#97: Allen Arnold: Chaos Can't
Allen Arnold has a message for you: Chaos doesn't get to dictate your life when you are anchored to an amazing God. In this new resource, Allen explores the role of chaos in your life and how this chaotic season can be an absolute gift!
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Full Transcript EP. 97 Allen Arnold
Tony: Welcome back to the reclamation podcast, where our goal is to help you reclaim good practices for faith and life. My name is Tony and today is episode 97 of the podcast, and I'm so excited to sit down with author Alan Arnold Alan's new project chaos. Can't gives us an opportunity to look and define.
Chaos. Right. How, how do we deal with the heaviness of the world? What does God have to say about inviting us into intimacy through the scripture? I love the way he talks about expectancy and wonder and asking God to show me something today. So this is going to be such a good conversation, especially as we begin to look and pray and think about what life after COVID looks like as always the best compliment you can give us is to share this episode with a friend.
And while you're here, go ahead and hit that subscribe button. To make sure you don't miss any future episodes. And as always, if you can leave us a rating or review on iTunes, it does so much to get the word out. Thank you guys so much for being in this community with us. And if you want to take a look at the full transcripts, you can find them on reclamation podcast.com.
We've got a whole plethora of resources there, and a little bit about me and. As always love to connect with you on Instagram at TW melts. So without any further ado, here's my conversation with Allen Arnold. Hey everybody. Welcome back to the podcast. I'm so excited to have today. Author speaker, and a nonprofit executive Allen Arnold here, Alan, how are you?
Allen: I'm good, Tony. Thanks for letting me be a part of the conversation today.
Tony: Hey, thank you so much for being here. And you've got a brand new resource out towards the end of 2020 called chaos Kant. And And the first question I was dying to ask you is, did you know that the world was going to be in so much chaos when you wrote the book when you started dreaming of this book?
Allen: Well, so when I first started teaching on it, no, which was about three years ago. And God had me in this unique spot where I was speaking to people around the country. Outside of the ministry I work at as well as within it. And what I was doing that about three years ago, he shifted me to a topic of how do you navigate the chaos in your world?
And at the time I thought, wow, that's most people. I never even hear the word chaos when I'm in conversations, but okay. And so that started a teaching of about twice a week, every week for the last three years. And then. Last March or April when things started going crazy in our country with the virus, with social unrest, with the presidential election and politics I just found my heart tanking and that's when God nudged me and said what I've been taking you through in terms of your teaching.
The last three years now is the time for a book on that. And that ended up being a huge rescue to my own heart because man, the heaviness of the world, the nightly news, the constant change, the constant stress, the constant just unrest caused me to realize I don't have a good antidote for chaos when it's coming so frequently.
Like if it's once in a blue moon, I'm okay. And my wife even said, Tony, she know, she said, Alan, you're really good when things are calm, but when things get chaotic, you tend to become more chaotic yourself in your response. And so nobody knows it's like our spouses, right. And that helped me. She said that in love, but that got me on a journey.
Of how do I live chaos free in a world of chaos? I believe God has told us as possible. I believe he's shown us how, but I was not doing it well at all. And I'm guessing a lot of listeners would feel the same way. And so I started exploration. The book is a journey of how do we stay in shaking and shaking world.
Tony: Yeah. So one of the questions I always love to ask people is about hearing from God. I mean, you obviously were teaching and you were already in the world. And so you've got this relationship with God. How do you know that God's like, Alan, you should definitely write this book or versus, you know, maybe you just ate a bad burrito or something.
Allen: Well, here's why that's a great question. And, and, and really it is the foundation of what we're going to talk about because I believe. God invites us as his sons and daughters. He's our father, we're his sons and daughters into an intimate, conversational, regular walk with him where we are actively hearing his voice within our heart.
Not out loud, not to booming cloud, but we learned, you know, he says clearly in scripture, Yeah, Jesus says my sheep hear my voice. And, and the invitation through all of the old Testament stories is God is an active, engaged speaking father. And so somehow the church I believe overall has lost this and they think.
Well, you know, yeah. We, we know God's will by reading scripture. That's true. We do. We get to know God through scripture, but scripture itself is what invites us into intimacy with God. And so the very thing we're looking at is example after example of example, of how men and women. Hear God's voice and walk with him.
And so it's fascinating. I think a shift in your life when you start being able to ask God questions and know that still small voice inside of you, that's his, by the way, you also over time, start to recognize the enemy's voice. So when you start to hear things, thoughts in your mind that voice in your ear that says.
Just give it up. It's too much. You're a loser. It's too late for you. Your dreams are too big. Whatever that voice is, will you start to distinguish between the two as well and go, that's not God, that's not his voice. And so it's an amazing adventure in that best something you obviously get better at over time, like learning to play the guitar, learning an art form, learning to cook learning.
The voice of God is something you have to desire and practice. And step into and, and be patient with, but over time it has been a rescue. And I would say every day now it's, it's not this random occurrence, but every day it's okay. God, what do you have for me today? Or what's an advanced word, or should I go or not go, or should I take this invitation or not?
Or should we as a family do this or not do this? And. And to not have that access to the father, that intimacy, I don't know how Christians get by in the day without that, because it's the most beautiful part of the relationship to me is the relationship.
