#141: Dana K. White: Organizing for the Rest of Us
Dana K. White is an author, podcaster, and deslobification expert.
In our conversation, we talk about what it means to declutter at the speed of life, how to find purpose in your weakness, and how we can give God the worst of us.
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EP. 141
Tony: [00:00:00] Hey friends. Before we jump into this episode, could you do me a favor? Would you be willing to hop over to iTunes and leave a rating or review? We really are trying to get to a hundred ratings. Your help is critical. Thank you so much.
Hey everybody. Welcome back to the Reclamation Podcast, where our goal is to help you reclaim good practices for faith and life. I'm your host. My name is Tony and today is episode 141 of the podcast where I sit down with organizational expert, Dana white. Dana runs a podcast. Called a slob comes clean and her information is so useful for decluttering in every day life.
Now I'm a guy that doesn't really like clutter. I like everything to be clean, but I have a family and three kids and well, you know how that story goes. So I loved my conversation [00:01:00] with Dana. We talked about organization. We talked about what it means to live out your faith in. Kind of a very intentional but quiet way.
So a lot of good dialogue here just about her, about what she does, about what she stands for. I think you're absolutely going to love this conversation with Dana. Hey, and if you do love it, do me a favor, hit that subscribe button, wherever you listen to podcasts that way are, make sure you don't miss any bonus episodes.
Like the one we dropped last week with Erickson. Now without any further ado. Here's my conversation with Dana white. Hey everybody. Welcome back to the podcast. I'm so excited to have today. Author, speaker podcaster, extraordinary organizing for the rest of us. Author Dana K white. Dana. Thank you for being here today.
Dana: It's for having me on this is fine. I hope that I live in the country now. And so internet is an interesting thing. I'm getting used to country internet, you know, I think you have to say internet. And the internet, internet [00:02:00] throwing a yall.
Tony: Now at what part of the country are you located in?
Dana: In texas. I feel like the Texas guys are so big. There should be internet everywhere there.
You know, it's funny. I mean, like not to get off the subject already, but you know, having done this online thing for a long time, I've known so many people who are like, oh, I could do that anywhere. And then they try to do it anywhere and realize, oh yeah, you can't do the internet anywhere.
Cause it really is not as accessible in certain places, but I do have good internet. I'm just kind of trying to figure it out. How do you use it correctly here in the country? So praise the
Tony: Lord. Well, I want to jump in there. There's a word that's all over your blog and website that I really want to hear about, which is, is D slob suffocation, and that that's part of your brand.
And I'm wondering if you could do two things for us. If you could talk a little about what D slob suffocation means and talk about your calling into this [00:03:00] ministry of online. Reality-based organization slash life. Yeah.
Dana: So you want my life story?
Tony: Yeah, yeah.
Dana: Yeah. So D Slava vacation is a made up word that I made up because that's what I do.
I make up words. And really the fact that I made up a word is explains a lot. Like I always wanted to be a writer. So I was actually a theater arts teacher before I had kids. Loved doing that job, but that didn't the schedule that, that involves didn't really go with what I wanted. Once I became a state, became a mom, you know, I wanted to be a stay-at-home mom, the evenings and all that kind of stuff for theater.
It just wasn't my thing. But I wanted to have a creative outlet. And so because that's just as a creative, you know, it just burns inside of you. Like. I'm not truly alive unless I have some sort of a creative outlet. I mean, that's just how God created me. And so so anyway, I wanted to be a writer [00:04:00] thought, okay, once my kids are older, I'll figure out how to kind of go about that.
And then in 2009, I discovered blogs, you know, and they were not new at that point, but new to me and, you know, the whole world didn't necessarily know about them. Like they now do, you know So I realized, oh wow, like people are writing and people are reading it. And I saw people turn it into a business and I thought, okay, this, this is the thing I need to do.
Actually, I discovered that in 2008, but I didn't start writing because my house was a disaster and it had been a struggle my entire life. Like I assumed once I became a mom and it was my first. That I would be successful at that because that's generally how I would live life. I would like choose something that I was into, figure it out and, you know, do it, you know, and I just thought, okay, well, once, once my house is my actual thing, then I'll have it under control, but it actually got harder.
Once we had kids. I you know, I didn't want to [00:05:00] throw myself into this creative project when I still had not figured that out the house stuff, because I thought. I knew how I am with projects and it was going to take my focus even more away from my house. And so so I put it off, tried to get my house under control, prayed a lot.
Okay. God, please seriously fix me. What is wrong with me? Why is this so hard for me? And then right before my middle child went to kindergarten, which he just turned 18. Right before that like it was the day before he went to kindergarten, I was actually in church and I was like, okay, Y, Y R I had like, it was burning in me to start writing.
And yet I was putting that off because God wasn't answering my prayer to change me and make me organized, you know? And. And that was when I felt like God just told me, which, I mean, I know that's a whole conversation on its own, but like, you know, I just, it was like right about that, which would not have come [00:06:00] from me, you know?
Like there's no, this is literally the one thing that if you would have told me, I would be writing about this as my career, I would have laughed in your face. I mean, like, it may, like, it was the one thing I would have refused to write about, but I thought it was going to be a practice. Blog like, so I could kind of go ahead and start learning about blogging while I got my house under control.
Tony: Even been gave yourself a fake name, right?
