#98: Jeff Henderson: What are you FOR?
Jeff Henderson is a leader of leaders. He is a phenomenal communicator who specializes in asking questions that help organizations grow. In this episode of the podcast we discuss what it means to be FOR something. How do you know what you are for? And what happens when you are known by others for what you're for?
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EP. 98 Jeff Henderson
Tony: Welcome back to the Reclamation Podcast, where our goal is to help you reclaim good practices for faith and life. I'm Tony. And today is episode 98 of the podcast. I get to sit down with a pastor speaker and advocate. Jeff Henderson. Jeff is an incredible storyteller and speaker, and he talks all about his strategy for.
That's right for F O R what does it mean to be for a community? What does it mean to be for something, for what you believe and how that changes? Everything. I know that you're going to love this episode with Jeff. He is a tremendous visionary when it comes to this idea about how to be an advocate for your community.
So, Hey, do me a favor, please subscribe to the podcast. Wherever you listen to podcasts. I love to use overcast. It's one of my favorite subscribe. Share this podcast with a friend of mine. Maybe there's somebody who, who you want to partner with to be for your community. Shoot them a copy of this, shoot them the link.
It really does help get the word out. And finally review this podcast. We always love to read your thoughts. Those reviews make a huge difference on iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts. We are so thankful for you. And if Jeff dropped some nuggets that you definitely want to pick back up, don't forget.
You can always get your full transcripts, the full podcast transcripts at reclamationpodcastdot.com. Again, reclamationpodcast.com. Also, we've got some special things happening over on our Instagram page @TWMilt. As we approach episode 100, we're going to be doing some giveaways, some bonus episodes, all the wonderful things, some big announcements coming up big announcements with the podcast.
So make sure that you follow us on Instagram at TW Milt subscribe, wherever you listen to podcasts. Sign up reclamation podcast.com. Now without any further ado, here's my conversation. With Jeff Henderson. Jeff, thank you so much for being on the podcast. Today is an absolute honor to get, to spend time with you this morning.
Jeff: Tony, good to see you, man. Honored to be here. You guys are the church that are for the schools, right? That's who you are, right? That's right.
Tony: That's right. We were 1400 Villa and we're for several schools. Right. And, and that, that is so much because of your message. So thank you. I appreciate it so much.
Jeff: That's one of the many reasons I'm honored to be here. So thanks for having me.
Tony: Now it's it's so it's interesting. I was on Instagram last night, as I often am kind of just mindlessly scrolling and I saw a post with you tagged in it from your friend Carrie new Hoff, who said that you can tell a lot about a person by the way, they put their grocery cart back.
And I thought I get to talk to Jeff Henderson tomorrow. That's the first question I want to ask him. Tell me about that story and why that, that matters.
Jeff: I have no idea how that start it's been years, but I think I mentioned it in a podcast or something, but I don't know. I think hearing that we're talking about character and like, Well, here's the, here's the sign.
You can tell the character of someone, but whether or not they actually take the grocery cart back to work or they just take it to the car and they just leave it for the, for other people to, and I don't know, he posted that and then it just kind of went viral. And then that was like, I don't know, five or so years ago he posts now.
It's impressive for Carrie because he's in Toronto where it's freezing and it looked, it just made me call looking at course. So yeah, that was funny, but yeah, that's, that's just kind of a running joke that a lot of the things I've tried to say in the world, that seems to be the one thing that's sticking.
Tony: So it is always interesting to me, how little things like that go so far, but I, you know, I think it, it holds one of those true Stuart, right? That it's just, if you're faithful in the little things, you know, you know, that's out there. Well, I'm concerned.
Jeff: I wonder if people see that quote, whoever this Jeff Anderson guy is.
He seems pretty judgemental. So yeah, that's funny.
Tony: I loved it. I loved it. And, and you, you've had some major life change over the last at well, since September, really? And your kinda career has been super interesting to get to know a little bit. And, and you recently left Gwinnett church. To start a brand new organization called the four company. And, and I always like to start with this kind of question around this idea is, is how did you know that it was the right time to make a career transition?
Cause if I look at your, like your portfolio, you've worked for some pretty rock star companies. Chick-fil-A the Atlanta Braves Gwinnett church. I mean, in, in Christian circles, that's like an all-star lineup. That's like murderer's row, you know, I've never heard it described that way. That's that's cool.
How do you know when it's time to, with time to make a move? How, how did you and your wife come to that, that period? And how do you know it's, it's a God calling versus just, you know, COVID right.
Jeff: Or what you ate the night before, right?
Tony: A hundred percent.
Jeff: Well, I'm really, I'm really careful to not to overlay my story to anyone's story to say, this is what you should do.
