#87: Jennifer Willingham: Create an EPIC Voice
Jennifer Willingham is the CEO and Co-Founder of the EPIC Agency. Jennifer's gift is helping you activate your voice. In our conversation, we talk about what it means to be a Christian leader, why starting now is the best time to start, and how important your voice is to the marketplace.
In addition to that, she has a DIY publicity guide for all my listeners:
Links:
Full Transcript
EP. 87 Jennifer Willingham
Tony: welcome back to the reclamation podcast, where our goal is to help you reclaim good practices for faith and life. I'm Tony. And today is episode 87 of the podcast, and I get to sit down with CEO co-founder and P our extraordinary Jennifer Willingham. Jennifer has worked on movies, books. TV's she worked all over the media outlets and she talks about what it means to find your brand, to find your voice, to be authentic.
And I just thought what an incredible conversation to have heading into a new year, sit down with somebody who can write really help us dial in on what it means to feel. Like we are speaking from our heart in an authentic way. She's also put together an essential do it yourself, publicity guide. I know you're going to love it's free downloadable.
She did it all for you. And I just, I think that you're going to fall in love with this incredible voice in media. So the best comment you can give us, leave us a rating or review, share this episode with a friend. Let Jennifer know what you thought about her on the episode today. And and give her a follow on socials.
Without any further ado. Here's my conversation with Jennifer Willingham. Jennifer, thank you so much for being on the podcast today. It's an honor and a privilege to have you here.
Jennifer: I'm thrilled to be here. I don't know who conned you into having me, but I'm so grateful that they did.
Tony: So you've done work across so many different industries as I was really diving into your experience and your background, movies, books, TVs, TVs, now just TV episodes.
One of the first questions I wanted to ask is what's your favorite type of project to work on to do publicity for it?
Jennifer: Yeah. My favorite kind of project is anytime that there is. A covert spiritual message. And by that, I mean, if it looks on the outside, like it's secular, but there's this underlying spiritual content that we can sort of take it and sort of infiltrate the mainstream world with it.
That's my very, very favorite thing. And so an example of that was a couple of years ago we were working on a film, a Sony called all saints and John Corbett was cast as this pastor as it was a true life story from a little town here in Tennessee, near where I live. And John played the role so beautifully.
People who are listening, who don't know who John is. He had a successful role for many years on a show called sex in the city that I'm sure no one's ever watched that listens to your podcast, but he's like a well-known actor. If he saw his picture, you'd know who he is. And so we just had the most success getting canned and interviews where he would talk about the Lord and it was edifying and humbling.
And so to me, that's like, that's like the pinnacle of what we do is when we can get. To that, that market of people who weren't expecting to hear about Jesus today, but yet they did, they turned on the today show and they didn't know they were going to hear about it, but then they did. And so that's my very, very, very favorite thing to do.
Tony: I love that. I love that. And, and it, it really makes me wonder what it must be like for you as a founder and CEO of a very successful company. That's, that's growing like crazy, even despite the pandemic. And in an industry that's not known for its Christian values, right? If we think about media, we think about.
Hollywood and all, all the different New York city, even like all the different places. How do you live in the tension of being in media and yet holding onto your Christian values?
Jennifer: Well, the good news is it's pretty easy for us because as a company, we only take on projects that are purpose driven by that.
I mean, kingdom centered, God center, Jesus centered. And so they might look like they're not, but they. I'll have a worldview where we don't take it. So, you know, I'm always sort of girded by that. So we don't, we aren't there working with with projects that would be hard to keep those virtues and values, but we are in those world with those people.
And so I actually counted as a privilege because even just today, this happened and we're put in situations where just by being who we are, you don't have to be fake or phony or put on or preach. You just live. Who God's created you to be and your salt and light in a space that is so dark, that they can't help, but recognize that you're different.
And I've been asked a number of times over the 26 years. I've been doing this. Hey, wait, what's different about you? Why did you do that? Why did you say that? And so oftentimes the Holy spirit will open up a door for someone who. Is not even intending to have a spiritual conversation and they ask like a work question, like, why are you different?
Why do you handle this this way? Why are you different than everybody else? Or these people that I've known? And it gives me the opportunity to just tell them why. And you know, I think what is that cliche? I'm gonna mess up. Preach, use words if necessary, right? Like it feels like we're just living out who we are and who we're made to be like, you don't have to think about it.
Tony: Now you've you created this company from scratch. It's, you know, it's your baby. How do you, how did you develop a culture that says we're going to be kingdom minded and, and yet still get the best people that you can get. Cause you're, I mean, your team is incredible. I've had the privilege of working with so many of them and they've, they've helped bring some incredible authors on the podcast, which I'm super thankful for.