Tony: Yeah, how do, how do we move? I think that there are a lot of people listening right now who, who are actively engaging scripture and they're reading it probably, you know, at least a couple of times a week.
How do we move? I love the way you said that scripture invites us into intimacy. How do we move from just information to intimacy?
Allen: Right. Well, there's a great book. And this book, before I joined the ministry, I worked full-time at now. Before I joined it, I was a big believer in what they were doing. And the book is called walking with God.
And it's from the founder of wild at heart, John Eldridge. He wrote wild at heart, the book, any others, but walking with God is kind of one of those that a lot of people never discovered. And to me it was the most life-changing, but because that whole book was. Showing, how do you step into that? And so like Tony, the way you would start, I would, and this is what the book says.
And people can go in more depth than that book, but basically you can start by getting away to a place where there's not a lot of distraction, not a lot of things pulling at your attention, turn off your phone, turn off the stereo and just say, God, do you love me? And listen, and just listen. And, and the goal is not to fill in the blank with your thoughts of, well, of course, God loves me.
The goal is to hear within you, within your heart, his small voice, his voice, and you start to know, I mean, he knit us into existence. So we can hear his voice without an audible. We don't use our ears for that. We use our heart for that. And so if you hear, no, I don't love you. You're learning the voice of the enemy.
And if you hear, yes, I love you. Then you're learning the voice of God. So you start with really small questions you don't start with. Should I move across the country tomorrow? Or should I quit my job today? Small questions that are, do you love me? And what do you have to say to me? And then you build over time, like anything else, but yeah.
I encourage people to read the book. I encourage people to practice that. And the biggest thing is you have to believe God is not silent. He hasn't lost his voice. He wants to speak to you because if you absolutely believe, God will never speak to me. This is all. Woo. Are this other people, well, guess what?
You're probably going to have a really hard time hearing the voice of God because you're making agreements on the front end. It won't happen. It's not possible. I can't do it. I've never done it. And so let all those things fall to the wayside and just ask God, do you love me? Start there and it'll open up a technical or world.
Tony: Oh, I love that. And I, one of the things that I'm passionate about is helping people. See the awe and wonder of God, because I think we've lost a little bit of that. We've re you know, I love contemporary worship and I don't have any, any problems with that. We do contemporary worship here at our church, and yet at the same time, there is nothing more crazy than when God begins to speak into your life in a, in a palpable.
Way, and, and I believe, and I, and I think we see some of this in your, your writing is that it's a lot of it has to do with our daily disciplines. And one of the things I love to say around here is that if you're not dedicated to your disciplines, you'll be destroyed by your distractions.
Allen: That's good.
Tony: Thank you. I feel free to steal it and. W. So I guess I'm, I love to ask people who are hearing from God on a regular basis. What are your disciplines like? What's a day in the life of, of God, of the relationship between God and Allen.
Allen: Well, first of all, I would say, you know I get it right a lot and I blow it a lot.
And so there isn't this, isn't the path to perfection to me at the top of the mountain, looking down these nuggets of wisdom. I'm with you guys, I'm with the listeners, you know, on a journey. But the, but the average day is when this is what I think is really huge Tony to wake up. And before my feet hit the ground, before I reach for my phone.
Or any other distraction to just pause and go, father, what do you have for me today? And I'm not asking a question about myself. I'm not, I'm not saying Alan, what is your to-do list today? What is, what is my day going to be like, Oh yeah, I've got an eight o'clock meeting. I've got, I'm not saying that.
I'm saying, God, what do you have for me today? And so it's entering into the morning before my feet hit the ground. With an expectancy or a sense of wonder or, or Papa father, ABA, what do you have for me today and listening and, and the biggest part about hearing the voice of God? I think one of the key things, and I'm, I'm saying this, you know, kind of with a wink, but we have to shut up.
Yeah. Amen. Listen. Like we, most of our prayers are one way. God, I need this and I need this, I need this. And I know, can you do this? And I'm worried about these. And by the time we finish and walk away, we haven't. Listened at all, we've downloaded our to-do list to God or our desires. And that's fine, but to start with God, I want to listen.
What do you have for me today? And then be quiet and then listen. And, and a lot of times I'll hear a word or or I'll sense, Oh, this, this meeting is going to be way more important than I thought, or this conversation with my spouse. Is going to take priority today. And sometimes I don't hear anything and that's okay too.
But even in those moments, it aligns me too. This is not my day. This is God's day. And certainly my, I used to base my day, if it was good or bad on whether my to-do list got done. So if I go home at six o'clock at night, I was either in a really bad mood because there, my day was full of distractions. I didn't get to the gym.
I didn't get to read any of this book I wanted to, I didn't get to do the fun thing I wanted to, or dinner plans got canceled. It all happened. I thought it was a really good day. And the problem was, I didn't have to show up in any of that with the filter was just, did I get what I wanted done done.
Right. And so this starts the day. Differently with expectancy, not expectations, world of difference, expectancy versus expectations. So lose your expectations for how your day should go and go God unexpected for what you're up to. I don't know what that's going to be. And then go through the whole day, watching how the father aligns the rhythm of your day.