Dana: Yeah. Oh, I didn't even tell my husband what I was doing like, and he knew, he knew that I had always, that I was wanting to start writing, but I mean, I had tried so many times to get my house under control that I was like, well, this will probably fail too. You know what I mean?
That was just like, you know, it just is, I didn't want anybody to know. I didn't anybody to see. Cause I was, and I was completely. So I've made it anonymous, which then helps me be completely honest because, and I also, you know, the name of slob comes [00:07:00] clean, came to me at that moment and I didn't want to call myself a slob, but once I did.
Had nothing else to lose. You know what I mean? Like I'd already said I was a slob, so why try to pretend any more? Like I had done my whole life trying to pretend, oh, it's just this it's just that it's whatever. So I started writing about it and over time I think it was I think I wrote something one time and I said something about the slob suffocation, which is I think it's as it, Tim Gunn, the.
The he's on project runway and I'm going to be so embarrassed if I said the wrong name, but anyway, cause I love him anyway. I have no
Tony: idea, but this, this guy,
Dana: this guy on project runway, the one that we all love so much, and it's been a long time since I've watched it. So I can't remember his name, but he, he said something about, you know, like loose clothing, you know, and how that has contributed to the slob suffocation of America.
And. Hit me. And anyway, so then I kind of switched it to diesel modification. Like this is my diesel beautification process. So that's the [00:08:00] long version of how this came about. Yeah, like I just started writing about my, what I was doing and not doing and figuring it out.
Tony: Well, I, I love the way that you intertwine practical, very practical, real life strategies and your own personal story.
And now. You've released several books now and organizing for the rest of us is the latest. And it is very very practical, very strategy driven. You know, there's, there's all these different, I mean, really just short chapters, a hundred of them, right? Like easy things to dive into. How do you know.
When it's time for you to create a new resource like this, how do you know? It's like God calling you to this versus like man, do I really want to write another book about my struggles? Because it feels so vulnerable.
Dana: Yeah. That's a great question. So. It all, I always wanted to be a writer [00:09:00] like that was the whole reason that I even started doing this was I wanted to be a writer.
The first book that I put out was like, I, I connected with an agent and as my husband, I were talking about, I was like, am I going to suck? Because you know, you sign with an agent that sounds. Commitment, you know, and before that, everything I had done had been like, okay, I'm doing this and I'm turn it into a business, but I could walk away at any moment.
You know? Like that's because, because I was like family, my kids were at an age where it was like family. Not that family's not first now, but it was like, if they need. All this stuff can go away. Just doing that, you know, and so to, to sign with an agent, felt like it was, it was like, okay, what am I getting myself into?
And but then we just looked at each other and we're like, wait a minute. This is the whole thing I've been wanting to do. This is the reason I started. Writing not what I thought I was going to write about, but this, the whole reason I started writing on the [00:10:00] blog was that I wanted to be a writer. And so it was like, why would I not do this?
You know? So we, we prayed about it. And what was that? And then, you know, I pitched the first book and they gave me a two book contract. So it was like, Okay. I guess I'm writing two books, you know, so I wrote the two books and then this one I've actually, you know, we kind of mentioned it right before we started recording, but you know, I had been working on a book about the Jesus side of everything, you know, like about the spiritual side of that.
I've been working on that for like, I think. Time is a weird thing these days with COVID, you know, I mean, like, I can't remember. I'm like
Tony: 20, 20, right. 2019 is.
Dana: Yeah, I think I started working on that book. 2019. Okay. And so it, and it, it, it was one where I was like, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna get it under contract until I've written it.
Cause I really, you know, I was just like, I really needed to work it out, which was fun to me and exciting [00:11:00] because the other two books have been like, based on the stuff I'd been doing online for so long. And so I was working on that book and I was literally almost done with. And then the publisher basically just said, Hey, do you want to write this book organizing for the rest of us?
And it is like you said, it's short strategy driven, you know, so it's not the 60,000 words, narrative kind of a thing. Like the, the other two books were. And I was like, okay, I think I can do that. And we prayed about it again. Cause it was like, Do I need, you know what, but I see value in this one because it is, it's a gift book.
It's flipped through bubble. It's got pictures. And so I think it's going to reach people that wouldn't read the 60,000 words.
Tony: I mean, honestly, what I told my wife was, I was like I'm podcasting with data today. I'm super excited about it. I was like her latest book. It reminds me of like a bathroom reading book.
Yeah. Like when you're hiding from your family and you're in the bathroom and you're like, I'm just going to read one chapter on, [00:12:00] you know, the importance of the magic that comes with hangers or something like that. You know what I mean? Like, you know, that's the way it feels to me and it, and it's super, it's super cute.
I know it sounds weird just coming out of my mouth, but it's super cute. And I was like, yeah, it is cute.
Dana: Yeah, no I, and so one of the things it's funny that. My agent, a different agent now, but said, when we were talking about this, I was like, okay, you know, I've got this other book I've been working on, do I, do I do this one?
And they were like, you know, this book goes in a different section of the bookstore. Like it reaches a different group of people and you know,
it, I feel like. Okay. So is that going to, and, you know, I hate, I don't want to predict the future. I leave it all up to God. I have no idea, but if it reaches a different section of the bookstore and different group of readers will then, okay. Maybe that's what God wanted to happen before the next book comes out, you [00:13:00] know, eventually I don't know.
