#86: Erwin Lutzer: We Will Not be Silenced
#86:Erwin Lutzer: We Will Not Be Silenced
Erwin W. Lutzer is Pastor Emeritus of The Moody Church where he served as the Senior Pastor for 36 years. He deeply desires for the Christian Church to begin speaking into the culture, and his new book tackles this topic head on.
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EP. 86 Erwin Lutzer
Tony: Hey everyone. Welcome back to the reclamation podcast, where our goal is to help you reclaim good practices for faith and life. I'm Tony. And this is episode 86 of the podcast. I get to sit down with the former senior pastor of moody church for 36 years. Dr. Irwin Lutzer. Dr. Lutzer is an incredible voice on culture and the church.
And we sit down to talk about his new piece of writing. We will not be silenced. As we end 2020, I believe this is one of those important dialogues that needs to happen in the life of the church about why and how we stand up for Christianity against the culture and how culture versus Christianity has become a series of attacks that we can no longer just stand idly by.
It really is a different way of thinking that Dr. Lutzer brings into the dialogue. But I do think it's important for so many of us as we stand in strength and faith as always the best compliment you can give us, leave us a rating or review, share this podcast with a friend. Maybe somebody who's never heard it before.
It really does so much to help get the word out about what God do is doing through the medium. So without any further ado, here's my conversation with Dr. Irwin Lutzer. Hey everybody. Welcome back to the podcast. I'm excited to be here with the pastor Meredith of moody church, pastor Lutzer, pastor. Thank you so much for being here today.
Erwin: I'm so glad that I can be with you, Tony, and God bless you and your ministry.
Tony: Well, thank you. And you've got a brand new book out called we will not be silenced and it's all about kind of the tension that exists in the culture in the church. And so I'm kind of curious you know, you're, you've, you've been in ministry for a number of years.
Why is this the right time to put out a book on culture and the church? Cause it, it feels very pointed.
Erwin: Well, Tony, I realized something about a year or two ago, and that is that the radical left does not believe that America can be fixed. It has to be destroyed. Its institutions have to be destroyed and on the rubble of our Judeo Christian heritage.
A new America will arise. That will be free of racism, white supremacy, income inequality. And if you resist this utopian vision, you are vilified, you are called names and you're called a racist and everything else. And that's where we are. And so. I felt it was so important that the first chapter, for example, deal with Marxism cultural Marxism, which is the same as Marxism, except it's to be brought in incrementally how that underlies what we are seeing in our culture.
Even the tearing down of monuments, even the things that are happening in terms of. What people would like to do to her institutions. That all is a part of it. And while I'm on the topic of Marxism, it's so important to realize that Marx wanted to destroy the family. As he saw it as a unit of oppression, men were oppressing, their wives, parents were oppressing their children.
God is the Supreme oppressor. And so he believed that if we remove this oppression, Why everybody's going to live morally. We're going to live in a very, very happy world. That's the world in which we find ourselves. And what we aim to do is to understand. And I'm one other comment, and then I'll go back to your questions.
Let's take black lives matter. Do black lives matter? Of course they do all lives matter of course, including the ones that are killed, oftentimes in gangs and so forth here in Chicago. But. And I don't mean to imply that they are the only ones that are killed, but the point is the organization that uses that mantra is Marxists and admits that it is trained in Marxism.
And so what we need to do is to speak to these issues, but hopefully speak well, but just know what is going on also.
Tony: So one of the things that's really interesting is in the, in the book, you talk about how, how this has been burdened on your higher, right? I was, I was listening to one of your YouTube videos about the topic and, and I always love to ask people the question, how did you hear from God that this is the time for you to go down this work?
And and, and how do you know it's from God and, and not just from your own political stance.
Erwin: Well, interestingly, this book is not political in the sense that I don't endorse a particular candidate or a particular party. It is issue oriented. But in answer to your specific question, what I see today is that the church's submitting to the culture and we are being shamed into silence.
So if we speak, for example, against his lung, which incidentally is another chapter in the book, how the radical left is teaming up with Islam to destroy America. If we speak about these things, we are vilified or take the controversial issue of same sex relationships under the guise of love. The church is submitting to the culture.