Because I think we're to know your wiring and part of my wiring as a starter, I like to start things I'm fascinated with ideas. I want to solve big problems in the world, and it seems like I have a seven to eight to nine year run, and then I'm kind of honed in on the next thing. But at the same time, I think it's really, really helpful.
To apply some principles to big decisions like this. You know, not a lot of people are leaving a, a certain job to start a company in the middle of a global pandemic. But at the same time, if you allow fear to dictate your decisions, then fear becomes your God and fear, terrible God to have in life. So you've got to balance, not being afraid with an abundance of wisdom.
And the scriptures are clear that with many advisers you can succeed in decisions and plans fail for lack of advisors. So really for us, the journey was about a year and a half. We saw empty nesting coming for us and bringing of 2020. And I meet with a personal advisory board just for guys that I've been traveling with for 17 years.
These are older guys, a kid, these guys, I tell them I want to grow up to be like them someday. And they began to ask me, Hey, what do you think that this empty season's empty nesting season is gonna look like for you and Lindy? Because you know, she's going to be able to travel a lot more with you if you guys speak.
And that really began a journey for us to go, God, what do you want? And one of the things they asked us to do is to pay attention to what the Lord was doing. And then as we looked up and saw the so many churches like your great church leveraging for, we thought, wow, is there a way. To maybe step out of the lead pastor role on a day to day basis and be a pastor to pastors and what I'm doing today, because here's, here's the thing that people may not know about you and me, Tony, we need pastors too.
You know, pastors, pastors are real people. Sometimes people don't it's the clerical, you know clothing sometimes for some people, but we're real people. So I thought, what if I became. A pastor to pastor this pastors in this new season and just encourage pastors and maybe created some, some resources that I can provide them that has worked for us.
And at the same time, because of my business background and because of how well the four book was doing, I really wrote it as a business book. I began to see that, you know, business people need to understand purpose as well. And so this time last year I went on a 24 city business breakfast to we're talking primarily to business leaders.
And it was just phenomenal in terms of the response. So that began a long journey. We thought we would transition out of the church in may just start the company, which really serves organizations by two questions. What do you want to be known for and what are you known for, and trying to make sure that the answers to those two questions match that's true for churches.
Businesses is actually true for people as well. And, but when COVID hit, we extended our R R. Runway until September sit-down and September took October off to kind of decompress a little bit, and then we've hit the ground running in November and it's, it's been incredible. I mean, I it's just I know that we're, as I mentioned, we're in a global pandemic, but the opportunities to serve businesses and churches have just really started to explode and that's a really good thing.
Tony: Yeah, I love that. I'm curious. You know, as I have read the book and kind of we've, we've gone on this journey here at restoration. It, it feels so simple, but yet. It's not something that came naturally to me as a, as a leader to, to articulate. What, where did the Genesis for this idea about being for, and what you're known for?
How did that, how did that come into your life and, and how, how have you seen it? How have you developed it?
Jeff: Totally agree with you, Tony. It's simple, but as Steve jobs says said simple wins, I think simple. Is not easy. Bring those two. And I do believe in church world, sometimes we complicate the message by trying to make it quote unquote deep, deeply complicated.
So simple wins in any business. I believe my friend Donald Miller says, if you confuse, you lose. Keep them simple. And I really was challenged a few years ago by a mentor of mine when I would, when I told him I was so, as you mentioned so blessed, I didn't describe it as murderer's row, but been blessed to work with some, some great organizations Chick-fil-A multi-billion dollar organization and NorthPoint ministries.
It was named recently as the largest church in America. I don't know if that's true or are you going if that's important, but the point I say, the reason I say that is. Two driving organizations in the business space and nonprofit space. And I thought, wow, how blessed am I? And he said, well, you are, but you also have a stewardship responsibility.
What did you learn from those organizations? What, what did you learn especially about, about what caused them to grow? And what could you share with the rest of us? And if you could put it in a book and particularly half a piece of paper, that would be great. And so what was quite a challenge as I reflected on this, it really kind of came down to these two questions that I've been traveling with for years now, but I've never really communicated it beyond Gwinette shirts, if you will.
And that's, what do you want to be known for again, to your point, Tony? Very simple, but. When I go work with organizations, one of the things I do is a pass out pieces of paper for the leadership team and ask them to write down what they think. The answer to that question is then I gathered the questions that I read them.
And more often than not, you get all these different kinds of answers. And if there's confusion in the office space, there's going to be confusion in the marketplace about what your organization wants to be known for. And it can't be a 17 paragraph mission statement that we went on a retreat three years ago, and it's a filing cabinet somewhere.