I, you know, it's as a Christian, it's tough. Cause you're like, I think God's doing. Well, but it's not my job to predict what he's doing. It's my job to say, okay, what do you have for me? Right. The second. And this was just one of those things that came up and it was like, I don't know how I don't do this, but.
Tony: I love it. Yeah, no, that's perfect. That's perfect because I w what I D I think it does show it is it shows your willingness to be obedient regardless of what you thought the plan was, which I think a lot of us struggle with is like, one of the words that God's been giving me a lot lately is joyful obedience, and I really hate it.
But it's this idea about like, Hey, I'm not in charge, God's in charge. I'm going to do whatever God says, and this, this feels like that necessary step. So I wanted to ask kind of a just a question that peaked my curiosity. What did you think that you were going to be writing?
Dana: When, before I started any of this cleaning stuff
Tony: before you [00:14:00] started, when you, if you go back to like you know, young twenties, Dana, and you're thinking about your writing career is this, are you a theater writer?
Are you a fiction romance?
Dana: No, not romance. If you look at my stuff and see how realistic I am, you can probably get. Okay. Well, yeah, she's not a romance, you know what I mean? Cause I'm always like, I don't anyway, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to bash romance, romance, you know, but, but it, okay, so it's funny because like, what did I think I was going to write?
Well, when I was a theater arts teacher, I was like, I can write. I, you know, I would get these, these little, they come and booklets and stuff, and it's plays that are kind of, you know, perfect for your junior high or your classes to do or whatever. And I was like, I gotta write these, you know, and then I was a stay-at-home mom and I would read family fund magazine.
You know, this was back before the internet was such a big deal. And I was like, I can write that. You know what I mean? So, and the, one of my big ideas I had was I [00:15:00] wanted to write like, you know, conversations for couples and stuff. So even though I prefer. Read fiction. Yeah. Free idea that I ever had came up with was non-fiction.
And so, you know what I wanted to write about what I wanted to start blogging about was this thing that, you know, nobody's ever written about motherhood. I'm sorry. I mean, like, you know, but this is in the beginning before you know that anyway. I'm so thankful. I didn't write about motherhood. Oh my goodness.
I mean like parenting, that would be the hardest thing to write about. I mean, anyway, so
Tony: you'll do fine. I know
Dana: I have older kids now, so I'm like, yeah, everything I've ever thought I knew was wrong, so I've got it. I have one who's about to be 21. Who's 18 and a daughter. Who's 15.
Tony: Do you have any, any tips?
So I'm just a little bit behind you. I've got a an almost 16 year old, 11 year [00:16:00] old and a nine year old princess, two boys and a princess. W w any, any tips, any tips for the rest of us?
Dana: Whatever you thought you knew, just get ready to not know it anymore. That's sorry. No, I mean, I will say that you know, I think I have maybe 16 years left.
I at one point as my kids were starting, you know, kind of probably younger even than yours are, I went through. I'm not going to give parenting advice for the next 20 years. I'm going to wait and see how this all turns out. Know you know, I, and I, and I'm glad for that. I mean, like it's, I'm not there. Holy spirit, you know, and if I actually trust God, then I have to trust him to work directly in the lives of my children. And, and because he worked directly in my life. And it didn't look anything like my mom assumed it [00:17:00] would look or what, what she would have arranged if, if she was the author of that, she would have had it go a certain way and that's not how it went.
And yet I'm so thankful for all that God did in my life has done in my life and continues to do. And so I have to trust that he's doing that in my kid's life. And I say, I have to trust, but it's hard. It's the hardest thing I've ever done to, to let go. You know, because I want to do things that I can control and I want to hold on.
And it's like, no, I've got to, got to let God do it.
Tony: Yeah. One of the things that we say around here a lot is that if you're not dedicated to your disciplines, you'll be destroyed by your distractions. Yeah. And I'm curious, what are some of the things that you do on a regular basis to give them. Trust and control, not, not just for your kids, but also obviously you've got an online business and you don't get to control how people receive that.
You don't get to control the comments and all of the sections of all the [00:18:00] content you're putting out there. What do you do on a daily basis to connect with God and say, okay, not my will, but your will be done.
Dana: You know, it's the easiest to answer. Literally being in scripture every day. I mean, and I say that as someone who was a Christian from childhood and went to church, went to Bible studies read here and there.
It was not until I actually started doing daily Bible study, which I go to Bible study fellowship BSF, which, you know yeah. But. Which they're not near as strict as they used to be. So a lot of people know of them as being like so strict. They're not like that as much anymore, but, but I went scared to death thinking that I was going for my kids to be in the kids program, you know, [00:19:00] thinking I was going to, because I didn't think I could do it.
I didn't think I could do something that you know, was every single day. And yet it literally changed my life, changed. My heart, changed. My soul, changed everything about the way I think. And I've, you know, and, and, and knowing that. Especially as somebody who, you know, if somebody read my stuff, they know that I overthink, like, and God uses that.
I mean, he uses it because he gives me what, however many, probably what, 200,000 words I've written now, at least in books, not counting. Everything else I do. But you know, like words, words, words, words, words about these things that, that need some people need to have rehashed and, and, you know, thought about in a different way and all that kind of stuff.