And You know, how do you create that culture that promotes kingdom mindedness without, you know? Yeah,
Jennifer: that's a good question. So I think for us, you know, when we started Epic However long it's been now, we had a core group of five people that started. And so the core of those people had worked together another agency.
And when do we want to do something different? And so we sort of launched it together and we developed the idea for the culture together as a group, which I think is a lot easier than just a single person. And then, you know, adding each person on us now we have 15 people and, you know, I think culture is one of the hardest things.
To maintain and manage because you're dealing with people from all walks of life, all backgrounds I think that someone who, someone who is not a Christian would be welcome to work here. They would probably be a little uncomfortable though or they'd be drawn to it. So we, we have to walk a fine line with And we, we are a small business suite, employ people.
We have to abide by all of the, the legal guidelines. And also we are very clear about our purpose and our mission. And so we, we need a certain sort of background in our workers to accomplish that mission. And so the Lord has really done it. We haven't, and. It's just doing the right thing at all times.
And so with our team, we emphasize ownership and obviously teamwork. But I think if I had to look at any one principal and say, this is what's worked for us it would probably be trust. And so some of us came out of a sort of hairy situation together in the early days. And so there was this distrust that we had for each other.
And so as we've added new people to the team, we just we're authentic with each other. We're humble. We. Admit shortcomings really easily here, which is not anything I've done anywhere else. And then we just really believe that it takes all of us to get it done. And so the trust that we developed among our team, I think is the real key to, to having everybody sort of row in the same direction.
And we believe also in a greater purpose, it's not just about. What am I doing today? What is Molly doing today? What is Jeff doing today? It's about what is our greater purpose? What is our, why as a team and what are we trying to do? And so that sort of recenters us, even on the days when things are going wrong.
Tony: When did you fall in love with the idea of lifting up other voices? I feel like that's a very special gift. And, and for 26 years you've been doing it and a lot of different ways. Is that something that was born inside of you? And if so, you know, when could you first put your finger on the pulse of like, yep.
I want to help that person get their message out.
Jennifer: That's a great question. And I think that. I think for me, I probably was there all along and I didn't discover it until I was in college. And I looked into an insurance ship at a publisher, Thomas Nelson and I got there and I was like, they are going, gonna.
Let me for free because it wasn't paid. They're going to be for free write stuff and work with authors and tell people how great the books are. Okay. I'm a speed reader. It's one of my talents. So that job is super easy for me because I can read and write
Tony: how many, how many books do you think you read in a year?
Jennifer: I mean, probably more than 400. Holy smokes. Now, keep in mind. I work. I work with probably a hundred in addition to those, like, I am always reading, so I have a library here and I'm the problem with me is I can't always remember what I've read, especially when I speed read it. So I have to keep the books and I have to go back to where I've highlighted and made notes.
And so yeah, I think that I discovered though in college that I was like, this is a really cool. Vocation and a calling. And so I discovered that I was well-suited for it. And then the Lord just handled it all from there. And so I've really never had to think about it. The Lord has just got in my career from day one and you know, it's like a marketplace ministry.
So I've worked for Christian companies. I worked for super secular companies and I've counted it all as a personal ministry.
Tony: Has there been one project out of the 26 years? This is like picking your favorite child? I don't know if there's any, is there one project that is like, if, if that's the, like, that was your favorite, maybe not, maybe not the most successful, cause I don't even know how you quantify that in some of the areas, but you're like, yes, that was it.
Jennifer: I have a couple of little favorite children. One of them was a film. That I would never call super cinematic, like greatness. It was called. God's not dead. And if you've seen it, I mean, the plot is really interesting. And that was one of the earlier films that we worked on. And the reason why I love that film is because I think that the, the concept of that stirred up in awakening and people.
Thirsty go see something that affirmed there values. And so that really helped me understand the film space and particularly the faith based consumer really, really well, even more than I had to that point. And the thing that was cool to me was when we were number one that weekend at the box office is really hard to do for any film, much less a Christian film, but no named actors.
And that was the top. Grossing independent film of any kind of that year, which is hard to do. All the newscasters and they cover like in breaking news and entertainment, a film called God's not dead is all talk at the box office this weekend. And what I loved about that was, you know, these, these anchors who are so far away in many cases from being of the Lord or being aware of any of this subculture, even, or having to say the phrase, God's not dead out loud.