And then, and this is the second half and really important at the end of the day. When you put your head down. But before you go to sleep, go God, what is your interpretation of this day? Not my interpretation. My interpretation is a man might be. Well, the day stinks because I had a, I had a problem with one of my cars that I didn't expect.
I didn't have enough money to get that fixed. One of my teams is having problems and it was exhausting to talk through that or work through that. Relationally, this happened, my interpretation is I'm ready for this day to be over God's interpretation may be Alan. I'm working to shape you into the man.
I need you to be. And want you to be, and this day was a big step in that. So start with expectancy end in asking for God's interpretation and notice in both of those, the assumption is I can hear the voice of God because why ask for an interpretation if you're not going to hear anything and why be expectant, if you are trying to be a son or daughter to a father who will never talk to you.
So those two things I think are huge milestones.
Tony: Yeah, I love that. I love that idea about expectancy versus expectations. And I think it fits perfectly with this piece of writing because I, one of the things that I've, I've seen in the last year, and I'm sure you have too, is that, is that when our expectations get blown up, Chaos kind of erupts in.
So I was hoping that you might define define chaos for us and maybe I have a note kind of that chocolate taught you about chaos and, and maybe kind of intertwined all that together for us.
Allen: Yeah. That'll be fun. So most people, I think, kind of go along with the dictionary definition of chaos, which is.
Not untrue, but it's so basic. It's not very helpful. And that definition is a state of utter confusion or disorder. The problem is, and I say in the book like that describes me as a high school math student and a college student of most of my classes in math and science. I was in a state of utter confusion, but it wasn't chaos.
It was just I, my brain didn't get math and science very well. So I was like deer and a headlight. But that's not the type of chaos. I think that takes us out. Most days, what takes us out most days is a different kind of chaos or a different understanding. So I define it in the book as this chaos is a destructive fear-based force that prevents us from fully living.
It comes against us in intensely personal strikes. Meant to leave us empty and void. So a destructive fear-based force that comes at us in personal ways.
Tony: Well, and that sounds like some people I know.
Allen: Yeah, well, a lot of people, their rights and they've let chaos in, and that is they exhibit those things they create, you know, by speaking.
Or by just their presence, they bring fear into the room or they leave you feeling empty and void it. Doesn't originate with them. But I think that's what you're naming is a real, a reality of people who have let chaos into them. Then they breathe chaos and change the atmosphere in a negative way.
Tony: Yeah, absolutely.
Now tie, tie that into chocolate for me because I'm dying to know the connection. Yeah.
Allen: Okay. So in these times we could all probably use a little more laughter and for me, one way that I've really kind of, if I just want to unplug, I love the old, I love Lucy TV show and I'm talking about the one from the fifties with, you know, Lucy and Ethel black and white TV show.
But one of the most popular episodes of the whole series was the chocolate factory one. And what it is is whether you've never seen the series or know exactly what I'm talking about. Lucy and Ethel were best friends and middle-aged women, and they go to work at this chocolate factory and all they have to do.
On the slow moving conveyor belt is wrap each piece of chocolate, like a little piece of tophi wrap it and it moves on and they're done. And if they do they're successful well, so they start this job. They have these white hats and white lab coats, and they're like, man, this is a piece of cake. This is super easy.
And then it starts speeding up and Ethel looks at Lucy and says the column starts to go away and she goes, I think we're fighting a losing game because if one piece of chocolate goes through and wrap they're fired, so they start to panic and the, and the conveyor belt starts to go faster and then they hear the supervisor coming.
And so what do they do? Well, they start shoving the chocolate in their pockets and in their mouth. And in their hat and their hats drooping from too much chocolate and the supervisor comes out and looks around and it looks like they've done everything. Cause she doesn't see the hidden chocolate in their pockets and bulging out of their mouth and everything.
So then the supervisor just looks at, it, goes speed it up and walks out and they look at each other, like we are so hosed because we couldn't keep up before. And now we're toast. Well, that I think is the reason I say this in the book is I think it's an example of how we tend to deal with chaos rather than understand it and change it and not let it in.
We stuff it in our pocket. We pretend we're keeping up with things. The illusion is we're good. We're fine. And the reality is. We are overloaded, overwhelmed, and one minute away from everything imploding. And so I, and it's like, like Ethel said in the, in that little clip, we are fighting a losing game. If that's our approach to chaos, to just stuff it down, pretend everything's okay.
People ask us, you know, how's your day. Oh, it's fine. Yeah. It was good. And in the meantime, we're thinking we are overwhelmed to the point of things spilling out of our pockets out of our mouth, out of, out of our lives. And so the answer isn't to just kind of pretend it's all okay. Because CAS plays for keeps.
So what we have to do is realize one, how to be proactive, not reactive. And, and the good thing about that, Tony is we serve a God who does everything he can to prepare us if we will understand. And Jesus tells us in John 1633, you know, it's a, it's a very clear, direct passage. He says this is all one verse.
I have told you these things so that you may have peace. He's talking to his followers. So he's telling us, so why bees? And then the next word he says is in this world, you will have trouble. You could substitute chaos there, I think fairly. So imagine Jesus looks at you eye to eye and says, Hey, Tony, I'm going to tell you something.