And yet the thing I have to do as I'm in scripture is to remember, I am not the one in control and the understanding, the figuring it out, that is all actually a matter of me releasing control to the holy spirit and that. [00:20:00] But
Tony: I love that. And I, one of the reasons I love to ask that question is because I want all of us that to just be reminded that the easiest obviously answer is the place to start.
And, and almost everyone says scripture, but, and yet for so many of us, it's hard to pick up the scripture and just get started. So I love that gentle nudge. W one of the things I appreciate about your platform is what I affectionately call sneaky Jesus. And it's not a, you're not overtly Christian, you're clearly a woman of faith.
And if you dig around enough, you'll find little spots here and there. I'm kind of curious if you could take us a little bit behind the curtain on how you position your faith in light of your platform. And and then it sounds like you're, you're making a step in a different direction. What prompted that as well?
So if we could go both.
Dana: Yeah. So so, you know, I started this desktop application process writing about it and I complete, I totally [00:21:00] assumed that at some point God was going to give me a, this is what I hadn't told you so far. And once you get this, you're going to be neat and organized, you know, like I thought that was what was going to happen.
And then you know, and because I was writing about my every day, what I was doing part of that is that I was, is my faith. You know, it's church, it's being in scripture and going to Bible study, all that kind of stuff. So I never hid anything about that, but the more that I wrote. And as I was in scripture at the same time you know, the year that I kinda made it a business, I guess you could say was the year my daughter went to kindergarten, she's 15, almost 16 now.
And. And I've been doing it for two years before that saying, I'm not turning this into a business until she goes to kindergarten, but then I did. And so it was kind of like, okay, now it's time to get serious. Okay. God, you know, and at that point I had, it was two years [00:22:00] in. I started to realize, yeah, this is not a quick solution.
This is more like a lifetime of struggle. And I was also starting to get. You know, a decent size audience. And I mean, it wasn't huge or anything, but it was, you know, like actual people were following and. Anyway. And I went to a women of faith thing that they don't do those anymore, but this was years ago and I actually got free tickets because I was a blogger and it was like, whew.
You know, well then I had to write about it, you know, like that was part of it. And I was all excited that I got free tickets. So I wrote a, you know, and so I was kind of like, okay, I'm going to women of faith. These free tickets. I'm supposed to write about it on the blog. I'm going to write about something spiritual.
So what's God going to show me spiritual about cleaning in this. And yet the thing that he just hammered into me was authenticity. It was not, you should be better at cleaning. It [00:23:00] was, you need to be more authentic. And I had been completely honest as my. Fake personality, you know, as this Noni, which is short for anonymous, you know, I, I was still writing anonymously at that point.
And it was like, no, actually this is, and I was starting to realize, this is the thing he had for me. And it was like, oh, I, what he's showing me more is that I need to, to be open in my real life about this struggle, as opposed to even so much. Talk more about my faith on the site. Does that make sense? I don't know if it makes sense or not.
Anyway. And I, in my mind I was going, what was his question again? Cause I'm just starting to talk about random stuff anyway.
Tony: So this is what we're here for just in case, this is what people listen to. Podcasts is a random thought.
Dana: Yeah. Random thoughts is my that's my forte right there now. So.[00:24:00] And that same year in my Bible study, I was studying the acts of the apostles, which also included Paul's letters to the churches.
And first Corinthians is like my life book, you know, and, and what it is is, you know, he's con over and over. He's like, here's this unique situation? He's like, well, so there's this and there's this, but it all comes down to. And it all comes down to your heart, you know? And then it's another situation like that picky situation that people are like, what about this Paul?
And he's like, okay, well, there's this that's true. And this that's true. And, but it really comes down to love. Like, you know, the, it all comes down to your heart. And I think my husband heard me say a thousand times that year. It's like, but it's a heart issue. It's a heart issue. And that's what he was just getting down.
It, you know, God was getting into me was that it's your heart. And it was never about. The cleaning. It was [00:25:00] always about your heart, your heart for people, your heart, for me you're eh, but that doesn't always say I could get off on this subject, but it does. I'm not saying, oh, get your heart. Right. And then your house will be clean.
No, it's what he was telling me was I had been thinking all this time. I was like, well, God can't use the bad parts of. You know what I mean? Like, this is the bad part of me. This is the thing I'm not good at. God wants me to be perfect and then give him that. And you know, when it's, this might be in second Corinthians, you, you probably know anyway, but where it talks about the jars of clay, you know, and my weakness when Paul talks about that, he's like, you know, I begged God to take this.
Thorne away from me. And God said, no, because there is purpose in your [00:26:00] weakness because that's where my glory shines through. He's like, you know, we're jars of clay. We are supposed to be weak. The cracks are valuable because that's how people see the light that it's that's inside. You know, if everything is.
Opaque. If everything is like, you know, shiny and covered up, and there are no cracks, then people don't see that light that's inside of me. And it was like, God was just like, no, you, I created you this way. I gave you the brain that you have. I gave you the struggles that you have, because that's what I want you to give me.
I want you to give me the worst of you. Anyway, I'm preaching here. But so in, in 2015, I think it was, I wrote an ebook that I just still offer it for free Cod called giving God the worst of me, because I started to, you know, I also saw a lot of the issues with You know, women having real [00:27:00] struggles in their spiritual lives because they felt less than because they felt broken because it's like, wait a minute, Christian women are supposed to be great at keeping their house.