It's got to be really simple so that everyone can rally around it. And that's what you uniquely bring to your community and what you're uniquely about. But the second question is probably the most challenging one. And that is what are you known for? And that's not your question to answer it is the customers or the people who attend your church for the people who are part of your organization, that, that are, you know, as your customers are tenders, it's their reflection back to you on whether or not you are delivering on your brand promise in question number one.
But the reason these two questions are important is when the answers to these two questions match, when what you want to be known for. Is what you're known for. You create a Salesforce for free. You leveraged the most powerful form of advertising, a business, a church planter, a nonprofit leader can ever have, and that's positive word of mouth advertising.
And I saw that at Chick-fil-A. I saw that at North point, and then when we started Gwinnett church, that's how we kind of came up with this whole four movement with launching for Gwinette. And it just rallied people around what we were trying to do. And it created vision carriers that carried our vision into the community and into their circles of influence.
And so when a church can understand how to close the gap between those two questions or business that's one of the ways they grow.
Tony: Yeah. W why do you think there's such a disconnect between the two? Right. Like, I, I think most leaders would say that they want to be, you know, they, they want the connection and yet most of us don't really have it, or we struggle.
Is that, is that because we over-complicate the message, is it because we, we, we get too much in the weeds around the message. What would you say is you've now worked with hundreds of businesses and churches. Why is there such a big disconnect for what you want to be known for and what you're actually known for?
Jeff: Well, let's pick on business. Let's pick on businesses since we're pastors. We won't pick on us pastors. And same is true for, for pastors if a business was a person, many businesses would be considered narcissist because the most important goal of the business is to stay in business. Right?
The most important goal is to self-sustaining mission of any organization. And while that's understandable, What happens over time, as you begin to drift away from the people that you're actually trying to be for and trying to serve, and you have what I call insider itis. You look at the business from the insider's point of view.
So let me give you an example from my former life in a quick service restaurant industry. When I was working at one of the things I did, Chick-fil-A. Was I worked individually with operators to develop marketing plans, to grow their business and around lunch, I would ask the operator to come out and stand in front of the counter with me.
To see the business from the customer's perspective. And they say, they would say, Jeff, this sounds like something, somebody from the corporate office would do. We don't. We gotta be in the back because this is our busiest time of the day. I said, I totally understand that. I'm not asking you to do this every day, but I am asking to do this rather frequently, because if not, you're only going to see the business from the bar, from behind the counter.
And that's a dangerous place to be. And then you start to make decisions on what I call producer logic versus consumer logic. What's easier for the business versus what's better for the customer. And over time, the self-sustaining mission begins to grow and you began to be more for the business than for the customer.
So what you have to do is understand that if you're going to shrink the gap between those two questions, You have to authentically be for four groups of people, you have to be for the customer and attender. And sometimes you have to choose what's best for the customer and attender over what's best for the organization.
You have to be for the team. You have to be for the community. What are you bringing? That's making the community a better place. And then you need to be for yourself for your leader to make sure that you're running the business, but the businesses that running you. And to have systems in place to make sure that you're genuinely and authentically for those four groups of people, because those four groups of people are actually the ones that are going to talk about your business.
And I think and that's one of the reasons I wrote the books I wanted to give businesses and organizations specific strategies that would allow them to ensure that they're not falling. Victim to insider itis and, and giving example. I, and this is true for churches too, but I ask businesses to go on their Instagram page and count the last 10 posts.
And how many are about the business and how many are about the customer or the community that you're trying to serve. And that's why I tell many businesses that they're not in social media. They're not doing social media and they, they lose their minds. And that I can show you a Instagram page. Facebook page said, no, you're doing digital media.
You're forgetting the social and social media and the reason you're forgetting it is because you're the most important entity. And when the customer is the most important entity, you begin to have a dialogue with them. That's the power of social media. So we have to fall out. We have to make sure we're not falling prey to the the danger of insider Eidos.
Tony: How do we cure it? Right. So like, let's say that you've got it. Maybe even as an individual. I mean, I think if, if we challenged some of the listeners to go back and look at their last 10 Instagram or Facebook posts, and you could see how much people are commenting on their political. Persuasion or what they think should happen next, or, you know, there's a lot of opinions being shared.
It, it would be easy to probably diagnose a lot of us with insider IDAs. How do we battle back against that as, as both individuals and as leaders of companies?
Jeff: I think it's an offer. It's a genuine question in a sense of, are you truly for your customers? Do you truly. And it's, it's a heart issue. It's a, what's the ethos.
And that's what I tell churches. And this is, if you want to do four, you're going to have to have a four ethos. And what I mean by that is you are others focused. And you, you see your customers. And that's what I love, what Andy Stanley says do for one, what you wish you could do for everyone, you may not be able to comment on every Instagram post as an organization, but you can comment on one today.