And so that went on for weeks. And so I just got a secret pleasure every time that they had to say the name of the movie, and then. Secondarily. I will say that anytime we are honored to work with the Kendrick brothers, it's a dream come true. I mean, they are just amazing, you know, brothers in Christ and I just adore them to pieces as men, as leaders, as filmmakers and.
We're working on something with them right now, which is super exciting that can't talk about. But coming fall, we're going to have a lot of fun with them again. So, you know, we're excited, it's fun and all projects. I look to do a couple of different things with every project I work on. I look to learn something from it, whether it's, you know, a great lesson or a unfortunate lesson, I try to learn.
Cause I don't like to stand still. And then also try to be sure. That I leave, whatever it is better than I found it. So if it's an author, who's got a big track record. Now, how can I not only promote this thing, but also move the platform ahead a little bit before I leave it. And so those are the two things I try to accomplish in addition to the deliverables on anything that we work on.
Tony: Oh, I love that. I'm curious. Have you ever taken a spiritual gifts test? Do you remember what your spiritual gifts are? I'm wondering if evangelism just seems like it just pours out of your core. I'm wondering if that is.
Jennifer: Yeah. So the great commission is really important to me. And so a couple of years ago, I almost mentioned this project to you when you asked me that last question, but we were honored enough to work with Nicole and Paul's ministry.
They did this big thing at Texas motor Speedway called together. We had worked on a DC event. Nick had done in 2016 and we had the goal was to have like a million people at the mall national mall in DC. I think we have 500,000. So we were halfway there and it was like the hottest day of the summer. And the city started down, but when we were in Texas, I remember I think it was.
It was a closing band. We had a day, a great day full of bands and speakers on stage and Priscilla shower, Ravi Zacharias lots of big names were there. And then I think it was Hillsong that closed out Kevin Beth abiding with Hillstone that closed out. And I remember feeling at that moment, like a chain, like a sea change in me.
And I just realized. That I was even like, I was doubling down in my spirit that was doubling down that I would rededicate myself to things that only serve the great commission and, you know, John Erwin, another filmmaker that I worked with has really, it was really inspirational. In that regard to me early on, because he's super passionate about the great commission and what would it be like to achieve that in our lifetime?
And so that sort of stuck. And then something happened watching that performance that night at Texas motor Speedway. And it literally felt like I was levitating. I'm a church of Christ girl. I'm super conservative. I don't have those kinds of experiences. I don't know why I'm sharing it now. But I felt like something special had happened.
So on the plane ride home the next day, and I was praying and I'm weeping and I'm sure people thought I was nuts, but I was literally writing down all the ways that I could increase, how we could help achieve the great commission in our lifetime. And so that's been, it's been a renewed passion for me.
Tony: I love that.
I love that. And we're, we're we're big fans of disciple-making here at the reclamation podcast. So I'm interested for somebody who's a high capacity leader. Who's reading over 400 books a year. How do you stay rooted in your own faith so that you have something to give out of? W what are your, what are your daily disciplines?
What are your practices? What are your, like, can't negotiate on this, no matter what.
Jennifer: Yeah. That's the hardest, right? And so For me. I know I've slipped when I have them knowledge in my head, but I no longer feel it in my heart. And so I know that I've got to reconnect somewhere when I can say the words about no longer feel the words because.
If I were a doctor and I was curing strep throat all day long, at some point I have that memorized. Right. And that just muscle memory. Oh, let's do the strep test and you have strep and I'm going to diagnose you and treat you. And it's all good. So sometimes I feel myself going into that sort of rote thing at work, because it's just like, it's, I can no longer separate it anymore.
And then when I realized that my heart's disconnected is when I have to stop and go, have I been doing and my daily disciplines. And so I. I have a devotional that I do every day, first five. And, but doing that for a couple of years I really love it. And you know, when I miss it, I realize I missed it cause I'm, I'm a little disconnected.
And then also the way that I stay grounded in the faith is just to be super honest with my husband and with people that work with that I'm really close to when I feel that disconnection happened. And so for me, the busy-ness the lure of what I can accomplish. Always wants to pull me away from sort of sitting at the feet of Jesus.
And so I fight that battle every single day, because you know, for me, it's way more exciting. Let's get up and let's do it versus, okay, wait a minute. Let me sit here and let me, let me soak first. Can I soak it in first and let me get right first? So I just it's a battle I'm constantly finding it, so that, and then I think for me to self care is really important.
So. No, have I made Tom for myself and it's not just a spiritual discipline, it's physical as well, but I try to pay attention to those things way more now in my forties than I'd ever had to do before.
