I think like I w I remember my freshman year of college, I went through all my, my music and I just purged it.
And I had a lot. Like I had a lot. And and I just, I just decided I'm just going to purge this of stuff that I really, you know, if it's like full of profanity, which a lot of that music was. And if it's, if it's not wholesome and I remember some of my friends saying like, why don't you sell it? Like, why don't you just sell these albums?
And I said, no, because then it's on my conscience that I've now provided garbage for somebody else. I shouldn't have been listening to it. And now I'm going to somehow profit off of selling it to somebody else. No way. And I had a friend that actually. Took a bunch of the CDs that I had destroyed and he smashed them up a little bit further.
Like I had busted them, but he took them and he made it almost like, do you ever see a table? That's a mosaic out of broken tile. He made this like display out of broken CD pieces from all the CDs I had smashed and he smashed them up a little bit. And then you put them under like this plastic and he actually hung it on his wall is like a wall decoration.
And I used to look at it from time to time and I would recognize some of the pieces as being from some of my favorite older CDs. And I thought, oh boy, that I used to love that album, but I had to purge it. I had to get rid of it. And you know, it was kind of like, A way at a young age to say, I want to think about things that are righteous.
I want to think about things that are holy and I was, as I was developing a stronger faith. That was something I realized you really have to screen some of this stuff out. You have to filter what you're feeding your mind because your mental diet will sneak out of your life somehow.
Tony: It you talk about in the book is replacing feelings of discouragement, right.
And kind of replacing some of that language around what we've done and what's looking like, and all those things. Why do you think we default to such a negative place?
John: I think so. You know how in the book of revelation, it talks about the fact that Satan is the accuser of the brethren. I think, I think we are just so used to that voice of accusation and we're so used to just forms of conditional love that we deal with on a day-to-day basis.
That the negativity that is all around us. Sometimes it just becomes a baseline for what we consider normal. And we start treating ourselves like this world treats us, instead of seeing ourselves from the eyes of Christ. And I think one of the things that the Lord helps us with as our faith grows mature is we, we have new eyes, we have a new perspective and we just need to get used to using it.
That new perspective, those new eyes that transformed mind as it talks about in the book of Romans, right? This transformed thinking that we now have as the spirit of God, does his work in us, but it's, it's hard to break old habits. And when you've been used to seeing yourself from a worldly perspective, and when you've been used to discouraging yourself, instead of encouraging yourself with the truth of the gospel, those habits need to be broken and it takes time.
Cause we're in process, right? We're we're in the process of growing holy, but it's. It's not something that, you know, that, that happens just in a day it's, it's a lifetime process that the Lord is bringing us through.
Tony: How do you know what the next step in the process is? Because I think that there are probably some people listening who have walked with Christ for a while. And w we always say that, you know, that our podcast is all about reclaiming good practices for faith. And we want people to move. Right. And so maybe somebody has been practicing for a while.
How did they, how, how they know it's time to go to the next step. And maybe it's a, maybe it's a different type of devotional, maybe it's disciple-making what's how do you, how do you know when it's time to like, Hey, I'm ready for the next part of the process.
John: I think for me, what I've noticed is that if my conscience is clear, I hear the voice of God more clearly.
So if there's, yeah, if I'm meaning, like if I'm trying to hold back some element of my life from God, I don't think I hear his voice as clearly as when I'm just saying Lord. Yeah. Like my life is an open book. I don't want to hold anything back from you. I don't want to, you know, nurture my favorite areas of sin.
I want to, I want to cast these things out of my life. I'm going to crucify these things and I just want to live in your presence and not hold anything back from you. And then, you know, scripture encourages us to be people who try and like try and understand the will of God. And I think. It's very hard for me to understand the will of God when I'm in the process of ignoring his voice.
So if, if he's very obviously telling me, Hey, this doesn't belong in your life or this doesn't belong in your life. And it's so clear, and I don't even have to have an expert knowledge of scripture to know it. And yet I'm still inviting certain things into my life, but then saying to myself, Lord, why don't I understand you.
Well, I think the reason we sometimes struggle to understand the will of God is we're not really practicing, listening to him on obvious things. So there are obvious things that he's saying, Hey, like, you know, treat your spouse this way or live your life this way, or, or honor me in this way. And we're like, nah, I think I'll just do my own thing.