So you'll have peace in this world. You're going to have a lot of trouble that feels like, wait, what, what? You're telling me this a lot of peace that I'll have trouble, but then he says, the reason why same verse take heart. Because I have overcome the world and he doesn't just mean in the past, in that moment in scripture, Jesus is eternal in Jesus is saying I have overcome everything that has been is or ever will be.
I have already overcome it on a spiritual realm on a spiritual way. And so if you walk with me, yeah, there's going to be trouble in this world. Do not be surprised. Quit letting it blindside you in this world. A lot of people used to say, I can't wait for 2020 to be over. You know, I heard that a lot in November and December and the problem is I get it.
I understand what they're saying, but look at the beginning of 2021 chaos, doesn't go away because the calendar shifts from December. To January in this world, we will have trouble and we're having a lot of trouble in this world now. So the answer isn't a trouble-free world. Don't put your hopes on that.
Nobody can promise you that, like in politics, nobody can promise you that in any kind of government way. Or any other way, but Jesus says, if you will come with me, I've overcome the world and I can help you be chaos free in a world of chaos. So that's the promise. We shouldn't be caught off guard and we should understand then how do we now navigate the chaos out there in the world, in, in the people around us, without letting ourselves become chaotic in the process.
Tony: Yeah. So one of the things that I think I'm hearing in this is that chaos by itself is it is always going to be there. There's always going to be some version of chaos in the world. One of the things I'd love to hear your thoughts on is, is why do some things bother me more than other things chaotically like, like I don't have, I'm not a road, you know, a road rage driver, but when my wife.
Is driving. She will sometimes yell at cars in front of her and it feels like chaos to me. Like I'm not bothered by the car, but my wife getting upset. It's like, you know, it's like, how, what can I do to help you here? Because I don't understand why you're yelling at the car that can't hear you. Right. I mean, that's neither here nor there.
But all that to say is some chaos cut to the core of who we are and other chaos seemingly roll off of our back.
Allen: Well, I think that's because I would say a lot of times chaos is very different for each of us in terms of what triggers us, what sets us off, what shuts us down. And it's because where does chaos come from?
Like chaos is not this random, generic thing that just is out there and it affects everybody equally. Chaos builds personal. I believe Tony because it is personal. I believe it's personal because I believe it's the number one weapon the enemy uses against us. So the enemy is a, is if nothing else is a student of how to take people out of how to shut them down of how to get them.
Ultimately, his goal is to sever the relationship between us and God. I mean, and that's his number one goal, I think. And he uses gas designed and almost custom ways to take you out that wouldn't take me out and the waste to take me out. Wouldn't take the listener out or one of our spouses out. And so you have to realize the enemy is trying to kill, steal and destroy, and he will do whatever he can to each of us.
He knows our buttons really well. And so we have to be. Proactive, because if we sit there through a day and the very things that really get under your skin, or that really shut you down happen, and we kind of go through, run aware, we're, we're going to get taken out. And so. We have to realize chaos comes from the enemy Mo now we can create our own chaos.
You know, if somebody does amen. Guilty, so guilty letting your I'm not letting us off the hook. But what I'm saying is a lot of chaos in this world. Is trying to shut our heart down is trying to take our hope away, kill steal, and destroy. The enemy comes to kill steal and destroy. And that's he does that through chaos.
So we have to know one don't let us surprise us too. It's not just us, although we can do some dumb things. It's not just us. We have an enemy throwing chaos at us. And three, we don't have to let it in anymore than in the book I talk about recently, I went through a car wash and forgot to roll my windows up and all of the way all of them, well, it's a truck, so it was the front two windows.
And so I do have a back seat, but all of the things that look pretty cool. If you're going through the car wash with the windows up, the lights, the foam. You know, the squirting water when it's coming at your face, not fun, not cool. And not the way I wanted to have a shower that morning. You know, it's a great principle.
We do that with chaos all the time. Like we don't roll up our own windows. We don't secure our heart. We give chaos access to our hearts because we leave the windows and doors open. And so instead of guarding our heart, Proverbs four 23 above all else, we don't even pay attention to what's coming in. And the outside chaos, the enemy throws at us gets in, and then, you know, it's hard to overcome something that you're becoming more like.
So you want to overcome chaos, but you're becoming more chaotic. You're fighting back to the chocolate factory, a losing game. You have to not let it in guard your heart. And then the really cool part starts because everything I've said up to this point, you know, don't be surprised by it. Understand what's really going on with the enemy.
Don't let it in. That's like one Oh one. If you can do those things, the really cool part of the adventure starts, which is now how do we, when we're not chaotic and Cass, isn't getting in us and we understand what's happening now, how do we go into our world? Our realm of authority, our home, our relationship with our kids, with our coworkers, with our church, with our community, and actually change the environment.
From chaos to beauty in life in order. And so that's, that's the goal, but it's kind of like, you have to get your car trip ready before you can take a trip. Your car is trip ready. You don't just lock it in the garage. You want to go and explore. And so when you do these early things, you can then be chaos free and enter into the world of casts that actually start changing the chaos into beauty life in order.
And that's, that's the exciting part. Like that's the first part, get you ready. The second part gives you and everybody around you more alive. Yeah.
Tony: So, so teach us, come on, pastor, teach us how to, how do we roll up our window? How do we like prevent chaos from seeping into the inner inner workings of our monologue?