Tony: Yeah. Something we say around here a lot is that if you're not dedicated to your disciplines, you'll be destroyed by your distractions.
Jennifer: Oh, that's a good one. I'm going to steal that. It's so good,
Tony: please. Please do. Please do. And it sounds like you've got your disciplines kind of at least, you know, where the guardrails are, right? So that you don't go off the, off the road because I don't know about you, but I'll bump back and forth on those guard rails.
Jennifer: And I give myself grace to do that though, because the other thing that I have going on at three kids, and I've got a husband, who's a fireman. So he's here. Two days and gone for a whole 24 hours. And so, you know, I'm juggling a lot instead of
Tony: like a fire captain, isn't he fire captain in Nashville, which that's no, I mean, that's not like I'm not, you know, I love him.
I love my little town here in Centerville, but Nashville scales a little bit differently. So that's, I mean, that's got to be full of fear and like,
Jennifer: So he was a Marine before he was a fire captain. Instead he served in the Gulf war. So I figured that the Lord does have a purpose for his life. And so he loves him more than I do.
And so obviously I pray for safety and I never have a moment's worry.
Tony: That is awesome. I love that.
Jennifer: Thank goodness. Right.
Tony: Well, it just shows that God really knew what he was doing when he brought you guys together.
Jennifer: I mean, my husband's fearless and his anxiety junkie, I mean, sorry, adrenaline junkie.
So he will definitely push the limits. So I, in fact, we're having him a bunch of the guys over this weekend for Christmas and I'm sure they'll tell me stories. I've never heard before. That I wish I could just never hear because he never tells me the risks that he runs into. And I prefer not to know.
And so for him, he had disciplines too in his life. And so it's important that he take care of his body. So when each of us, when either one of us feel like maybe we are being a little bit fuzzy in the disciplines and the guidelines, you know, we're there to, to help keep each other accountable.
Tony: Now to two parents that are leaders.
How, how do you guys dial in the kids? Family-wise do you guys have, do you guys have any practices that you guys do as a family in order to stay rooted in, in both your faith and in your connectedness? Cause I, I would imagine with two parents that are, are leading pretty big movements, I'll be at separate, but you know, like it can be really easy to get caught up in, you know, The, the, the mission that God's put you guys on.
Jennifer: Yeah, it can be. And I think as a family too, you know, we have a big age range here. We have a 17 year old girl, a 15 year old girl and a four year old girl that was just this late in life, unexpected blessing. He was so much joy. And so we have to sort of try to do it separately with each girl. And so that sort of does fall to me as the mom has sort of become the leader of the pack here.
And so we make a practice to, we have daily check-ins. No, just random stuff too. How was your day is necessarily have to be a deep spiritual conversation every night. But then we also do like the spiritual check-ins like, you know, what are you learning? What are you reading? And so we try to be sure that also because our church has they've reopened because of, for COVID, but there are a lot of families including us that have not yet gone back in person.
And I hope to do that really soon. It has been more challenging now without that to be intentional about how do we talk about faith and be sure people are growing. And so that is one of the chores or the privileges I should say on my to-do list for 2021 is to come up with more of a, like a home-based curriculum.
That is faith centered that. We can talk. So give, give me some additional, a grid to go by, to have intentional conversations going, facing one. Who's going to be leaving the nest and fall 20, 22 for college. And so what are the experiences and what are the talks we for sure need to have before, you know, she's launched into the world and then for the two that are here, you know, how can I be sure that we're all growing together and growing individually in our relationship with Jesus.
And that is literally the hardest job that I have.
Tony: Yeah. Yeah, because kids are so confusing and there all the time, they just. Oh, there's just a lot. I have a, I have a eight year old princess and then I have two boys. And so we're not quite the experts and raising strong women. Like I would imagine that you guys are do you have any tips for me as we hit those tween years?
Jennifer: Just love him. You know, that's the only tip and everything else. I'm sure. There's great expertise out there, but the thing that I've found that works most, which I want to do the least sometimes, and just love them. Because, you know, sometimes you're so fed up, you want to lecture and he was scold and you want to pounded into them.
But you know, really they don't need that. They just need you to love them.
Tony: I would imagine that that same sediment has kind of rang true leading a business during the midst of the pandemic. Like you just have to love it. Well, what's that been like for you? I know for me, just trying to shepherd the church here has been some of the heaviest, you know, hardest moments that it's been really hard to love the church through the pandemic because.