And it's like, all right, well, if you're going to do your own thing and really not even listen to my voice on very obvious things, then don't expect to have clarity about deeper aspects of my willfulness. Until you start working through the obvious stuff. And so I, you know, I know for me, One of the big changes the Lord asked me to make back in 2008 was to kind of uproot my family and moved to Southeast Pennsylvania and to plant a church.
And and I was convinced that I was, that the Lord was impressing this desire upon mine. And and I submitted that over to him and I felt like I was, I was hearing what he wanted me to do. My wife felt the same way. We also asked some other people to kind of chime in on this people that we trusted people who were walking with the Lord who had a strong prayer life and people who would speak honestly to us.
And we were able. We believe in that context to discern the will of God. He gave us great peace about it, but I don't think I would've heard him very clearly if that was the season of my life. And I've had several seasons of my life where I've run from the Lord instead of running to him. But if I was running from him, I don't think I would have been able to discern what he was asking me to do.
I think I would have had other work I had to do first, you know, issues I needed to submit over to him. And so I always say the way I say it to my kids is. If your conscience is clear, you have nothing to fear, right? If your conscience is clear, there's nothing to be afraid of. Like just live your life as an open book before the Lord.
If he tells you to go in a direction, just say yes. And if he tells you to stop, then just stop. Just listen to the counsel that he gives us in his word, listen to the counsel of the holy spirit. As he speaks to our hearts. And we'll be able to discern his will and figure out those next steps all along the way.
Sometimes he'll reveal something to us. As we're reading scripture, sometimes he'll reveal something to us in prayer, and sometimes he'll put someone in your life who has just the right thing to say at the right time. And you'll realize the Lord put you here for me to hear that, because now that gives me clarity on the next thing I'm supposed to do.
Tony: Yeah. I kind of was thinking about man, what are, what are some of the obvious things that that we let hearing God's voice? For me, I was thinking, you know, a gluttony lust thinking like the big, the, you know, the big, the big ones, or is it, is it also kindness or, you know, how do you, how do you.
John: Like w like, which yeah.
Tony: Samples some examples of what obvious barriers are. That's what I was trying to think of. Like, oh, that's clearly a barrier to God, but yet also the different now it feels like sometimes what was once obvious is not always obvious.
John: Yeah. Yeah. You're right. The, yeah, I think You know, for us as believers, we have the benefit of the internal presence of the holy spirit and he convicts our hearts and he convicts our minds.
And so, so that, that helps makes things, make things obvious. You know, I think also if we're in fellowship with other believers who we give permission to speak into our lives, that that can make things obvious too. And, you know, the, the, the people we surround ourselves with are going to have a big impact Ultimately, you know, our understanding of ourselves and and what actually influences us.
But another thing that I think we really need to really wrestle with is. Maybe kind of in line with our ambitions or our aspirations. So I think it's very easy for us at time to adopt worldly ambitions and worldly aspirations and not realize that they kind of have a worldly metric to it. That's getting in the way of us understanding the Lord.
Fully. And I'll give you an example that actually kind of comes up from another pastor that I know, and I'll be very anonymous about it, but it kind of, it really stands out to me. So our church building is not large. Like it's not, it's not a large building. We've kind of maxed out the capacity for it. And we were always talking about, you know, what can we do to either utilize this space better?
Or maybe even find additional space because, you know, w we really. Kind of, we've kind of maxed it out at this point. And there's another pastor in this area here who always seems to bring up the fact that our church building is not very large. Like, he'll always say something to me about like, oh, that, that building it's it's so it's so cute.
Like it's like, and I, you know, say things like, and I think are you trying to insult me? And recently I was having lunch with my wife and and you know, the, that pastor and his wife actually, you know, walked by and said Hey, and he introduced me to his wife and she said, oh, isn't that? Doesn't he pastor that at that really cute building that, you know, like, and it felt very patronizing to me.
And I thought, oh my goodness. I thought, why? Like, why do you always make fun of the size of our church building? And, but to me, like, that's a subtle thing that, that, that actually feels a bit worldly to me. And what I mean by that is like, like, so is it not a real church? If it doesn't have, you know, like this gigantic campus, is it not a real church?
If it doesn't have a. You know, like cell towers coming out of the, out of the steeple because it just reaches to the heavens and the cell phone companies want to rent space from it. Cause you know, like I, I just think to myself, you know, we so often we just adopt worldly metrics and we think, okay, it can only be good if.