And social justice, there's a right way to speak about it and a wrong way to speak about it. And so I see the church, here's the way I think I want to put it on the one hand. We want to appear nice. We want to appear loving. We don't want to have any stumbling blocks to the gospel. So we're quiet about a lot of issues.
On the other hand, we are called to speak to these issues, recognizing that the gospel is the centrifical force of everything that we do, but we can't simply stand by and see these cultural changes without responding to them.
Tony: Now, I'm curious, you've done ministry for a number of years. I mean, honestly longer than I've been alive.
Right. And, and so w how, how do you see submitting to the culture look in today's world versus when you first started? Because the church hasn't, I mean, the church has struggled with culture since its existence. Why does it feel, and it does feel different to me. Why does it feel so different now versus.
Three decades ago, all
Erwin: answer in one single word. It's very different because of technology parents no longer raise their children, not even Christian parents raised their children. The cell phone does I point out in the book in the chapter entitled the sexualization of children that the cell phone in your teenager's hand does more to inform his or her view of the world than an hour of church and an hour of Sunday school.
So we're allowing the culture. To raise our kids primarily through technology. And what we must do is to recognize that and to you know, parents have an awesome responsibility here because the power of technology, it is instantly addictive. Yeah. And even the rage that we see today, how, if you take a particular stand, you are vilified.
The internet is being used for that. I know that the internet is being used for good, but Tony, I think on balance, it is being used for the devil. And it's almost as if the devil says, this is my territory and I stand here. Now we use technology as a church. You use technology. We all understand that, but it is, it has to be bought out of.
A culture that is really a wash with pornography and wrong views about a lot of different things. So yes, things are very, very different than when I began ministry 40 years ago. When you were born.
Tony: Now pastor I'm curious, cause I, I like to get super practical. Do you have grandkids?
Erwin: I do. So
Tony: how do you as, as their, as their grandfather and as the patriarch of your family, how, how are you and your kids managing this? Cause I know, so I've got three kids. I got a 15 year old, a 10 year old and an eight year old and they're doing virtual school now.
And so they're, I mean, they are literally in front of a screen. Oftentimes for six, seven hours a day. And it, it feels almost uncontrollable and I often feel caught in the tension. How do you guys manage it in your family?
Erwin: Well, we have three daughters they're married thankfully to Christian mans or grandchildren are being raised in the nurture and the admonition of the Lord.
But since you raised the topic and I believe in honesty, Rebecca. And I are very concerned because we've noticed that some of them are being shielded from these things, but not entirely so others less so. And I really don't know what the answer is now. All of their parents say, you know, we have controls on their cell phones and on their computers.
But Tony, you know, that these control mean very, very little to a child. So ultimately what we have to do is to pray for our grandchildren. Like I prayed for mine today that God might capture their hearts because of he doesn't have their hearts. They are going to totally succumb to the culture, to the pressures of the culture.
So that is one of the greatest changes I've seen in the last years. Tony, it is often said just like you did, you know, the church has always had to contend with culture. That's true, but no church in history has had to contend with what we are contending with today, since the rise of the internet and the.
Instantly addictive power of technology.
Tony: Do you think Do you think that the church should be let me ask this a different way. Cause it's the words aren't coming out very well. How does the church fight back against technology when it's also being used to. To, to reach so many people, right?
Like, so it's a double-edged sword here. We're, we're reaching more people than we've ever reached before yet. We're not really reaching them. Cause we're, they're, they're an audience they're not engaged. So how do we, how do we live in that tension of like, man, there's tremendous ministry opportunities here and yet and yet it's also a place where so many people go astray.
Erwin: Yeah, well, you know, that's the thing that we have to manage and I have no quick answers for that because the power of technologies, I mentioned it as being used for good.
Tony: And
Erwin: by the way, you know, those churches, including the moody church, which has services online, The expert tells us that one third of the people will never be back, goes now they're used to going to church in their pajamas with a cup of coffee in their hand.
And they they're used to that and they're not coming back a third and we'll come back and then the others are gonna have to make up their minds. So yes, on the one hand technology has to be used, but on the other hand, we need stricter guidelines. I believe that children need to be be under control in that chapter, in my book, by the way, there are resources at the end of the chapter, by people who deal with this.