Okay. Because, well, because of all the things that, you know, right. Everything you do is politicized, and if you mandate mass, then you feel this way. If you don't mandate mass, then you feel this way. And it's like, ah, how's that experience been like for you? And how has Epic managed to grow in this weird season of, of,
Jennifer: yeah, that's a good question.
So I'm really grateful in an odd way for the pandemic, which is a controversial statement. I will explain it. It forced us to be very, very focused on what I call blocking and tackling as a business. And so I have to be very clear in my communication with our team. So you don't have the luxury in times like this, whether you're a pastor or a leader of a business to be unclear anymore.
So you have to, it forces you to think because sometimes it's easy to pop off with a statement. Maybe about mask wearing maybe about something else and not really give it thought, but this has really taught us to be more deliberate than ever. And as a result of that, I think our team is thriving.
Everybody's very clear and centered on where we are and where we're going. What are our deliverables? So the pandemic forces as a business to focus on the essential tasks that we think make our business run and as a result and because of the Lord's blessing we have been successful. So I don't think any of this way.
It'd be possible without the Lord's favor, for sure. And I don't know how people can run a business, honestly, without the Holy Spirit's guide. Right. So I just, I'm so grateful that it's not based on my knowledge, my intellect or my strength, because we would fail. And it's great knowing that my business partner, Jeff feels the same way.
And that our entire team is like-minded because we know at the end of the day, We do work. Like everything depends on us, but we know that any success that any of us have is not because of us because the Lord's granted it.
Tony: Let's talk a little bit about the voice, right? Because when the pandemic really kicked off, I did what so many other people did and we started putting out more and more contents and content-based marketing is, you know, was.
Was really heavy especially in March and April. And then we, you know, we just kept thinking, we're going to get back to old person, old in-person church. I don't mean old as an eight, the way that we've always done it. Right. And how, how do you challenge the people that you're working with? Or how do you challenge the listeners who have something that they want to say?
Cause this is really where your, your sweet spot is, is empowering people to use their voice. How do we. You know, delineator distinguish our voices in a very crowded, crowded world that we're living in.
Jennifer: I think the mistake most people make is trying to be something to everyone. And by that, I mean maybe your topic that you've been called to speak about is a niche topic.
You know, maybe it's not supposed to be on good morning America. Maybe it's not supposed to be on 700 club. Maybe it's. Something very specific that only this subset of people need to hear it or should hear it. And I think the, that, I think there's an ego in a lot of us, me included that thinks, Oh, everybody needs to know this well, I have found that most times when someone says this book or this film or this thing is for everybody, what that means is, is it, it is for no one because no one will ever know about it or see it.
And so being honest about your audience is the first step, and then second doing everything in your power to reach that audience. And so this is a great example of that. I was reminded recently that there are a lot of things you can do when you have zero budget. And so. A lot of the clients, we work with our big clients.
They have big budgets, but my heart is really with the entrepreneurs or the pastors of the business leaders. They don't have any budget to speak up. They're like, well, I have no dog in this hunt. I'm left behind. Everybody can do something else. So there is a client of ours. His name is Rob Kenny, and he has this delightful YouTube channel that blew up overnight into like 3 million subscribers called dad.
How do I. And it's like the fishes and loaves concept. He was shooting it like on this, you know, old phone. I'm sure it was iPhone. The the production value is just homemade. And his daughter went onto a internet site called Reddit, R ADT, Reb, DIT, and started posting in a couple of like college groups or millennial groups.
And those people fell in love with her dad. Because he was teaching them how to tie a tie, how to make a dinner. And he, his dad left the family when he was 12. And so he realized there might be other people who didn't also have a father figure to teach them how to change a tire or how to change their oil.
And so he did this channel and these people found it and it was like the most brilliant, spontaneous guerrilla marketing I've ever seen. And you know, that humbled me, Tony, in that moment, I was like, I forgot for a second, but you could actually get somewhere And you don't have to spend thousands or millions of dollars.
You can just tell the people who really are the, the group, the tribe, tell the tribe about the thing and they will be attracted to it. And so it was a real good lesson about niche, the value of niches and that, that client of ours has gone on to a huge publishing deal. And his book is launching in April.
So we're super thrilled for him and that more people will. Become become to know his interesting brand of advice and counsel. And of course he's a believer out of Washington state, so we're thrilled for his success.
Tony: That's awesome. And it kind of, it actually parallels really well with your, you kind of have this new resource guide out the essential do it yourself publicity guide what prompted you to, to put out this free resource and, and how is what's the role of social media in In publicity.