Big. It can only be good if there's a whole bunch of numbers there, it can only be good if it pays well. Or like you just look at this and you think, all right, have we just adopted the world's value system as our own, instead of saying, Lord, what are you accomplishing? And does this fit with your overall plan?
Is this part of your overall plan? Could we be content with what you're doing right here in our midst? And so I, I know for me, one of the things I keep asking myself, Has the world's value system crept into what I value and I can, I think it can even sneak out and just like little things like that, where you have, where you have pastors trying to be polite to one another, but you know, you have one saying, oh, you're, you know, it'd be nice if your building was a little bit larger, like ours, but you know, it's not, so that's fine.
Your building can be fun-size.
Tony: Oh my God. No, I'm really surprised how many emotions that evoked that whole conversation of Oakton me because I really, you know, it's just, yeah. Praise the Lord.
So, so battling back, good things to say to yourself, right? Like to, to talk to yourself in a way. And that's, that's kind of the basis of the devotional. What. Do kind of statements, affirmations, beliefs. Do you, do you have a system that you do on a daily basis? I mean, obviously Tinel's kind of 31 days of, of doing it every day, building that repetition muscle.
But do you have a couple of go tos that you wouldn't mind sharing with us that you like may, and those are the ones that I absolutely.
John: So, you know, you can see kind of a list of these early in, in the book. You know, some of the things that are, that are listed there, but one of the ones that, that really connects with me, I mentioned it on day two of, of of the book is this idea of walking by faith rather than by.
To experience, greater joy. And one of the things that the Lord has been teaching me over time is the idea that I don't need to see every last detail on day one. I just, I can trust him for what he's going to do. And if I just walk by faith he's going to show me the things that he needs me to see. I mentioned a story in the book.
Really kind of got my attention just from my pastoral standpoint. There was a young man. He was a college student who used to attend our worship service. And legally he was blind. I don't know how much he could see. I don't think he could really see anything. And so he, you know, someone would drive him to church, but he also had a seeing eye dog.
And it was really cool when he would he attended our worship services for a couple of years while he was a college student. And every Sunday, as I would preach, I would see him sitting there, but under his seat was his dog and I got to. You know, and that dog would look directly at me and pay attention to my sermon sometimes better than some adults would.
And I just enjoy it every time I looked over in that section, I would see that dog just looking at me while I preach. And I thought, what a nice dog, it's just such a polite dog. And, and every time I interacted with that young man, He didn't complain. He didn't whine about, you know, the things that he was wrestling with or the things that he was dealing with.
He didn't, he wasn't constantly focused on lack of eyesight or anything like that. It was very obvious that he had the joy of the Lord and in a physical sense, it was a reminder. The site is not what brings us joy. Wow. And in this world, we want to see everything ahead of time. We want to, we, we don't really want to even believe things that we don't see.
And yet when you look at scripture, you know, we're reminded particularly in the opening verse of, of Hebrews 11, where it reminds us that that faith is being confident of things that we can't even see yet. And so that's the type of thing that the Lord. Has really connected with my heart on, in, in relation to a lot of different areas.
Because I I've realized I can trust him for things. I can't see. I can trust him for things that I haven't seen yet. And many of these things all eventually see in eternity, but I haven't seen them yet. And yet I have peace about it. I can trust in him. And so that's one of the things that I repeat to myself regularly that I can trust the Lord for the things I haven't yet.
Tony: Yeah, no, I love that. Do you think looking by faith part, just really, really, I love the imagery of it. That's that's really solid images there. A second one.
John: I think one that, that really helps me to, and it would probably be something that connects with you in your role too. But when you get, when you get up to day 22 there, we focus on praying for those who have intentionally hurt you.
And I, I'm just amazed and maybe you've noticed this too, you know, I've, so I've been pastoring now for 24 years and. I never. Like felt like I, I really had enemies or anything like that before becoming a pastor. And then when I became a pastor, I realized there are people that set it's like, they think it's their mission in life to just set themselves against you or make your life difficult or criticize you or whatever it may be.
And I think, why do people feel like they need to do that? I mean, do other people in their professions have to deal with this so frequently too? Maybe some of them do. I don't know, I haven't done other people's jobs. I just know that in mind, there are people that at times it's not even that they're casually trying to hurt you.