And it's like yeah, this. Like I can't do it, you know? I mean, like, and that was me. And so it, it was like, maybe, you know, it's that, am I not believing enough? Do I not have enough faith? Is that why this is such a struggle and it's, and I'm like, somebody needs to be here. And that's me to say. No. It's okay.
That your brain works the way it does. That doesn't mean we go, oh, well, it's just the way I am. I'm just, you know, no, but you don't need to keep on trying to do things the way other people do it. You should to find out what works for you. And that's what I had to do. And that's what I write about. So it's like I keeping separate the, the cleaning issue and not making, cleaning a spiritual issue.
That's actually a big one. My platform, you know, but I wanted to share the spiritual side of things, which is why I did that ebook. So that anybody who wants to know. [00:28:00] Has it, you know.
Tony: Hey friends just pausing this conversation with Dana to remind you about this spirit and truth conference. That's right.
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You're going to love hearing from speakers like Matt Reynolds, Kevin Watson, Maggie Homer, and so many more now is the best time to register. Go to spirit and truth.life conference. Check that out. You're going to. We have a registration code for you at checkout, put in reclamation into the promo code.
You'll save $20 on registration and more than anything, I think you're going to absolutely love this experience and Hey, I'll be there too. I'd love to [00:29:00] say hi to you now. Let's continue on with our conversation with Dana.
I think that makes a lot of sense. You're you're living in the tension of a both end, right? Like I'm messy and I'm Christian and I love Jesus and I want to do better. And all of that is okay to exist together in one very complex human, right. I, I mean, mom, Probably complexity, but like, you know what I mean? Like that, that that resonates deeply. So, so this next piece of writing is you step out a little bit more boldly in your faith.
Dana: How are you how are the feelings behind all that scared to death? You know, I mean, yeah,
I don't know how much we want to talk about.
Tony: So we're talking about organizing for the rest of us, know when we get to it.
Dana: So, I mean, I'll just tell you, I, I started writing it in 2019. [00:30:00] I had my really bad rough draft finished like March 7th, 2020. Which we all now know the significance of that date, you know?
And I felt like God was like, yeah, cause I had, I had my schedule cause I'm very, I mean, I may be messy, but I am crazy like driven and organized on certain things. Like, you know, that kind of stuff. So, which is how I'm able to write books. But you know, I was like, okay, well, I'm going to take off until after spring break.
And then I'm going to Polish this and have it ready, you know, by the time. And God was like, yeah, that's not going to happen. And I was like, that's weird. Why is he, you know what? And I thought, well, maybe it's because, you know, my oldest kid was graduating. And so maybe I'm going to need to, you know, take a break from it or something.
I was a very quiet sneeze. Thank you. I'm very impressed. I'll do my best. So so anyway, I, you know, But then 2020 happened, you know, I mean like the world [00:31:00] changed and you know, one of the things I really focus in on is when Jesus, I mean, Jesus freaked out on the Pharisees when they made a big deal about his disciples, not washing their hands.
Yeah. You know, I mean, like that's actually one of his first like full on dressing down of people was like, I mean, he, when I read that, I mean, I was like, how did I not see this before? I mean, I've read all these books before, but when I was just like, it, it, I mean that, and here we went into COVID where everybody was like, wash your hands, wash your hands.
And I was like, this is going to hold up. You know? So then in the fall of last year, I went back to. Trying to get it ready to go. And and I was like, yeah, it holds up because it's still true. You know? I mean, like he, wasn't saying it's not a good thing to wash your hands. Yeah. He was just saying, don't make that a spiritual issue, you know, [00:32:00] and there's that thing.
Well, then I'm sorry. Well then. Okay. I don't know how much you want to get into this, but one of the other things I'm just going to be real honest is that I talk about in that w I'm going to talk about that book is why have we been led to believe that cleanliness is next to godliness? Hmm. I think we all know that that really isn't in the Bible.
Right? I mean, you've heard that list of things. And I, when I looked it up, I was like, well, I'm hoping it Shakespeare that said it. Cause if it's Shakespeare that said it, then I can just be like, I wish Shakespeare. Okay. But it wasn't, it was actually, I think it was John Wesley. You know, so, so like somebody.
A spiritual father to a lot of us, you know, I mean like we, and it's like, wait, why, why has this? Because a lot of people just don't, they don't like to talk about this or they don't talk about it, or they don't think it's necessary to talk about they don't, they don't [00:33:00] understand that there are people who are like, Obviously, if cleanliness is next to godliness, I am going to hell.
Tony: I mean, like, I, I know that, but it's the way it's cultural theology at its best it's cultural theology.
Dana: And, but then I was like, why, why, why have people not debunked this? And I'm sorry, but I think it's because people are afraid that if they explain that cleanliness is not next to godliness, They're afraid people are going to think it's okay.
Not to clean. Well, then we get into some patriarchy issues. I'm sorry. But I mean like, you know, cause who is it that does most of the cleaning? Well, it's, you know, anyway, I don't know if I want this in there or not, but you just, how your audience would respond to this because.
Tony: This is good stuff, because I think this is, this is practical, good stuff about the way that we look at our faith and, and whether or not people agree or disagree with what you're saying, that the reality is if we don't take the [00:34:00] time to honor the thought, then then we have to ask the question.
What's the, what's the barrier in my life that doesn't let me honor it. And the patriarchal connection is, is really important because that's how cultural theology is developed. It's by the people. Who pass it down from generation to generation and more often than not in, in theological circles of which I'm a part of many, it's mostly guys who look and talk like me.