Jennifer: Yeah. So I was prompted to put that guide out because the bin and brothers asked me to speak at their expert ownership live conference, like their virtual online thing. And what was funny to me is I was so honored because some of the people I had worked with over the years, including John Maxwell were also speakers at this event.
And I was like, this is so strange and surreal that I, my little picture is it's just weird. Right. And but it was humbling because I truly believe. If I could talk to everybody in the world and tell them, I don't care who you are or what fishes and loaves you have, you can make a difference in your business or church or enterprise today through these simple steps.
And most people think of publicity or media as, Oh, it's only for famous people. No, it's not. It's for you. And there's a few simple, simple tips that I give and that guide that anybody can do. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to do it. So it was really motivated to give sort of a. It's sort of a guide if you will, for people who want to understand that more, because I believe it is the best marketing tool in the world bar none.
And then secondarily social media to your other part of the question is really important as well. And so I think that what I'm seeing now as being in this industry for a long time, I've seen this gradual does blurring together. Of all of these disciplines. And so one thing sort of blurs into another. So I think let's say that you were on your, let's say that your town has a TV station, has a local news show like we do here called talk of town.
If you book yourself on that and talk about, you know, whatever volunteer thing you're doing at your church you will get a ton of people that have never darkened your door before to come. And so everything in a teach, how to sort of pitch it as a solution everything should be solution-based because people really only care about what's in it for them these days.
So learning to speak that language. And so when you harness something like that and you get some earned media, you get some publicity, you then immediately take that, hit that, clip that whatever it is and put it on your social media channel. To amplify the reach. And so if you do those things in tandem with each other, then all of a sudden, guess what you are now a marketer.
So you might be a pastor, but you're also a marketer. You might be a homemaker who makes, who knits scarves. But now congratulations, you're a marketer, so anybody can do it. And if people could just believe in themselves, it fires me up. I just want to hug everybody and tell them they're smart enough and they're worth it, that they can do it.
Tony: I love that. How do you, and we talked a little bit about this before we press record, how do we deal with that Christian? I'm going to use maybe guilt or that Christian, like hesitation or even just, you know, I, I feel it here, obviously with this podcast is, you know it's really hard to not feel like I'm just constantly talking about.
Myself on social media. And I don't want, I have no desire to be that celebrity pastor, but I believe that if people grow closer to Jesus, it it'll change their life. Right. And I'm caught in that tension. It feels all the time.
Jennifer: Yeah. I think a couple of things that I advise when, cause I have a lot of clients who deal with this a lot of pastor clients in fact, to deal with this and even some mega pastors who still struggle because it feels like, Oh my goodness, it just, our people couldn't get the X factor.
Well, first of all, you, you own it. You say guys, the reason why I'm talking about this is not because it's about me, it's about you. And here's what this can do for you. And so the more that you personalize it for your audience and show them the solution that you have for them. You're serving them. And so once you make the leap in your brain of owning it and then serving not selling everything changes.
So I said to you earlier, you know, how much do you have to hate people to not really go after them and tell them what you have for them, right? Like you must really not like bulks in your community. If you aren't shouting what you can do for them or what your church can do for them from the rooftop.
And if more people can embrace that and be bold, maybe we could have already changed the world. You know, even as Christians. So if I haven't personally witnessed to my neighbors, what's holding you back. I mean, how much do I have to hate my neighbors? Not tell them what Jesus has already done for them on the cross.
Right? So obviously there's, you have to use wisdom and you have to lean into your discernment and you, you can't you probably can't walk around town with a sandwich board. People would think you're maybe a little strange and you might lose loosened folks, but you know, within, within some guidelines of wisdom, I think that you should be fearless.
And telling people about how you can change their lives. And really the author of that is Jesus. Who gave you the gifts?
Tony: Yeah, I love it. What's a practical example of serving not selling look like as, and that may be on the spot. Right. But like, I'm kind of curious about somebody listening here and maybe they God's put a message on their heart about, you know, a small group ministry or they, they own their own business even, or, you know, and they're, they're trying to be.
To use their platform, however, big or small it is. What does serving not selling look like? Yeah.
Jennifer: So I've got this really, really, really smart client who is super well-known and of the world of finance. And I trained him. He allowed me to train him a while back some media training. And so he was really good at it, but.
He was still thinking, he wrote a book, he was still thinking he was supposed to sell a book. So in my book and my book in my book, I was like, no, we don't, we're not going to say that what we're going to do instead is talk about what you had to offer as a solution. And then at the very end, you're going to say, you know, if you need a solution for, you know, I'm giving that information away in my book or I'm the information contained in my book, whatever the truth is.