You can say, Hey, I see you. And from let's just talk about marketing. The old school marketing approach was to shout at customers and say, look at us, looking at us, vague your life and that still. Happening today. You still have the five second YouTube ads, right? I know you didn't see this, but I'm going to interrupt what you're trying to say to get to that.
I mean, that still has some value, but fortunately I think for all of us, that is the law of diminishing returns is happening in that kind of interrupted marketing, which says it look at us, the more engaging and more effective. And the new school marketing is we see you. So it's not about us. It's we see you and we see what you're doing out there.
And when an organization's tells its customers, we see you and we're cheering you on. And there's no, there's not necessarily a business connection. Like why are they doing this? I mean, that's why I love what you're doing with the central field schools. And I mean, I don't want to steal your thunder, but.
What I'll do to do, to basically have a tab at Starbucks. And if they show the sinner real school ID, they get a free coffee on you. And I love it cause they're walking away and they're thinking, why do they do this? What's in it for them to be for Centerville schools. That's a really great question for any organization to have asked about them.
And, and I guarantee you that is a valuable, valuable resource for your church to be showing your community with no strings attached, you know, do one thing. It's like, here's your coffee and here's a flyer, you know? And you know, maybe there are times you need to do that, but I love this. Why are they doing this?
This generosity makes no sense at all. Wow. And that's what I've told our, you know, I told our team that go to church. We want to deliver, well, we want people to go, wow. They are, they are they're really for me. And that's why on our Instagram feed at Gwinnett church, we featured businesses a lot while I was there and businesses would say, Hey, do you want us to put flyers about your church in our, you know, our stores?
And. We would say, no, we just want you to run a great business because if you run a great business and you hire people in our community, it's going to make our community better and we're foregoing to work for you. That's all you need to do. And people are just floored by that. So the opportunity to be a breakthrough church, the breakthrough business, the good news is.
I mean, th th the bad news is it takes a little extra effort. It doesn't take an extraordinary effort, nor does it need to have extraordinary you know idea that no one has ever thought of. But I'm telling you what y'all are doing at Starbucks for your community, people are talking about. And do you know how rare is it when people actually say positive things about organizations?
This is pastor Stoney. How rare is it when people say positive things about the church? So that that's just great, but I think we have to genuinely ask the question. Do I care about the people I'm serving? Do I care about my community and how can my organization rally around my community and encourage them today?
Tony: Well, it's interesting in the midst of the pandemic, one of the, the questions that our staff team has been asking is how can we be for the community? How can we be for Centerville schools? And and you know, we're always kind of wrestling with that. And, and what happened is, is the schools because they have a much bigger facilities than we do.
They have, you know, obviously lots of, they had to shut down a lot of their gyms and spaces. And so. Now four nights a week, we've got dancers coming into our church to use the church basement, socially distance with mass, all the appropriate stuff. It, it might be the best ministry that we're doing and nobody on my staff team has anything to do with it other than just give them a key and remind them of the social distancing policies.
And it's, it's, it's crazy to think about how many people are being influenced by something that. It is really only requiring us a little bit more effort and that janitorial Lee speaking, like it's not even like it it's, it's, it's great. And it, you know, we're not doing it a ton here anyway, with our normal Bible studies and things like that because of the restrictions.
But for these students, I think it makes all the difference in the world. And, and I just don't know that we would have ever thought about it. Had we not been, have we not already decided that we were going to be for the schools?
Jeff: That's so good. And I think it's an answer to the question, you know, this is, this is true in business world.
It's really a raging question right now in church world, which is, which is better digital or physical. Right. Cause we all can pivot to digital, you know, when this thing hit. And I don't think that's the right question. I think the better question or the better strategy is it's not digital, it's not physical, it's local and digital and physical conserved, the local.
So should you be on digital? Yeah. I mean, there's, don't deny technology, is it maybe better to, to be in person? I personally believe being a person is, is better. Same time, both conserve the local. And what I mean by that is what you're doing by having dancers come in and use your facility. And, and you connect that with, this is why we are, this is how we are for our community.
And when we launched for one of the questions I got was how are we going to know, you know, what are we doing here? How are we gonna know if this is working? And what does it mean? And again, this may be just part of my wiring, but I said, well, I've got some thoughts. And obviously the problem we're trying to solve, I think was really clear and that as many people are more familiar.
With what the church is against rather than what the church is for. We want to be known for who and what we're for, but at the same time, let's discover let's go on a journey together and let's figure out what for Gwinnett needs a great thing, Tony, that I love about what you and others are doing. For Centerville might look a little bit different than what Ford one ed is just more demographics as well.
It should. Right? But in the heart and the ethos is about is, is around it as well. And then with business, it's a little bit of swipe. I mean, the principles are still the same, but kind of the messaging is a little bit different, but in the business world, and you see this in marketing demographics play out, this is, I mean, this is why I'm so excited about this message because it's now more relevant than ever.