For example, there's a woman whose email address. I leave there and whose ministry I leave there. It's entitled counter culture moms. She. Does a constant critique of pop culture and warns people about this movie and that program, that program. So there are resources out there that parents can take advantage of to help them navigate as to what their kids should be seeing and what they should not be seeing.
And the lure, the lure of. Making things attractive. When point of fact, they are very harmful to children.
Tony: Well, one of the things that you talked about. In the book and you've already mentioned here is the vilification of Christians. Right. And it is very I recently read with a mentor of mine, resident aliens.
This feels very much like that idea that, that when cultures, when Christians stand up against culture, that they're going to be vilified and they're really going to stand out. So one of the questions I was really interested to get your thoughts on is how should the Christian too are listening right now?
Fight back. Like what, what is the Christian way to fight this?
Erwin: Well, first of all, for everyone, to some extent there, the answer is different. If you're in a position of responsibility you know, beyond your family, that's something else that you have to do. And then if you're a parent, you know, you have to fight back in different ways, but here's the point that I want to make.
We need to be willing to stand up for a biblical view of marriage. We need to stand against false Marxist views of social justice, and we need to be willing to take the heat for this as long as it is done. Yes. In love. But here's the danger. I see Tony and I discussed this in the book and that is the danger that love is being used.
As an excuse to submit to the culture, let's take the same sex marriage. For example, you have ever Angelicals who are submitting to that under the guise of shouldn't, we have more love and not less. I point out that actually the word love in the Bible can be very evil and Adam and Eve sinned. They didn't stop loving.
They just started to love the wrong things. They became lovers of pleasure, lovers of themselves, lovers of money. So it's not true that wherever you find love you find God. And so what we need to do is to recognize that we speak the truth, but we speak it with broken hearts. And I point out it is much better to speak the truth and be thought hateful.
Then to speak lies with compassionate tones.
Tony: That's really good. So let me, I love to get practical about this kind of thing. You know, you obviously live in the Chicago area and that is a. Full of different beliefs, right. And I'm sure that you are in relationships with a lot of people who are don't agree with your biblical viewpoint. Don't agree with the things that you wrote.
Don't even agree with the stance on, on just biblical marriage, for example, how are you living in that tension of those relationships? Because obviously we can't just, you know, cut those people out of our lives. There's I mean, let's be honest. There's just too many of them.
Erwin: Well, I no longer am the pastor of moody church.
I'm the pastor emeritus and moody church has a new pastor. Thankfully, his name is Phillip Miller, and I think he's going to do a very good job, but here's the point that I want to make. How do we relate to them in the book? I say this, we can be welcoming, but not affirming. In other words, we say to the community, everyone is welcome.
But that does not mean that we affirm your lifestyle or your beliefs, but the invitation is to everybody and we need to be able to live with that kind of tension and move on from there. So some people are going to misunderstand, of course. You know, in today's world, if you don't submit to the LGBTQ culture, you're a hater, but that's the price of following Jesus.
And, you know, Tony, I point out in the book that historically the church has always been vilified for its beliefs, and it's always been an Island of righteousness in a sea of paganism. And you know, the last chapter is entitled strengthen what remains. In that chapter. I talk about Jesus. Speaking to the church in Sardis.
The problem with the church in Sardis is it no longer saw the world as its enemy. So it had submitted to the culture and Jesus said, strengthen what remains, because later on in the letter he says, but you still have some people in Sardis in the church. Who walk with me in light for they are worthy. So listening today to this podcast, there are many people in churches that seem to have submitted to the culture, but there's also many strong Christians or saying that we want to be among those who are not submitting to the culture.
And we have to take the heat and you look at martyrdom. You look at all of the history of the church. It has been full of heroes who refused to be quiet instead of being shamed into silence.
Tony: So I recently recorded a podcast with a gentleman by the name of Jason Hemenez, and he wrote a book called challenging conversations.