And what does that yeah, I'm, I'm loving it.
Allen: Well, so the first, you know, to the first part of not letting it in. If somebody was trying to get through your front door of your house, that you thought was going to want to destroy and pillage your home, hopefully you would have resistance. You would not let that person in.
You would be vigilant in guarding your entry to your home. And your heart is the same way. Well, how does the enemy tend to get in? Usually it's in the form of his lies that he's whispering to us. So. It's something like man, I, I, I just never can get my act together or it's kinda too late for me. Like I have these dreams, but in the world today, forget it.
Like who's going to listen to this podcast or who's going to read this book or who's. Who's going to want what I have to offer. It's too light for me. I'm always in debt. I'll never get out of debt. I, I never hear the voice of God. So I guess I never will. All of these things that we let into our hearts start to make us more chaotic.
And here's why, because it lets fear in and any decision or any choice we make. I believe Tony is either fear or love based. Any decision. If you make a hundred decisions a day, you could label each of those love-based fear-based fear-based love-based love-based fear-based and you could go through it.
And the reason I think people don't understand that is the fear-based decisions can look really different, meaning you can be raging and fear-based, you can be shut down and fear-based. You can be passive and for your base, aggressive and base offended for your base. So a hundred people in a room can look very different, but if you get to the foundation they're operating from fear, hate comes from fear.
Rage comes from fear being shut down and checked out is fear-based. And so either we're, if we were a love-based and when we started operating out of a fear base, Well, it's the gateway for chaos to come inside of us because Jesus tells us don't fear. Don't be anxious for nothing. And, and we kind of hear that and go, yeah.
Right. Anxious for nothing. Well, what he really means is don't be anxious unless things are crazy. And then of course, who wouldn't be anxious or who wouldn't be fearful. And we try to rationalize the words when actually Jesus has never been fearful. God's never been fearful. The Holy Spirit's never been fearful.
And so somehow as sons and daughters, we had decided, yeah, but in this world, of course, we're going to have fear and of course we're going to be anxious and that's simply not what the invitation is. So that's how not to let it in, I think is to go, this is a fearful thought. This is an anxious thought.
This is a scarcity thought. I feel like I'm going to win and you're going to lose, or you're going to win and I'm going to lose. So I've got a win. If there's one roll of toilet paper at the store reaching for it, I am, I'm going for it, man. Cause I'm getting it because I know I can't afford to be loving in that situation.
Like I got to look out for my own. And so that fear and anxiety. Is the doorway to chaos and we never win when we become more fearful.
Tony: Yeah. And I, I really hear what you're saying that a lot of it like it's, it's, you're not saying, Hey, don't, don't be competitive. Don't, don't be yourself. Just be it in the most loving way possible.
If there's one roll of toilet paper left, figure out the most loving thing to do here, you know, and really, instead of just grabbing it and elbowing the guy out of the way.
Allen: Right or cutting people off in traffic or whatever the thing may be. You know, when you say be yourself, I would say maybe a different way to say that is be the truest you, that God made you to be.
But the goal is to be transformed.
Cause we tend to think our personality is who we are. When a lot of times, our personality just reflects a really broken person who has strive their whole life, or who has looked for validation in the wrong ways, their whole life.
And so a lot of times people go, well, that's just me. And it's like, well, I get that, how you're operating, but is that, are you saying that's how God created you to be, are you saying over time? That's how you've dealt with life. And if it's how you've dealt with life from a broken place. Well, let's go for wholeness.
Let's not just proclaiming you.
Tony: Well, and back to what you said earlier, right? It's hard to overcome something that you are becoming more alike, you know, and I think that that happens in our brokenness all the time is that we let the brokenness in, we hold onto the brokenness as our identity. And now all of a sudden the brokenness is.
Is who we are. And we paraded around, like, it's a victory badge instead of lacking letting Jesus make us new. Yeah.
Allen: Right. And I mean, I was that way for, I mean, I'm not pointing at the listener or I, I mean, I was super successful in my mid twenties, thirties. I was a hard driving make it happen, guy. I had a fortune cookie saying taped to my desk that said, The one who says it can't be done should get out of the way of the one doing it.
And I, and I, and I didn't think I was the one saying it couldn't be done. I was the guy saying, get out of my way, I'll make it happen. And I did on a human level in crazy ways and kept getting promoted. And my bosses loved me because I was the, make it happen, guy, the bull in the China shop. But at the end of the day, it was my brokenness.
Like, I felt like. I had to do more, to be more. And so every personality test I took during that time said hard driving, make it happen, dominant alpha. And so I was like, yeah, like that's who right. That's who I am. And the test verify it validated when the reality was the tests were just measuring my brokenness.
So like yep. That's, I'm broken. And the test is picking that up because of my answers. But that doesn't mean I embrace my brokenness. It says the better choice is to go God, did you design me to be, you don't design me to be broken and you don't design me to look validation from the things I do and my achievements and milestones rather than intimacy with you as a son.
So, you know, Who has got inviting us to be well, it's hard to know in the chaos, if we're trapped in chaos and all we're doing is if you're in the middle of a storm, you're just trying to survive. You're not asking the deeper questions. And so we need to get to a point where we can get away from the storm and get a realistic look at who did God make me to be?