But when it comes to the business world, it's no longer about being the best company in the world. It's about being the best company for the world. And the younger you go and marketing demographics, the younger folks are saying, if you're not doing anything to help make our community better, we're not going to do business with you.
And, and just being able to articulate what your mission envision is. And again, if the goal is to stay in business, if that's your ultimate goal is to stay in business. You won't at least not the future.
Tony: Yeah. You talk a little bit about that with the Truett Truett Cathy's strategy and his kind of principle about growing people versus growing the business.
What do you think the trend is? I mean, what, why do you think the next generation is so dialed in on. On this idea of, of being for something or developing or, you know, giving back. Why do you think we're swinging that way? I'm super interested on your thoughts on that.
Jeff: I can just give you my opinion on that.
I don't have any, but I do wonder if they have seen their parents burn through a lot of material stuff and realize maybe there's nothing there sustainable as much as we thought. And maybe giving my life to material success without an impact is not a good trade. And I think there's a, you don't have to pick or choose.
That's why I tell business leaders, Hey, I want you to make as much profit as you possibly can. I just want you to grow purpose and profit at the same time, because if you, if you have a compelling purpose and that drives your profit, The more profit you have, the more purpose you have and the more purpose you have, the more profit you'll have they grow, they grow each other.
And that's why I want businesses to grow in our community because we just get better when they get better. And I, I tell business leaders, you got to make sure that there is a compelling purpose, awaiting your team. At the office, because if not, they're going to be disengaged. And the, the, the cost of work forced labor of disengaged employees is astronomical.
And so for me, I, I feel like that the the idea, like you mentioned about true it, that, you know, what I discovered with him is that he was more interested in the business, growing people than people growing the business, but that's how the business grew. He knew that if he could grow people.
Holistically that would flow to the business and he would have great people who are growing in that would flow to the business because if you have any sustained business that is growing over any length of time, not a flash in the pan, but sustainable growth, what you will discover is there are people there that are growing as well.
Tony: That's so good. One of my favorite chapters in the book is the, for you chapter. And one of the first things you kind of start off with as you, you kick that chapter off is about being inspired. And I think, you know, This is, this conversation is going to air in early January of 2021. And people are thinking about their, their new year's resolutions.
They're thinking about what's next. They're thinking about putting 2020 behind them, obviously. How do you as an entrepreneur and then as a leader, how do you encourage and remain inspired yourself? And, and what does that look like for someone who, who may be feeling a little flat or like they're in a rut?
Jeff: If somebody is feeling that way. Good grief. Welcome to the human race train wreck. Right? So if people are skipping through 2020, I might ask them, are you, or are you maybe have a little bit of a reality check, right? Sure. But I do know that at the end of the day, one of my main gifts that I can give to the people that are in my life, Is to fight, to remain inspired, to be the best version of me possibly can be in 2020 was very difficult on that for us.
My concern about 2021, quite honestly, I heard a friend say, I can't wait to countdown 2020 to get out of this year that I can get to 20, 21 as if 2021 will be completely different, at least the first quarter. Right. And so I'm a little concerned that we might be setting ourselves up. For more anxiety and depression.
If we begin to realize the first quarter or so of 20, 21 might not be much different. So you have to ask yourself, what can you control and what you can't control and what you can control is your fight to remain inspired. And there are a list, several ways to do that in a book. But one of the, one of the ways for me is to ask big.
Is just to ask big of people and ask them, Hey, will you, can I interview you? Can I kind of, like I wrote Warren buffet, a letter one time, the richest man in the world and said, Hey, I read your autobiography and I really enjoyed it. Can I come out to Omaha and ask you three questions? And I'm not going to ask you for money, even though I'm a pastor.
And I got a letter back from Warren Buffett that said, you know, dear Jeff, no But one of the podcasts who actually has a letter from Warren buffet right. In the book, the only reason why is because I asked and so I want to ask big of people and go, Hey, can I, can you do this? And, but to do that, I have to fight through all the notes.
Cause I'm going to get. If I ask more, I'm going to get more nos, but I am going to get some yeses. And I put in the book, this story of going to Pixar. And I just love that story because I just asked them, Hey, my, my family's coming out to celebrate my daughter's high school graduation. Can we get a private tour of Pixar?
Because we grew up with, sorry about that. I grew up listening to, or watching Pixar movies and. I got a letter back or a phone call back that said, yeah, that sounds good. And so we got a private Pixar. And so again, in that I have a picture at home reminding me, keep asking big. So as you go into 2021, one of the best ways that you can be for people is to make sure that you're taking care of yourself.