And it's it, it parallels your book very well. And one of the things he talked about was this idea of advocating for the other side, because when we live with Christ, we get a fullness of the life that we can only get through Christ. And I love that idea about advocating for the truth. How were some of the ways that in the community that you live in specifically with maybe your, your non-Christian friends or some of your your, your marginalized Christians, you'll be new Christians.
How are you advocating to bring them into this kind of counter-cultural reality, as opposed to, to what we see on the media?
Erwin: Tony, one of the things that I wish I had done more, and of course you can't do it now at all because of Corona, really the way to persuade and to interact is personally. Hmm.
People don't listen to preachers anymore, unless they know in advance that they agreed with them.
Tony: Amen.
Erwin: Amen. You have that
Tony: all the time.
Erwin: Throw this in because you're a pastor. I don't know who in the world you are, but you're a pastor. When I taught, preaching up at Trinity cemetery seminary, actually, I actually took students to a cemetery.
And told them to preach to the dead. Oh wow. Because the Bible says that the unsaved are dead in their trespasses and sins. So I told them you'd better preach to the dead to get used to it because you might become a pastor someday
Tony: and that's even gotten worse with
Erwin: now, you know, you preach to the dead, but what does God do? And then I take them to the Z kill. He was to preach to dry bones. Every passenger has had that experience, but while he is preaching, God put flesh on the bones. Yeah. He was preaching. God gave the bones life. And then after 15 minutes of this exposition, we get on our knees.
And commit ourselves to total unrelenting dependence on God for the proclamation of the gospel. Because Tony, when you preach the gospel, you're expecting the dead to rise the deaf to hear and the blind to see. Amen. Miracles. Can you do thank you very much.
Tony: Absolutely. Zero.
Erwin: Zero. So that's why we need such dependence on God and the proclamation of the gospel.
Now that's a sign and a sign. Yeah. Not in this book. It's in my autobiography. That story. And by the way I thought I'd throw this in. You seem to be such a nice accepting guy. My autobiography is entitled. He will be the preacher. I love it. I was a baby sleeping in a crib. The pastor and his wife came over and before she left, she said to my mother in German, he will be the preacher.
I don't know how she knew that it may have been a random remark.
Tony: Now you grew up in a farmhouse in Canada, right?
Erwin: Yeah. Thank you for knowing that. Yeah.
Tony: And why were they speaking German? That, that was really big. It is. Is that a German influence there?
Erwin: Oh, my parents were Germans, but they were born in the Ukraine in Russia.
They came over independently, not knowing each other. They met in a small church. My father asked if he could walk my mother home, she walked, she lived a half mile from the church on the way Tony, he asked whether or not she would marry him. And she said, she'd have to think about it. Within two and a half weeks, they were married.
They were married for 77 years. My father died at 106, my mother at 103.
Tony: Holy smokes.
Erwin: I always say my parents lived so long that I'm sure until my father died, all of their friends in heaven thought that they just didn't make it, but I can assure you the Luthers made it. They were very godly.
Tony: How did you end up in, how did you end up at moody?
Erwin: Oh, Tony. Now we are off the
Tony: subject. I promise. I'll bring us back before we to hear more of your story.
Erwin: Oh, okay. That's a whole chapter in the book that God wants you to read. Okay.
Okay. I'm glad you have a sense of humor. I love that the pastor of a small Baptist church here in Chicago and I resigned to teach full-time at moody Bible Institute. My last Sunday is March end of March, 1977. We wake up the next Sunday. Without a church to go to. I wanted to go to a different church, but my wife's said, let's go to a moody church.
Now you have to understand that whenever I hear the voice of Rebecca, whenever I hear the voice of God, it sounds an awful lot like Rebecca.
Tony: Amen.
Erwin: We went to moody church cause I had come to know where's B there's no parking. I drop her in the kids off here's those long line of cards, but a guy ahead of me.
Gets in his car and drives off. And I back in, I go into the lobby. I see where's be leaving with his coat on. He doesn't see me. I see him. And I said, where's me. Where are you going? It's 10 minutes before the morning service. He said, everyone loves her. I'm sick. I'm on my way home. I want you to preach for me this morning.
We ever attended a service at moody church. I preached at moody church. And that was one of the links that God put together whereby eventually I became the pastor.