And that was like a light bulb moment for him. And so. Authors don't want to say a thousand times an interview. Well, I detailed in my book how you can lose weight or you can do whatever the thing is. So I actually forbid them. Usually they even say the word book more than one time in the interview. Like just don't say the word.
Instead let's talk about the solution because it is always more powerful when people understand the solution. So. That that's. I wish I could tell you more, for example, without giving away his identity. But seeing him now give interviews, he serves because he's not so busy, focused on my book available at Amazon can teach you to death.
He now is like, Hey, I'm in my book. I'm giving you the solution to understanding how to lead a life of legacy. So. And if he says the name, once people are going to be hanging, like, okay, what is that solution? What is that called? People are going to be dying to know what it is versus bored out of their mind.
Here's another author they're talking head trying to sell a book. So also I think people can tell when you mean it. So when you are sincere and you want that transformation for them, you know, you want them to come to Christ or you want them to have a better marriage or you want them to do, you know, whatever the thing is that you can help them with.
They, they feel it. When they know that you mean it. And I think that that comes across and it, the cool thing about especially TV is Toni, that studies have shown that people who are watching at home like 55% remember body language, right. Only. So there's a statistic that I'm losing here about how many of the words are retained, but typically.
Most people remember how that person on TV made them feel that person's seem calm. Did they seem collected? Did they seem like they had it together? And that informs way more of their judgment about you than the actual words that you said. So if people can feel that you mean it for them and you want them to win, they will be attracted to you and how you're serving them.
And so authenticity is something that cannot be faked. It can not be manufactured. You either have it, or you do not have it. And there's nobody like me that can give it to you. So you have to really work on it and hone it over time until you believe it. And then you can give it away.
Tony: Do you have to say no to clients who don't have that authenticity to be like, yeah, I just don't think I can.
I mean, do you have to like that, that was my first thought is like, well, what do you do in your role? When somebody comes in to say, I want to pay you a lot of money to represent my brand, but I have a really hard time being authentic.
Jennifer: We haven't run into too many situations like that. And so I believe that nobody is beyond redemption in a lot of a lot of situations, but I'll also, if there ha there have been a few occasions where someone, for whatever reason would not have been a great spokesperson and then maybe not the authenticity factor, maybe they were something else.
And so we, we will never. Book someone for earned media or pitch them. If we don't believe they're going to be an effective spokesperson, but the good news is as an agency, we call ourselves a results agency. We offer way more than just earned media. And so we can often pivot and use their email list or use social media or do something else that can serve their intended audience without actually relying on them as a person.
And so that's typically the route where we would pivot and go that in that other direction.
Tony: That's a good question. One of the things we talk about a lot in the disciple-making process here at restoration is we talk about looking for somebody who's fat, faithful available teachable. And I think that in your world that that's probably the same thing.
You want someone who's going to, you know, like you're giving tools that it's still up to the person who's wants to use their brand to a certain extent to, to do that part faith and be faithful available teachable make, when, you know, we're always looking for fat people around here.
Jennifer: That is so funny. I'm gonna have to use that too.
So we do have clients every, every now and then who don't want to be teachable. Right? So we usually self-select out of that relationship and are very honoring. Obviously you do that because we want the best for them. And if they, I don't think it's best for them to pay us money and not take our advice.
So if, if they if we're not able to serve them, I hope they, I try to help them to find someone who can. Yeah, I love
Tony: that. I love that. And it's important, right? It's important to be honest in the relationship, like, it's not, you it's me. This is just not going to work based off of what I need. And I think that's important for all of us to, you know, some of us are probably hanging onto some relationships.
We need to self select out of them.
Jennifer: Totally. We all do it. But I think that the other thing that we're known for here as being truth tellers. So, you know, I have, I have clients who specifically come to me because they know. But I will tell them the unvarnished truth and I'll say I would love, and it's tenderly as I can, but that's specifically what they're looking for because sometimes, you know, they might be pastors and they might have a big staff and they might not feel like maybe people are telling them the unvarnished truth.
And so it's, it's really, it's easier for me to be in that role because. You know, I don't start at the pleasure of the pastor in those situations. So it's easier for me to be truthful.
Tony: That's a, that's a, that's a great point. You got to have people in your circle who are willing to love you enough to tell you the truth and, and don't need you for anything else
Jennifer: right
Tony: now.
Like it, because the reality is, is. You know, Epic's going to be fine either way. Right. And it's probably going to hurt you more if you don't tell the truth in the long run,
Jennifer: that's good. He does. And then it frees you up because then you've known you've done everything you were accountable to do. You've told the truth and love.