You know, it's the old analogy. It's, it's, it's a worn old analogy, but it's really true that if the is going down and the oxygen mask come down, First, breathe in yourself and then put it to the person next to you. And again, the best thing I can give my organization and the people I'm trying to serve is to bring my very best and to be the best version of me.
That means I got to get enough sleep. Sleep is so underrated. I gotta take care of myself mentally, physically, emotionally, spiritually, and that's not selfish. That's actually, it's actually a gift to the people in your life.
Tony: Well, I love that. One of the things that we say around here a lot is that if you aren't dedicated to your disciplines, you'll be destroyed by your district.
That's great. And so I'm curious, what are some of the disciplines now as the CEO and founder of the four company what are some of your disciplines that you have to do? In regularity to, to make sure that you're the best that you can be. You said sleep and and physical fitness, I'm sure as part of it, what are some of your, your spiritual disciplines or your rhythms that, that help keep you healthy for me?
Jeff: And I'll put this in the book as well. A great day begins the night before, and I just firmly believe in that. And or one of my habits. In fact, this might be my primary habit in 2021. Is to just spend a few minutes writing down, what are the three wins I want to accomplish tomorrow and then write them down from a timestamp.
So it can be, I want to work out at 6:00 AM tomorrow morning, and here's what I'm going to do. Research after research has said that if you will do that and write that down with a specific time on the night before it greatly reduces the likelihood that you'll actually get up and do it. Versus just going to bed with good intentions and setting an alarm that you hit snooze on for 15 minutes.
Sure. A great day begins the night before. So that's one of the specific habits for me. The principle for me, and these days is a biblical principle, which is, do not despise the days of humble beginnings. And so I've gone from being the lead pastor of two locations. Being able to serve thousands of people with staff of 55 to little old me, you know, starting all over again.
But I love that verse because it says that God and God loves to see the work get started. And so I can't, I can't, I can't despise the days of humble beginnings and I've been here before and I've done this before, but it doesn't get, you know, there's still the grief of what you walked away from. And then processing that with with my wife has been great.
And then, especially in these days there are no, there are no decisions right now that I'm making that I don't run by my, my wife at some point some point, you know, this, this thing will start to scale and you know what to bring other people in and all that kind of stuff right now. I'm like, should I, what should I charge for this thing?
And I got this idea with this person. What do you think about that? Everything's being run through her. Because I don't want the, I want us to go on this journey together. I don't want, Hey, I made this financial decision that I probably should have told you about from the very beginning. And now I've got to clean up the mess.
So I want to make sure that she and I are walking step each step along the way, and then ask the question. Am I enjoying this, right. I'm getting a lot of different opportunities, which is a blessing, but there's some opportunities. And like, I don't know that I'm good at that. I don't know. I went in to speak at something at, in Florida a couple of weeks ago, and I got three job offers afterwards, which was so flattering, but.
You know, I'm not looking for but, but, but it was, it was a cool thing to go. No, I don't think I want to, I don't want to do that. Because you know, I'm in my fifties now and I I'm by no means retiring, but I want to be able to have a quality of life. That work is not consuming it 24 seven. I don't want to do that.
And I've heard this thing that when you start something you've got to. You know, sacrifice your life and everything to go for it. I don't think so. Yeah. You gotta, you gotta go for it. You gotta work hard. You gotta be smart and get all that, but I don't want to sacrifice my life for a job. Yeah. We need to make income and all that kind of stuff.
And I'm not going to be irresponsible, but I'm not work is not my life.
Tony: The truth is, is that the four company really started with Gwinnett church when you had already put in a lot of the work there. Right? So you, so there was some momentum there and I, you know, it was clear to me. I watched the, the, the Gwinnette church going away video that they did for you and your family.
And I. I've never been to Gwinnett church. And I've never heard you preach and I'm not part of that community. And I almost got teary-eyed. It was so well done and, and it was just an, it was just like, Oh, this is a natural progression of the church actually being for you. And, and I, I appreciated that and thought that that was.
That was a beautiful thing. So I think with that probably comes a little bit more space than if, if you're, if you were kind of just, you know, cranking out an idea for the very first time as you started a business. Right. I mean, does that make sense? It does.
Jeff: And again, you have to true. Kathy also taught me this take advantage of unexpected opportunities.
Sure. When we launched for Gwinnette nine years ago, nine in my wildest dreams, did I think in church, in the world who do this and there wasn't, it wasn't even a part of the. My that, that, wasn't what I, I didn't even know people were paying, paying attention. And then one day I got a coffee mug in the mail that said for Toronto, and I thought, what in the world is this?
And it was a note from the pastor saying, Hey, we'll do we're church planet. We're doing. And then I started getting t-shirts in the mail and then people asked me to come speak. And then that's when that's when. And then carried you off actually was the one that kind of pushed me over the edge with the book because he was in South Dakota speaking and he sent me this picture and it was, I can't remember the city in South Dakota that it was for something and, and curious it all right.