Tony: W what's it like? Cause I imagine that this book we will not be silenced is built out of doing ministry in a church. That's kind of in the midst of a cultural, I mean, Chicago has like really changed.
Since you've been there, I would imagine like it just historically, right. It's changed a lot. What's it like to pastor a church in the middle of the journey to a post-Christian culture?
Erwin: Well, once again, what you have to do is to keep your ear to the ground, but also stay in the word to me. The gospel is central to everything and everybody needs to hear it.
But when we preach against controversial sins, we do so with humility and brokenness. When a Massachusetts instituted same-sex marriage, you know, many years ago, 10, 12, I preached two sermons on it. And even those who struggled with same sex attraction told me they may disagree with me, but they appreciated the attitude and heart with which I preached it.
If all that we can do is to condemn the culture. They will turn away. So we preach the truth, but we treat, preach the truth in brokenness and in love. And even those who resist the truth are impacted because they see our hearts. So that's about all that I can say. And then there were controversial topics.
But I did not deal with from the pulpit because it caused too many questions that needed answers. And so sometimes I had seminars on a Saturday for those who were interested in certain issues that were important, but if I preached on them, it would have raised more questions than answers. So,
Tony: how do you in your daily disciplines, I'm curious as a man of your faith and who's been doing this and on this journey for for so long, how do you stay connected to the voice of God on a regular basis?
What are your, what are your practices look like?
Erwin: Well, Tony, as we've already indicated, I'd been around a lot longer than you have.
Tony: Do you mind if I ask how old you are?
Erwin: No, I'm fine. I'm I'm 79. Okay. Beautiful. I looked into the mirror the other day and I said, honey, I don't look 79. Do I? She said, no, you don't, but you use it.
So here's the point. Here's the point, Tony. And I hope that this registers with you spend a lot less time asking God for things. And much more time just worshiping him almost every day morning. Well, every morning virtually, including this one, before I roll out of bed, I say, God glorify yourself in my life today at my expense.
Then this morning I did get on my face before the Lord. And I quoted a verse that I quote almost every morning. I will bless the Lord at all times. His praise shall continually be in my mouth. And I quote scripture to God and tell him that I'm going to worship him, even though I don't understand his ways.
Have you ever noticed that God doesn't do what we think he should. Amen. And what we need to do is to let him be gone. We're in a very interesting political moment. Okay. And I've always believed and taught that God is Lord of the nations. Now we play a role too, because there's a convergence between the human will and, and our democracy and who rules.
But ultimately God is in charge and I'm not going to change that just because. We're living in a time of political wrangling and disagreement and all those other things. So I say to your audience that and by the way, I wrote a blog, which you probably didn't read. And it's, it's entitled an admonition to the church at this cultural or political moment.
And what I say there, Tony, is that. We have deeply rooted political differences, but if we are believers, we need to emphasize what we agree on and not divide. Over our political divide. I make the astounding statement that God actually saves some Democrats and he saves some Republicans too. And we need to recognize that.
And so we hold onto our differences, but at the same time, over Thanksgiving, over Christmas. Let's not tell our relatives that they voted wrong because in America people have the right to be wrong. Right. So what we need to do is to exalt Christ above all other things.
Tony: As we head into the next season.
Right. And anytime there's change in political power, w w what is the churches? What are some things that, that Christians can do to usher in unity in the nation that we live in? Because I feel like the culture is divisive and I feel like the. Political landscape is divisive and even the evangelical and more progressive churches.
Like I feel like th th th I feels like the divide is getting bigger and bigger every day. And it, when I look at a lot of my friends who are pastors and we're, you know, we believe different things, it feels like we're getting further and further apart, which just feels so. In opposition to what God's called us to, how does the individual who's listening to this podcast on their treadmill or on their, you know, on their walk or maybe they're raking leaves or whatever, how do they, how do they fight for unity in the church and in their community?
Erwin: Once again, I think it comes down to the individual. You meet with these pastors, you discuss your differences, they have their point of view. You have theirs, you have your own point of view. But you agree now to exalt Christ. I had a friend who worked in Jerusalem and tried to get messianic Jews and Christian Arabs in the same room.