Right. So, you know, middle-aged white men, right? Like that's just the reality of, of the situation.
Dana: So I'm here for all of that. That's why I'm scared. I'm like, do I really want to be the person talking about that? Am I qualified to talk about that? Do I, do I. Do I really want to go there because the more I look at this stuff, the more I realize, oh, okay, well, there's, there's a lot farther reaching implications than just, you know, but at the same time, it comes down to discipleship because it's not a [00:35:00] soundbite answer and Jesus was not a sound bite guy.
I mean, like you need to read all of his words, all of the. To really understand, but if you take one teeny tiny thing, you're like, okay, well I'm going to live my life by this, you know, five word sentence within you're missing a whole lot of stuff. And so it really just comes down to that discipleship and, and how it's, it's hard, it's hard to have these conversations.
It's hard to be the one to, to talk about this stuff and to, to say, yeah, you do need to. Do your dishes. I mean, that's what I do for a living is I tell people to do their dishes, but I also want you to be clear that. Jesus. Doesn't love you any less if you do them. And if you don't do them, you know?
Tony: Or any more for that matter, right?
It is. It's not either one. You're not going to earn a deeper level of affection based off of based off of a task. And, and I grew up [00:36:00] Catholic where there's a cultural theology. That's not even true about this idea about earning your way into places, closer to God and heaven. Like it, it's just not there.
And so I think. This is what I know for sure is that my audience loves the prey. And so I'm just going to ask all of them as they're listening to this con conversation to pray for Dana and for this next piece of writing. Cause I think it's going to be really important for a lot of people. And so we can definitely commit to that.
Dana: Thank you.
Tony: I D I do want to have you back on when the, when the book comes out, this is not the book that we dug. All right. Good, good. It's
Dana: not even under contract. It's not done. I haven't looked at it. I haven't looked at it in a year and that's where I'm like, okay, so how's this going to, how's this going to go?
Because I've, you know, I've been wrestling with some studies myself.
Tony: Let's set a date. When do we want this book out by, come on.
Dana: When does God want this book out? That's the thing is I that's, that's my thing is I'm like, is it, is it God that's [00:37:00] making this take longer? Or is it me dragging my feet? Is it, you know, who.
Tony: I dunno. I feel the stress for you. I'm actually sweating a little bit. That's how I know. It's good.
Dana: Yeah. Anyway. Yeah.
If anybody has, like, I can't believe she said the word patriarchy, and now we're going to hate her. Just know I'm struggling with this as much as anybody like I'm struggling with that whole, I don't, I don't want to talk about it.
Tony: So, this is one of the things that my therapist says all the time, and I'll share it with you and our audience is that anytime your emotional temperature spikes above a six.
So if the word patriarchy spikes you above a six, it's always more about you than it is the other person. So on a scale from one to 10, if you get emotionally triggered above a six, just know that it's always about you before. It's about the other person. So if you're above a six, because of something that you heard Dana say and what was a very.
A [00:38:00] very docile conversation about cultural theology. Then I want to invite you to spend some time with God talking about that. And if you want further dialogue, you can email me. And I'd love to talk about theology tony@twmilt.com and we can wrestle through it together. I promise I don't have any answers.
Just a lot of question.
Dana: Yeah, don't email me about it. I'm not ready for that. She's not ready. Wait to see if I keep that in the book or not, you know? Yeah. Then we'll talk about it. If I, if I do keep it in the book.
Tony: And so speaking of books, I did, you know, so this book is coming out January 11th and the podcast that we're recording now in December will come out around that same time period.
People are heading into the new year. W what are your, your top three to five go-to strategies for those. New year's resolutions about, okay, I'm going to get my house finally in order or after our conversation, I feel like we should just throw it out the window. Right. Like, you know, just how do I live in a mess [00:39:00] today that helps me be productive tomorrow.
Dana: Okay. So new year's energy is real. It's also very fleeting. We all know that, right. That's why it's the same one every year. Right? So my, my. Advice on that is to do things in a way where you are guaranteed progress, which my whole decluttering process is all about guaranteed progress. So what, the number one thing that's different about me and every other person who talks about this kind of stuff is I do not pull everything out of a space.
To get started decluttering it. Okay. Because that's a recipe for disaster for anybody like me, because I used to do that. I would, because that's what I thought you were supposed to do. I'd pull everything out of a cabinet that was, you know, cluttered and piled with stuff. And then I would be like, okay, I'll just put back the things that I want to keep.
Well, the problem with that is that I get distracted life happens and. [00:40:00] Now, all that stuff that used to be shoved inside of a cabinet is now outside of the cabinet on the floor or the countertop or whatever. And the worst, the mess is worse than it was before. And so that's where you get really discouraged.
And you're like, what was the point? Cause then you end up having to shove everything back in there and where you kind of knew where it was shoved before. Now it's all one big mess, you know? So. So yeah, that is the biggest no-no is to do that. So instead, what I do is I do step-by-step, I have five, a five step process that deals with each individual item.
As you pull it out, you make a final decision and you act on that final decision. So like the first step is true. Literally just look for the trash because you're going to get stuff out. You're going to start to see what's in there and you're going to get reduced the overall volume of the mess. The second one is easy stuff.