I've had it. I traveled all over speaking. I C4 everywhere, but you're not, people are just picking up the ideas and what you're posting on Instagram. You need a systematic explanation. Of what this is. So I'm challenging you to write a book in 60 days, I'm going to connect you with my agent, we'll make this happen.
And so that's, and then I had no idea that the book would lead to all of this. So, but I think you have to, you have to be, I think when it comes to ideas, I think you have to test them out. And ideas morph over over time, but this one has pretty much stayed, stay true. And then to be able to see us be able to communicate this to the business world has been, has been really, really, really great.
And but yeah, I will say what, what you were saying about Gwinnett church to me, what they did was, was phenomenal. But and this has probably nothing to do with what we're talking about Tony, but, but in some ways it does, at some point we all finish. Yeah. I mean, at some point you will finish your role as a pastor.
There. There's no question it's going to ruin it and you have to, we have to finish well you know, my story of finishing Gwinnett church USA today, did that talk about it? I'm not been on good morning America because it's a pretty boring story, right? There was nobody stole any money. Nobody had an affair, nobody did sure.
Who was just a pastor moving on. That's not who he wants to talk about that, but you know, Kerry recently finished up his role at his church as well. And both he and I were talking, we were like, we like boring. Boring finishes in a sense, but you finish well finishing well starts today. And as it starts leading, even if you know, you're not going to leave your role for 10 more years, let's say you still finish well today to begin to be emotionally healthy.
And you begin to pulling out the seeds because if you don't do that, you may finish well in a train wreck, like many business leaders and church, certainly church leaders have done. And there's just way too much at stake on that. So when we walked away and said bye to when at church, and they said, bye to us, one of the things that I thought was really important for church leaders like you to see, and for churches to see is that they should do this for pastors.
They should pastors like this when they complete their season. And I heard a wave of feedback from pastors that said two things, pastors, who didn't get that kind of a sendoff. Who said, who were friends of mine? I wish I had gotten that. It would have helped me bring closure to this season. And then I heard from pastors, like you like, wow, that was, that was very inspiring.
So that was a way for the organization to show my family and me that they were for me and, and these difficult, I mean, these are, you know, when you leave something like this, it's bittersweet, it's different because it's not like we were like, I'm tired of you. People I'm mad, right? We started this place and we started two churches and we love the people here, but now this season has come to an end and, you know, not only did we leave our job, we left our church.
Community people say that it was a kind of a triple whammy and October was, you know, just the grief of saying goodbye and bringing that to the close. But the good news for Wendy and me is that we have been through this before. We experienced the same thing and we let shit Flay for Buckhead. We experienced the same thing from Buckhead to go net.
This was probably a little bit more intense because our kids grew up and help start a church here. So they have, we have a lot of memories with them here. So the grief is real and don't let don't do not agree, but at the same time remind yourself of why you're starting this new journey. So for your listeners that are listening and they're thinking about a new journey, I would tell them to keep dreaming.
Don't let it, especially if God's calling you to this and you go, I can't do it because it's a global pandemic. That fear has become your God. Totally understand that. But fear is a terrible God.
Tony: I love that. I love that. And I'm assuming you and Wendy found a new church home.
Jeff: Well, you know, with COVID right now, we're online, everywhere.
Right? What we're doing is we're doing something called living rich church. So we are, we are just watching church online. A couple of couples come over, we have brunch, a little football, and then they go home and It's it's good.
I'm really enjoying this pressure, you know?
Tony: Well, I, I, a year from now what are we celebrating about the four company and how can my listeners be praying for what God is doing through the four company and what that looks like?
Jeff: Well, two things, one on the business side, one on the church side, my hope is to reach 10,000 businesses.
Between this time next year, between now and this time next year. And that's either through speaking in person speaking online, obviously I'm gonna have to do that online to some extent, but I would love to create a movement of businesses that are genuinely for their customer, their team, their community.
And for themselves. And then on the church side, I don't have a numerical goal in terms of the number of trees, but I would love to see the form of the met began to spread. And every community, I would love to have a church, at least one church in every community around the world that says what you're doing, that that we're forced Centerville or for our community.
Tony: I love that.
Jeff: And the other thing would be, I want to be a pastor to pastors. And so I'm trying to create that right now that. You know, when I go speak or do something. I think the most important person that that goes with me is Wendy, because we'll talk with the lead pastor's wife many times. And what people don't understand about church world is often the most the person that is forgotten the most is the spouse of the lead pastor.