But he said when they were in the same room, the agreement was they would not discuss their differences. They would simply worship Jesus together. And the reason is because. If you get into the issue issue of who owns the land and you know, whether or not the Israelis are treating the Palestinians fairly and so forth.
You're in a no win argument. These are arguments in which facts really don't matter that much on either side. So there are times I think, where you simply have to avoid those differences and say, look, let's worship Jesus together. And and put up with each other.
Tony: Do you find that most Christians are just avoiding the conversation altogether? I mean, how can we how can we encourage Christians to go into these difficult spaces?
Erwin: Well, one of the things we could do, Tony is have them read my new book.
Tony: I would actually, I would suggest not reading it by yourself.
That would be my suggestion is I've now skim through or read most of the book. I will tell you that, that, that this is some heavy lifting that this isn't, this isn't a coffee table book, right? This is this is I've got man. I really gotta think when you dive into. That the sexualization of the children and critical race theory.
And like some of these topics are big topics. I think I stole your answer, but like the idea is that that diving into that, besides diving into the book in groups, what are some ways that we can be courageous in the dialogue?
Erwin: You know, I just want to say that the subtitle of the book it's entitled, we will not be silenced, responding courageously to our culture's assault on Christianity.
Remember, the reason I wrote it is because people are being, Christians are being shamed into silence. When our students, Christian students go to university, they are probably not talked out of their faith. They are mocked out of their faith. Wow. And so what we need to do is to speak, and here's something that we need to learn as a church.
We take the heat. I have a friend who's involved in politics, by the way, as of this podcast. He still does not know whether or not he has won the election. He thinks he will because these ballots are being counted for weeks. But he's, pro-life, he's a deeply committed Christian and lives up to his principles in Springfield, Illinois.
He's in the state Capitol and you should just see. How he is vilified and the mockery and the perversion of who he really is. I mean, it is just awful. And I spoke to him two days ago and he said, yes, it hurts, but what else is he going to do? He has to endure it. His kids have to endure it at school. They get mocked because of their father.
But that's the kind of heat we have to be willing to take. And we in America think that this idea that we can be Christians and live out our Christian life without any pushback. That's an American idea. It's not been true of the church all throughout church history.
Tony: So I'm kind of curious, I B I'm going to make it a little personal for me.
I pastor a United Methodist church here in Ohio. And our denomination is really struggling with cultural issues and how to do that. And they're looking at possibly split splitting in the next year or two. W when you see denominations going through what our denomination is going through, what are some of the thoughts and, and what are some of the things that you think that those leaders need to
Erwin: hear?
Well, first of all, I think that sometimes splits are necessary. In fact, even the apostle Paul talks about the fact that there are divisions that have to take place. So there are fault lines in your denomination that are very important. So what you need to do is to be willing to split. And take the consequences.
I remember talking to a denomination that was on the verge of splitting and I spoke to a pastor and I said, what side are you going to go with? And he said, it depends on the one that holds the the retirement. Yeah,
Tony: the good news is the Methodist figured that out first, we can't figure it out. We can't figure out what, what we believe, but we can figure out that the pension needs to be funded.
Erwin: All right. So I would think that there should be a coalition of pastors who still believe in the truth, the word of God, and we're willing to take the heat and to, you know, be nice about it. But you can't. You can't be part of a denomination that is submitted to the culture, especially when there is pressure on you to submit to the culture.
Now, I don't know you, Tony, we've never met before, except to what you need to do is to stay and for truth and take the consequences and denomination patients, oftentimes are the, are the thing, did you know that the Anglican church in Canada, Tony and I say this in my book, Did a study in which they proved that they will not be in existence in 20 years.
Tony: Wow.
Erwin: Here's what happened. They so submitted to the culture that they had nothing to say to the culture. Mm. And if you're done a nation, so submits to the culture, it has nothing to say to the culture. So it's going to be swallowed up by the culture and, you know, very little will be lost. So, you know, this is a time for you and some other people to say to use the words of a new book, we will not be silenced.
Tony: So let's talk about a year from now, right? A year from now. What is your prayer? What is your hope that this book will do in, in the culture?