And how does God deal with chaos and, and Tony, that was a big breakthrough for me. When I was writing the book is. I don't need to know more how I dealt with chaos because it wasn't working. You know, it was spinning me up, shutting me down, making more chaotic. I didn't have the answers. And so rather than keep asking other people how to deal with chaos, I was like, God, Shirley has a way he wants us to know how to live.
And Jesus does. And the Holy spirit does. So why don't we start there? Instead of excusing ourselves or letting ourselves off the hook because of our personality. And that, that was a huge eye opener for me. And if you want to talk about that, we can.
Tony: No, I do. I, yes. That's absolutely where I want to go next is how does, how does God deal with the chaos?
And, well, before we get to that, maybe how did you know that you were broken?
Allen: I knew I was broken because my heart was shutting down. I was, I was losing hope. I looked around and I remember having this thought, which I'm not saying by the way is a good thought, but I'm just saying it was what I was thinking.
I found myself when the world was so like, I'd look at anything in the news, any re any development. Of the outrage, the offense, everything in the world. And I just found myself thinking, I get why God flooded the earth. Like we're all idiots, humanity. I can't find anybody who is just like everybody's offended or irritated or shut down or dysfunctional or hopeless.
And I get why God looks at that and goes, Oh my gosh, like just. Clear the game board and start over now that I'm not, again, I'm not saying that was a healthy thought, but it was just where I was at. When I looked at myself or others, I was disappointed in me and I was disappointed in humanity.
Tony: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a safe measuring stick for all of us.
Right. If, if we would rather wipe out the planet, then deal with what's going on inside of us, you may have let chaos in.
Allen: Right. And, and I mean, This world is broken and they're craziness, but, but that was, I was just feeling hopeless. I didn't want to wipe it out, but I was like, God, if you're done with this whole thing, like I get it.
And, and so that was my, and I'll tell you another thing. I was looking for relief. I was looking for things besides God to give me relief, go through a hard day, you know, during the pandemic 2020. There were months and months of working from home. So there was only screen interaction and there wasn't face-to-face with coworkers and, and we couldn't do the live events of our ministry and we couldn't sit down and just hang out and talk and in a face-to-face way.
And so I found myself by the end of the day, like, I just want to check out, I want to binge on a Netflix series. I want to. I don't want to talk to, you know, like my family tonight, I'm just burnt out. You know, why I was looking for relief, but I wasn't looking necessarily for God. It was just like, I'm wiped out.
What can bring me momentary joy, whether that's a beer, whether that's a pizza, whether that's a bingeing on a TV series. Whatever it is, just give me relief and that I knew that wasn't healthy. And, and what I'm describing, I think is 99.9% of the population, which is when they're burnout and worn out, they look for, we look for relief and I think God says, I'd rather offer you restoration.
I'd rather make you whole. And so that's how I knew. That's how I knew this is not a trajectory I want to be on. I love God. I love my family, but my heart is shutting down. And so that's what led to the book. And when I wrote the book, I taught on these topics for about three years, but the book, normally a book normally takes about six to nine months to write and go through the editing process.
This book took 10 weeks. Wow. That's. For people who aren't in the publishing world that may sound 10 weeks may sound like a decent time, but it's like the it's like some people take 10 weeks to write a blog post. And I mean, this was, so it came quickly. The birthing came quickly because I felt God saying, this is not just for you, Alan.
This is for everyone. Like this is, this can be a rescue. To your heart and other's heart. If you'll get this out and walk with me in the creation of it. And the first question I had for God was, well, okay, God, if I'm dealing with chaos wrong, is there anything in scripture about how to overcome chaos?
Because if there is I've missed it or I've not understood it, I've passed it by. And it was so cool because God said. Why don't you start at Genesis one, one. Well, okay. And so I go into the very first verse of the very first book in the beginning, God created, we all know that verse created the heavens in the earth.
So God is telling us first verse of the whole Bible I'm creator. And I create, but it was Genesis one, two, where I realized this is the first lesson God is teaching us. As our father, you know, the very first lesson you would teach somebody as a coach, as a father, as if you're the Sage and you have an apprentice, the very first lesson you teach matters, and you're not going to teach something meaningless with the very first moment we'll in Genesis one, two, what is the first lesson?
God teaches us this, this verse where it says God's spirit goes into the empty void, this murky darkness. And we see the spirit hover over it. And then in Genesis one, three, the first day of creation. So another words, the first lesson God shows us is because Hebrew scholars say in Genesis one, two that's.
God's spirit in the empty void, which is chaos. God does not hide from chaos. He doesn't wait it out. He doesn't fear it. He doesn't Trimble. He doesn't go well, that's just life there's, you know, deal with it. Guys get used to it. What he says is through his actions, I am a creator and I am going to step into the empty void.
And bring beauty life and order where there was disorder and emptiness and hopelessness. And I believe Tony that he tells us that shows us that the very first lesson of all of scripture, because he knows you're going to face chaos too. And so we can't create oceans and stallions and mountains and humanity like he did in his creation.
He did the most stunning creation that the world was not even the world before that came, you know? And so he creates all of this. Well, our invitation isn't to create an ocean or a stallion or a hummingbird, but our invitation is change the empty void places in your life. The chaos in your life bring beauty life in order into those places, through your presence.