Anything that has an established home somewhere else in your house. It's just not there for whatever reason. We're not going to go. Why is it not there? We're just going to go take it there. Okay. So you pull those things out. The mess is overall reduced, you know, like it it's just every time the [00:41:00] volume of the mess shrinks, the volume of your feeling of being overwhelmed will also shrink.
Okay. And if you step away at any point. It's better than it was before it's not done, but it's better. Okay. And doing that is is huge. Okay. Cause then you start to go, oh, it's worth my time to take five minutes to just look in this space and pull out any trash and throw it away. Then you look for dead donations.
Anything that you don't have to really think about, you just stick it in your donate box. And then The next is my decluttering questions, which you know, help you determine where something goes in your home. Where would I look for at first? And then you eat with each individual item that you pull out, you take it there.
Now that right there is the key and it can feel like no, no, I'm different this year. This year is different. I really do mean it. I'm going to be organized forever. Okay, great. You're still going to get there using this method, but with this method, If you happen to fizzle, I'm sure whoever's listening. I'm sure it's not you.
It's the other [00:42:00] listeners that I'm talking to, who would probably like, but you personally, who are Haimer Matt, I'm not talking about you. I'm just like, oh, there's other people. So there's other people who are going to fizzle. If they will do acting on each item individually, as it comes out of the space, when they fizzle at any point, their house is better off.
So when the fizzle happened, You're not in this bad situation of, oh my goodness. I've messed up my house worse than ever, whatever. Instead you are just like, oh, okay, it's better. It's the stuff has gone. It's out. It's all in attempts. So anyway, that right there, the other thing, as far as if you're looking for habits, which habits are everything, declutters, every decluttering is everything as well, but habits are also everything.
Sorry, but if you're looking for habits, do your dishes every. And there are people listening who are like other people had done know to do that. Yeah. There's a lot of people who put them off. I mean, just, you know, because dishes, math is a thing. Dishes, math is that [00:43:00] one day's worth of dishes takes like 10, 15 minutes.
Two days worth of dishes does not take double that amount of time. Even though logically, I thought it was. You know, it takes an hour because now you're having to shift and rearrange and, you know, whatever, get the water out and get clean water, all that kind of stuff. Three days worth of dishes is like a whole kitchen excavation five hours.
Well, my problem was I didn't realize that. And so I thought doing the dishes took hours, like, because I always just would wait until I was out of dishes, you know? We'll be like, oh, well, one day's worth of dishes doesn't look like enough to be worth my time. I should wait until I actually have enough that it's worth my time.
Well, two days worth of dishes, I don't have time to do all that three days worth of dishes. Oh my goodness. I'm like washing, you know, we're drinking out of measuring cups, you know, that kind of thing. So it's like that is that just reality? I thought doing the dishes was a five-hour task. And so I just did math and thought, okay, well doing the dishes of every day, every day then would be like, [00:44:00] An hour and a half.
I don't have an hour and a half every day to do dishes, but only after I did the dishes every single day was I like, oh, one days worth of dishes takes like 10 minutes and realizing that is, is huge. And if your house is out of control, the thing to do first is your dishes. Every single day. The thing to do first is your dishes.
When you're overwhelmed, you don't have time to do a whole lot of stuff, do your dishes. And it really does have an impact on the entire.
Tony: No. I love that. I love that. I think it makes sense. And I love the idea habits. It reminds me of that graduation speak about speech that the one Admiral gave about making your bed everyday.
Like that's just a, a place to start where you can knock a task off.
Dana: Think about that
Tony: for a second. Yes, please.
Dana: I just want to say making your bed. I won't show you mine. It's actually right over there. It's not made. But the reason, because I had heard that before I was like making your bed was okay. And I'm like, okay, well, because I was so completely overwhelmed in my [00:45:00] home.
I was like, okay, you can tell me to make my bed. And that is great. And it really does have a positive impact on my psyche and everything. I do make my bed. However, I had been living at the time, what, 35 years of my life, knowing for a fact that at the end of the day, if your bed is not made, you can still go to bed.
But. The thing I had to realize was, but doing the dishes, if my dishes are not done, it really grinds the entire house to a halt because we can't cook. We can't, we don't have anything to eat off of. We don't have any space on the counters. We like have to wash a pot before we actually cook. You know, it's been like, Not doing the dishes is a big problem.
So anyway, doing the dishes does grind everything to a halt. So it's like, I was the person who needed to know yeah. What actually really has to be done. Like what [00:46:00] actually moves the needle. So making your bed is awesome. But if in your mind, you're like, eh, yeah, I don't really have to do that. I'm telling you, you do have to do dishes.
Okay.
Tony: So yeah, no, I actually, I like it because it puts it into some productivity ideas and that, and that sort of thing. So I would be remiss since I have the expert here. If I didn't ask a semi-personal question that may or may not have a huge impact on my marriage. So So my wife and I will celebrate 19 years of marriage in February.
Thank you. She's everything to me. She's wonderful. I have a problem about putting my clothes away. My wife washes the clothes and she folds the clothes cause she's amazing. And my kids helpful. The clothes are where they wash them up nicely. And When you have something in your head, that's like, I really need to put my clothes away, but I absolutely hate the task more than anything in my life, especially when I know that I'm just going to wear the clothes again, but yet it's [00:47:00] having an adverse effect on my marriage.