Erwin: You know, Tony, I don't know that any book, certainly mine is not going to sway a whole evangelicalism movement, but I'm deeply, I deeply believe that my book is going to have an impact on individual lives.
I think it's going to impact families. I think it's going to impact some pastors who are willing to stand against social justice theories, which are Marxist. You know, as I say in the book, I define biblical social justice, and then the kind that is being taught today, one of the reasons I wrote it is so that parents would know why it is that when they send their kids to university, they come back hating America.
So, how do we speak to this? So I think it's going to have a great impact more individually than it is nationally, but I also hope it's going to give parents the courage to stand up for what they believe and to take the consequences and to realize that historically Christians have always had to do that.
Tony: Pastor. Thank you so much for being so incredibly generous with your time today. I still have one more question to ask you. But I know that my listeners are gonna want to call you on the internet or wherever you're posting things, where where's the best place. If they want to get more of your, your writing, if they want to pick more copies up of your book or your first book he will be the preacher.
All right. Maybe that's not your first book, but the book that you talked about earlier, where's the best place for them to, to start on this journey, to, to read more about some of the work that God's called you to,
Erwin: well, let me talk about this this book, first of course, it's on Amazon and all we will not be silenced, but there are some of your listeners who might want to help us financially.
And so they would purchase it from us. They can go to MC M offer.
Tony: MCM
Erwin: MCM offer. Of course, MCM stands for moody church media, but MCM offer.com. Offer O F E R, but it's all one word.
Tony: And then we'll, we'll link to it in the show notes too.
Erwin: Yep. Right. And my other books, some of them might be on the moody church website, although we're kind of phasing out of that with a new pastor and all go to Amazon type in my name.
And you might be surprised at what comes up. I hope it's a good surprise. I've written a book about Nazi Germany, which has won a, won a gold medallion award. It's entitled a Hitler's cross. Wow. There are books like this, that I've written. The church in Babylon is a book that came out two years ago and you know, other kinds of books that I have written throughout the years.
So. All that is available. Just type my name into Google, and you'll find a lot of books that will come up immediately.
Tony: I love it. I love it. And I'm so thankful for all your time today. I always love to leave the audience with the last question that I ask as an advice question. And so if you could go back to the day that you walked into that church for the very first time and to moody church, and you could pull that young preacher aside before he gives his first message there, what's the one piece of advice that you would give yourself.
Erwin: Looking back over my ministry. I think the one place that I failed was I didn't spend enough time discipling men. I did some of that, but it was spotty. It was now here, we're doing this now here, we're doing that. I really think that the key to the church is the men. If you get the men, you get their wives, you get their children.
And so we had men's ministries. Certainly. But I wish I had spent more time directly building into the lives of the men at moody church. That's one regret I have.
Tony: I love that. And I think it's I think it's one of the ways that we can really impact culture. And so so I gonna encourage all my listeners Find somebody that you can read this book with pick, pick up a copy of a, we will not be silenced and and be sure to dive into what will be a challenging and rewarding read pastor Lutzer.
Thank you so much for spending time with us today. I I've really enjoyed getting to hear more of your story and to dive into some of your writing
Erwin: before I close out a pray for you, Tony, please, father, I pray that you might give Tony wisdom. Hmm. Help him to know where to draw lines, help them to know how to guide his congregation, to point them to the truth, even though it may cost slowly.
And I asked that saying may be upon his ministry. May he have the favor of God and be faithful to the gospel and to your word in Jesus name? I pray.
Amen. Amen. What an incredible dialogue with Dr. Lutzer. I just appreciate his steadfastness. He's got such an incredible tone to him, and I really think it's important for us to wrestle with the idea about whether or not we're submitting to culture.
So my hope is is that this conversation caused you to think a little bit. You may not always agree with something that a guest says, but it's important for us to listen and see where we can learn. So again do me a favor, follow Dr. Or anywhere on social media. If you want to know more, pick up a copy of his book, we will not be silenced.
And as always those rating and reviews go so far to help people find the podcast. I'm really excited about what God has in store for 2021. And I thank you all so much for being on this journey. So a Merry Christmas, if you're listening to this around Christmas time and thank you for being a part of the reclamation community.