It's like they intentionally try and hurt you. And, and I I've wondered to myself, how am I supposed to respond to this without losing heart? And one of the things the Lord's reminded me. Is to just keep those people in prayer. It's hard to develop bitterness in your heart toward those that are hurting you.
When you've been regularly praying that the Lord would bless them or that the Lord would open their eyes to see how they impact other people's lives. And and that's something, you know, that the, that the Lord's really been you know, just showing me and teaching me. And it's very helpful and it, and it makes it quite a bit easier to forgive offenses.
If you, if you could just get to the spot where you realize, look, I'm not perfect. I know I goof up stuff all the time. I'm not even going to try and portray myself as perfect. My sufficiency is in Christ. But just as I need mercy from Jesus, I need to show you mercy as well. Even if you've offended me deeply.
So as a recipient of mercy, I'm going to reflect mercy back and I'm going to try my best as the holy spirit empowers me not to let hurtful things destroy me or discourage me beyond repair.
Tony: Man, as you were talking, I, I th the, the phrase from scripture came to me, those who have ears, let them hear. Yeah message.
I think John I'm so appreciative of your time today. We'll move closer to Jesus. I know that my my friends are going to want to follow you all over the social media and know where to pick a place, to start to learn everything about your menu.
John: The best place to go is to just hop over to my website.
My website is desire jesus.com and@desirejesus.com. They'll find the books, the podcasts, the blogs just a variety of things there that I hope will encourage them in their walk with.
Tony: Yeah, your first 10 books were all desired. Jesus devotionals. Right? Am I.
John: It's yeah, there's a whole collection of them.
There's monthly versions, but then eventually I turned it into a 365 day version of it and and yeah, that's something I I've really, and, and one of my podcasts daily devotions with pastor John is based on those devotions. That's where the content of that podcast.
Tony: Oh, I love that. Love that. Okay.
Last question. I always love to ask people. It's an advice question you have to give. I said, I'm going to take you back to the day that you knew that you recalled to go into the church planting arena, kind to write books, and you were going to kind of do this ministry in a different way than, than others.
If you could go back and talk to that younger version of yourself, what's the one piece of advice you'd give.
John: Am I allowed to break your rule and give myself two pieces of advice? People break it. Actually, those people break it. I just wanted to ask permission first, so I appreciate it. So rule number one, a would be.
Commit to a weekly date night with your wife and and don't wait until you guys feel distant before you make that part of your routine. So that's something my wife and I commit to now, and it's like, it's one of our favorite things in the course of a week. It's just this lovely time where we have the chance to go out, to eat and walk around.
Then we get ice cream together and just hang out for a group of hours and you know, it's great because at this point, our kids are old enough. We don't have to worry about babysitters. So that part, I wish I committed. Excuse me. I wish I committed to that earlier. And a one B would be don't take on anything.
It took us a long time to live a debt-free lifestyle. But I got to tell you, you can be very nimble when you don't have debt. And I used to have all kinds of debt. I used to think it was no big deal. And then I realized that gets in the way sometimes. Have you been able to say yes to the things that God wants you to do because you're limited by some of those obligations.
And so we, we worked real hard for a long time. Every source of debt, including our mortgage and we've purposed in our hearts. We're not taking on debt ever again because it gets in the way of us being able to do what God wants us to do. So no more debt we're done with it. That would be one. I love that.
Tony: Love that. Okay. Cause you're in my wheelhouse now. So theology for the church too. Don't take on any debt, correct?
John: No debt for the church. No debt for us. You know, we don't borrow money.
Tony: That's good. That's so good. I think more people need to hear that. Hey, perhaps John, thank you so much for being generous, man.
I appreciate it. I really do appreciate your heart and your time today. So good. And I just want to encourage everyone to go out and pick up his new book dwell on these things available anywhere books, his website, desire. jesus.com. Thank you so much.
John: Thanks. Like
Tony: I said, what an incredible conversation with John, we are so blessed by his wisdom and his heart and all the things that he has to add to our life and to help us follow Jesus a little bit more closely.
My, I think my favorite part is asking that question, does this aligned with the gospel, such a good question and important question for all of us as we wrestle and what it means to follow Jesus as always, I'm thankful for all of you and for the ability to connect and the opportunity that we have to share with each other and reclaiming good practices for faith in life.
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