And you're gifting your talents, your passions. And so we don't just have to learn how not to let chaos in that's that's one Oh one. But the big thing that I want your listeners to hear is, Hey, if you want to, if you want to do some good practices, if you want to have like some disciplines or some practices that will lead to healthy relationships with God and with others.
Well, this is one of the top of the list. It's like, God empowers you in your realm of authority to change the atmosphere for good, to bring beauty life in order to your children, to your spouse, to your neighborhood, to your church, to your office, through your podcast, through whatever it is you do. That's the invitation.
And so many times, you know, if we don't know this, the average response I think is. Well, in these Caddick times, I'm just going to hunker down and survive and I'll start dreaming, or I'll start doing things once the chaos passes and God is saying, no, no, no, actually your gifting and your presence are part of what can change.
So don't shut down until the chaos goes, because guess what? In this world, you will have trouble and chaos. Don't try to wait it out. Step in. And then bring beauty in life in order from the disorder in your realm and what we all do that it's kind of like in Lord of the rings, you know, where they have those different kind of bonfires raising up, we see toward the end of the movie.
With these lights spreading realm. Well, when you do it, when I do it, when every listener does it in and of itself, it's not that impressive, perhaps, you know, great. Alan wrote a book. Great. Tony has a podcast. Great. So-so has a bakery. Great. So-and-so's a teacher. How much change can there really be? With any one of those things, that's, that's a lie of the enemy.
That's when we start to hear. And so we go, well, it's crazy times, I'm just going to pull out and try to survive and I'll get back to whatever later. And actually I think God is saying, this is why I've given you your dreams and your passions for a time such as this now. Don't let the chaos in. Don't be surprised.
And now enter into whether you're a stay at home. Mom or dad changed the atmosphere of your home, whether you're a CEO or whether you're a 20 year old in college, change the atmosphere of the classroom of the, of the boardroom. Like wherever you are, a barista, a florist, a gardener, a waiter, whatever you're doing now.
Change the atmosphere for good. And that pushes the chaos back and the enemy hates that. And so the enemy of course, is trying to cut us off at the knees. But when we understand the larger story and what our invitation is, you can see like, it changes how you approach your day, how you approach your life and hope starts to rise within us.
Tony: I love that. And I think in the book you call it B becoming an Asian of creativity, right. And that we have to fight off agents of chaos in order to become an agent of creativity. And w what a special call for us is. As, as Christ followers and as people who are exploring that relationship Christ is take whatever.
I mean, this is what I hear you saying, take whatever it is, you're really good at whatever it is you're really passionate about and create something, right. Because in that process of creation, we establish order and that fights off the chaos. Am I, am I, am I encapsulate? Right?
Allen: And, and create something could be.
Through our conversation. It doesn't have to be a tangible, yeah. We're not talking about like, well, your podcast is airwaves. Sure. Now, and over the air, it can be a conversation. So some people I've heard say, Hey, that's great for creatives. I'm not creative. Well, that's the first thing I would say is please don't say that because how could you not be creative if your father is the creator Genesis one, one.
Our father is a creator. You're his son or daughter. He breathes life into us. We have his DNA. So we may not know our creativity. We may not understand our gifting. We may feel like our job is not creative at all, but here's the thing. Your creativity may come through a hobby or through a volunteer position.
At a church or in a civic role. So it's, I'm not just saying it's your job that you get paid for. It could be, but your creativity could come out in the very things that make you come alive outside of your job. So don't limit, don't make an agreement, just like don't make an agreement. You can hear the voice of God.
Don't make an agreement that you're not creative, because guess what? Then. That's like the basketball player who says I can't make a difference in the game. Never goes in the game, sits on the bench and waits for somebody else to change the game, to win the game. You don't want to make an agreement. You don't have a role in helping diminish and counter the chaos through your creativity, because if you do, you're basically sitting on the sidelines.
Waiting for something to happen when God says, actually the Baton is with you, that you can't use it in your own strength. It's not all up to your brilliance or your strength, but when you enter into the chaos with me, father and son, father, and daughter, that amazing things can happen. So that's, that's the invitation of the book.
Tony: I love it. I love it. And I, and I think now more maybe than ever before, we need. Yeah, we need somebody to pick up the Baton. I just think it's, it's an important cry. And I know my listeners are going to want to follow you and learn more about this concept and hopefully your ministry will get back to doing live events and here really soon, what's the best way for them to follow you on the interwebs pick pick up a copy of the book, any additional resources they might want to dive into on, on becoming this Person who's who can fight off chaos.
Allen: Yes. Well, so two ways I would say the first is the books are really, if I could sit down with somebody and have one-on-one conversation, it would be about the content in the book. In fact, the chaos book, every chapter as you've seen is about a page two, maybe two pages, but I've tried to keep each chapter very short because when you're trying to overcome chaos, You don't need to feel like you're reading the dictionary
and so read chaos can't you can get it on Amazon. And then the first book I wrote is on intimacy with God and a roadmap for how to pursue your dreams with God. And it's called the story of width. W I T H. And it's written more as an allegory. But it's basically showing you, how do you step into. The things you love to do actively with God.