And we've, we've actually talked about this and when I do marriage counseling stuff, I talk about this because it clearly feels like I'm disrespecting or not honoring her work, that she doesn't feel valued when I don't put my clothes away. Do you have any, can you help me not, can you help me want to put my clothes away?
Dana: I want to know. But I you know, like I had to give up on the. Someday, this is gonna be different. Do you know what I mean? Like, I'm going, I'm going to be, I just need to be different. Let's go with how you actually are. Okay. Here's the thing is my here's my guess is that it doesn't occur to you to put your clothes away until she's already mad.
Is that right? Right. That's correct. Okay.
Tony: I don't even, actually I don't even really think about it cause I'm just going to, I wear the same clothes every week. It's not, it's not. It's the same. Right. Basically. So,
Dana: so you've thought about, you've thought about [00:48:00] it in after the fact, but the problem is that you don't ever think about it before the fact.
Right. Okay. So that is the story of my life. Like I have what I call slob vision. Like. I don't notice things like, you know, people are like, well, just don't put your you know, your keys down on random places. And I'm like, you think I realized they're leaving my hands. Like I literally have. They're like, oh, just always do this.
And I'm like, that's a nice thought anyway. So what I have to do there is a lot of magic in what I call the five minute. Okay. And you can kind of adjust it for whatever your situation is, but just to say, okay, because these things don't just naturally occur to me to do in the moment. That doesn't mean that I go, oh, well then I'm just not going to do it.
Oh, well it just, I'd never, instead I say, okay, if I take a five minutes of focus and say every day, at some point I don't assign a time of day because then if I miss it, I'm like, oh, well, I'll have to do that tomorrow. Instead. I'm like, whenever it occurs to me that I [00:49:00] need to, you know, I call them awkward pauses.
I've got five minutes. Say I'm going to do a five minute pickup. And during that five minutes of focus, You put your clothes away. Yeah. You know what I mean? And so maybe they weren't immediately put away, but they are put away. And so it like takes me like a five minutes of I'm going to do the thing. So for me, it would be like, you know, the water glasses, my husband feels like we live in, what was it?
The alien movie with Mel Gibson signs. Yeah. He thinks that that plus cabinet doors open all the time. He he's like, it's like M night Shyamalan used to you as his reference for all his movies anyway. But, but he, but I'm like, I don't notice that they're there, but when I have five minutes of focus, when I have a five minute pickup.
Oh, okay. Well now I see them and I go in, I do that and my house is better off than me just going, why don't I do that? You know what I mean?
Tony: Yeah. [00:50:00] Yeah. That's really good. That's really good. So many helpful things here. So many valuable insights. We really did cover the gamut today. I know that my listeners are going to want to follow you and continue to pray for you.
Where's the best place on the interwebs to get connected to to you and your, your platform.
Dana: You can just go to a slob, comes clean.com. That is my home base for all the different things that are.
Tony: And you've got a podcast and a blog and it looks like some online courses if people really want to get in, into the thick of it as, as the new years approaches.
And you've done a really good job on your website about, Hey, if you're not sure where to start, start with this one blog where you, you kind of break it all down. I think that's very, very well-written and beautifully done on your part. So kudos. Thank you. Okay. So the last question, I always love to ask people.
It's an advice question, except I ask you to go back and give yourself one piece of advice and I get the name the day and time. [00:51:00] And so I'd like to take you to the day after you publish your very first blog on a slob comes clean. If you could go back and look at that younger version of Dana. And just kind of grab her by the face, look her in the eyes and give her one piece of wisdom.
Now 12 years later what's the one thing you're telling her.
Dana: Hm. That's a good question. The word that comes to mind is, is relax. Like, you know, I think I was so. I probably said it multiple times in those early years, especially, but like, I felt like I was hanging on by my fingernails, you know, like, okay.
So I did the dishes and I picked things up today, but I was waiting to fail because I had failed so many times, you know, trying to get my house under control. And what I know now is that if you fail, okay, just do the dishes again. And [00:52:00] pick up again, you know what I mean? It's there, this isn't a project.
This is, you know, your house is not a project it's just day after day. And the more you do it, the easier it's going to be, the more you get stuff out, the easier it's going to be. But I think it's just relaxed and, and know that you are going to mess up, but that doesn't mean you failed.
Tony: I love it. You are going to mess up, but it doesn't mean you fail. That's a good word for all of us. I think Dana, thank you so much for being so generous with your time. Thank you for your openness, your vulnerability and your authenticity. It really does mean the world. I appreciate it.
Dana: Thank you for having me on I've really enjoyed this.
Tony: What I appreciate about Dana's work, her ministry is how practical.
And just realistic. She is, this is not one of those kind of self-help gurus that doesn't know what life is really like. So when you go to her website or you listen to her podcast, you'll find the most practical [00:53:00] apple applications on how to get organized and focused on this next season of life. And I don't know about you, but it's never hurt me to get focused on the next season.
So, thank you guys so much for tuning in today. Thank you. Do me a favor, go follow Dana on socials. Let her know that you heard her here on the podcast, and don't forget to hit that subscribe button wherever you listen to podcasts, leave a rating review on iTunes or Spotify, and be sure to share this episode with a friend.
It is by far the best compliment you can give us. Thank you guys so much for helping me be a part of this platform and have the opportunity to do this work. And remember, if you want to follow Jesus, you must be willing to move.