Elder boards, miss this, they don't understand it. Church members miss this, they don't understand the weight and pressure that the spouse of the lead pastor carries. And so we, one of the things we want to do to be pastor, pastor to pastors is to really serve the spouses. Lead pastors in particular.
So that would be, those are the three things and continue to get the message of the book out. I mean, my hope is that we eventually would wind up on the New York times bestsellers list because this is the gospel message kind of gone underground a little bit.
Tony: That's my favorite part about it. It's it's, it's a it's transcendent without using any church words.
Jeff: Yep. Well, that's what for fun. I mean, I'll go to the house. As I mentioned, I was in Tulsa a couple of weeks ago speaking, and I'm doing a four talk and it's, there's not a Bible verse in a single talk, but because it's purely business and I'm looking out in the crowd and people have tears in their eyes.
And they come up afterwards and they said, you know, there's something, that's, there's something about this talk. I can't quite figure it out. And I'm like, well, first of all, it's not me because I'm not that great of a communicator. It's really, it's really the Lord. And it's a really Lord taking these words and applying them to your heart because they'll say I just knew that there was something bigger about my job than what I was doing.
And now you've given me language to understand how I can genuinely be for people. At my job. I really want that for the business world. I want people to go to work everyday to note, this is a platform for me to be for people. And that's the other thing I love what you're doing with Starbucks. Not only are you giving the, not only are you providing that for message to the person through the drive, through you're, you're encouraging the people at Starbucks.
Yeah. Yeah, because what a cool gift. I mean, we did the St called pay it backwards at Gwinnett church. So you paid for the person behind you. And but every time I did that, the barista at Starbucks goes, Hey, thanks for doing this. This made my day. Or thanks for that. This is so great. Thanks for doing it.
It just puts a smile on their face. And so I'm hoping Howard Schultz at Starbucks. Here's what you're doing.
Tony: But I, yeah, I, kindness spreads. It's just it just kindness spreads and it's it's a good message. I know my listeners are gonna want to keep up with you and the four company. What's the, what's the best place on the interwebs to connect with you?
I know the four company.com is your website, but what about where you're putting out content?
Jeff: Yeah, Jeff henderson.com might be the better one. We're kind of retooling for company, but and I've got free resources there. We'd love for them to buy the book at the end of the book and, you know, Tony, my, my cell phones in the back and I would love for them to text me.
And I'm getting like a text a day now. And it's just so far people saying, because I've asked them, text me if you will, I'll text you back, but let me know how I can help. And what are you going to apply based on what you're hearing from books. So I would love for them to. Get the book and read the book and then text me and I promise you, I will text back.
Tony: That's awesome. Okay. Last question. I always love to ask people is an advice question about giving yourself one piece of advice. So if you could go back and talk to Jeff Henderson before you preach your very first four message at Gwinnette you're, you're getting ready to step on the platform and share this message that God's laid on your hearts.
If you could go back and give that man, one piece of advice, what would it be?
Jeff: Wow, that's great. That's a great question. I would say to enjoy this journey and not let the pressure of it override the joy and cause you know, you know how this is when you're starting something. I mean, we, we started going at church in a little Italian restaurant with a few people there and we actually asked him to write checks.
This was back in the, you write checks days and You know, you're like, is this going to work? And I have so many memories, but the pressure of will we be able to pay for this building? You know, we built three buildings over these nine years, which for those of you that have built buildings, you know, how wonderful and stressful that is.
And so don't let the joy of the journey be taken away and just also realize. You're making this up as you go along. So just learn and have fun and laugh a lot more. And so I think in those early days, I, and this is another reason why Wendy's such a gift to me, she's the fond Henderson. She'll make sure that I'm paying along the way.
Don't take yourself too seriously. And so I would, I would say that enjoy this journey because it's going to go, it's going to go fast.
Tony: That's beautiful. Jeff, thank you so much for being so generous with your time today and for the work you're doing for churches and businesses. I just wanna encourage everybody, make sure you pick up your copy of this book.
It it will really open your eyes to a great strategy for life. So thank you, Jeff.
Like I said, that was an incredible conversation with Jeff. I'm so thankful for his generosity. First time, I really loved the way he talked about what it means to be for the customer, for the team, for the community and for you, that sense of belonging and true strategy and success versus excellent.
So many things out there that are worth writing down. So I hope this episode really, you know, stuck with you and made you think about what you're for. How are you going to live this out in the community and ways to step out in faith in what you're for? So as always the best comment you can give, leave a rating review on iTunes, share this episode with a friend and make sure to hit that subscribe button.
We are, we are Shannon our way towards 100 guys. I couldn't do it without you. I'm so thankful for this community. There's going to be some bonus episodes and giveaways. Follow us on Instagram. Make sure to subscribe. Check us out. Reclamation podcast.com. We'll connect with you guys real soon.