How do you hear his voice? How do you stay expected? The concept of expectancy and expectations? So those two books really are kind of the foundation of this message. But then I do have a website called with Allen, w I T H a L L E n.com. And it's really meant to be this place of beauty. Like where people can breathe easy and it it's a roadmap for how do you pursue it, what you love to do with God.
And so there's free videos, blogs, podcasts. And so people are like, I really want to understand that that's a great place to just sample some things. The books are a great way to enter into the message we've talked about today. And my main invitation to people is. Start start somewhere. If this is your interest, because if you just hear this and then go back to how you've been dealing with things, you're going to get the same results and, and God wants so much more from us.
And the book is chock full of scripture of why, what we're saying works, how to practice your gifting with God. Like. So you can be cast free in a world of chaos. The last scripture I'd leave people with is one that's in the front of the book and it's acts two 25 and the NLT translation says this. I see that the Lord is always with me.
I will not be shaken for. He is right. Yeah. Beside me. So are we not shaking? Not because we just, you know, stuff it down and pretend everything's okay. Are we try to just hunker down and get through it or are any of those things we're not shaken because God's right there with us. With us and he is the one who overcomes.
And so this is an invitation of what does that look like on any given Monday? So I I've loved talking to you about it. I hope readers will dive in deeper.
Tony: I love it for sure. Okay. Last question. I always love to ask people is an advice question. I like to take people back to a very specific moment in their life.
And in this case, I'm going to take you back to. The young man with the fortune cookie insert taped on the desk about the, basically you can do it. If you could go back there and give that young man one piece of advice, what would it be?
Allen: The advice would be, learn how to be assigned the invitation because I never knew, I knew the verse.
I knew I was the teacher of a really large Sunday school class. In a really large church during that very time that I was so driven, but here's the thing, Tony. I never knew what it really meant to know God as father and to be a son. And so I was living my whole life, trying to validate myself through what I did.
And ultimately it all imploded and it all was, well, it always will. Nobody gets through life, you know, like Atlas carrying the world on your shoulders and being the tough guy and the guy that just makes it happen. It's an illusion. It's it's we see it in movies, but it's not real. And so I would have told that me not in a hard way, a harsh way, but I would have said like, Alan it's.
Okay. Learn. God's inviting you to be a son, not to be this productivity machine, make it happen. Guide, tear up the fortune on your desk is not all up to you and start living as a son. You don't have to have all the answers. You don't have to make it happen. It's okay. And I, and that's ultimately what did happen, but man, I was in my.
I was in my early forties when that started to change and it started to change because I had a boss who was a really crusty kind of you know, I mean, he was a tough dude, but he had a good heart and he came to me one day and invited me to lunch. And he said, Alan, do you have a team of about 16, 17 people?
Do you know that every single one of them. They, they stay with you because you're successful, but they all think you're a complete jerk and he didn't use the word jerk. I'm sure. Yeah. No,
Tony: I can read between the lines on that one.
Allen: When you said, do you know that. And I honestly did not know that I, like, I thought they liked me because I was good at what I did, but I was pushing you, you know, you treat others, people's hearts.
Like you treat your own heart. And I was treating my heart so hard and I was treating them so hard and it was a real wake up call, sucker punch to the gut kind of thing, where I was like, is that the man I want to be. And the answer was no, but I had no idea how to change. And the way change happened was.
I started learning what it meant to be a son. And that's you know the problem though is even if I could magically appear back in time and have told the younger me that like, you know, you see movie scenes, people do that to themselves. They go back in time. Sure. Fortunately, I think I had to hit my breaking point and I think, you know, even if I had done that to myself, I think I would have kicked my.
New self out the door, get out of my way. I'm the guy making it happen. So God had to show me the end of myself before I could start becoming who he wanted me to be. And I'm so glad he did. I'm so glad I'm a different man today. Not a perfect man. I blow it, but there's nothing like daughter hood or son ship when it comes.
To our approach with God, he doesn't want, you know, I'll leave us with this. You can know a lot about God and not know God. And ultimately the invitation is to do life with God, not to do more things for God. And so I think that's one of the things that had been stolen from us. We as Christians do a lot for God and we don't even know him.
We we know about him. We can quote scripture, but we have zero intimacy with God. And that's the whole invitation of scripture. God didn't give a scripture just for us to memorize scripture. He gave a scripture as an invitation to intimacy and we miss it and I missed it until my early forties. And now I would, I would die for that.
Like I would never go back to just knowing a lot about God. I want to know him intimately.
Tony: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a, that's a good prayer for all of us. Alan, thank you so much for being so generous with your time today and with your writing and just praying that that this book continues to speak into the life of 2021 and, and and go, go pick up your copy right away for listen.
And I, I think it'll be good for you. So, Alan, thank you.
Allen: It's been good.
Tony: I absolutely love that conversation with Alan. I think chaos is such an interesting idea and chaos, please. Forgive keeps man. What a powerful reminder we have to choose. Do we want to be proactive or reactive? I think that there's really something to this and I hope Alan's conversation today is helpful to you as you continue on in your journey and battle with chaos in your own life.
Again please subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, share this episode with a friend and leave us a rating or review it. It does wonders to continue to, to honor what God is doing here in and through this platform. Thank you guys so much. And I look forward to connecting with you guys real soon.