And honestly, sometimes it's an opinion and you lead with that. Like, you know, this is not scientific fact. This is my opinion of the situation. Your mileage may vary, go and choose it. So as long as you know, we know that the end of the day we have. We have honored with the Lord has called us to do in that situation than everybody sleeps really well here.
Tony: Now, one of the things about the truth is with the social media world that we live in, there's a lot of truth that's oftentimes thrown around. That is actually just a, it could be opinion at times, right? Like,
So I, one of the, one of the things that I was dying to ask you is how do you counsel people on the trolls in their life?
You know, that, that, because there's always going to be trolls and people who want to share their opinion. Cause you know, you know, you're a content creator when you put your content out there it's a vulnerable moment, you know, like when you're preaching or teaching or writing something and you put it out there and then all of a sudden, you know, Bob from Wapakoneta, you know, decided he was going to unleash his while your hair tech theology on your or whatever the case is.
How, how do you tell your clients and how have you, because you know, you're kind of a, you're a leader in the community, right? How have you dealt with
Jennifer: trolls? So, first of all with clients and we have sort of two reactions to that, we either get angry. Clients are like, Oh my goodness, can't leave.
So-and-so said that I'm going to block them. W w I want you to call them. I want you to reach out to them. And secondly, you know, we get the tearful thing as, Oh my goodness. They've hurt my feelings so much. I can't believe they said that on my platform. So I remind them that whatever the person said is way more about that person who said it.
Than it is about necessarily them, that they have provoked a response. And then I'll also ask them, is it true? Is there anything that is truthful and what they've said? So with scriptural issues, which we can interpret sometimes differently than our brother or sister it's often really a useful activity to just think about that for a second and just re-examine your position and why you have the position that you have and every now and then someone brings up a really good sort of thing you forgot about or something you don't want to think about.
And so I think that it's taking from the comment, anything that's good or useful and leaving anything that is not there on the playing field. And you just go on about your business, because if the Lord has called you to serve or to speak or to teach or to write you need to do that to the best of your ability.
And you know what, some days you might miss the Mark. Mean, maybe you posted something that is maybe not super reflective of what you meant to say. So then you then have the ability to make the decision to alter the content, take it down, whatever I don't ever advise in sort of getting into it. He said, she said on social.
So if there's someone who brings up something about your content that offends them, I think it's totally okay to reach out in order to. Have a greater understanding of whatever their opinion is, if you'd like to. And then if there, you already know that they're all faced and it's not going to yield much for you, then I think it's fine just to keep, keep on scrolling.
I wish more people had the self restraint to just keep on scrolling. Instead we want to just attack our neighbor. I had a guy I don't even know. You came to my Facebook page a couple months ago. He wanted to argue with me and drop a couple of F bombs on my personal Facebook page. And I was like, dear John, I don't know you.
I don't allow that kind of language here. And first of all, truthfully, I can argue with people I already know and have a relationship with. So I'm not going to argue with a stranger on the internet. And I've got enough of that here. And so he blocked me, came on my page and then he wound up blocking me.
So,
Tony: yeah,
Jennifer: right. Yeah. The side of the times. So I think you can't take it personally, but we need to extract every bit of goodness out of those comments, because sometimes there are nuggets of goodness there, but you've got to be secure enough to examine it, to see if there is before you just, you know, wholesale discarded.
Tony: I love that. I love that. One of the other things I love that you guys do at Epic is use the hashtag. We are Epic. And and if, if you're listening, I just invite you to go over to Instagram or wherever you'd like to scroll for things. And hashtag we are Epic and see some of the content you're putting out.
I, it feels like there's so much emotion. When I read that hashtag we are at Epic and I, I now knowing you a little bit, it feels like that that's a rally cry. How did you guys come to this? Like This hashtag. And what does it mean from your perspective?
Jennifer: I would love to say we did a lot of market research, Tony and through a very exhaustive search have came up with the very best hashtag honestly, it was Jeff's gut reaction because Epic, like hashtag Epic was taken for better things.
And so it was like one of those things we find ourselves in, in the, in this century of social media and all the good stuff's gone. So sort of like our Epic dot Inc. URL. So epic.com was taken and everything else was like a bazillion dollars. We wanted something really short it's. Okay. Fun. Epic, not ink. It is.
So I think that the, we are Epic. I've worried about that a little bit. So I'm glad that you asked me about that. I don't want anyone to ever, ever, ever feel like that says we're all that in a bag of chips, what that really is is we, the team are like, we're this together. We are. You could call it. We are Nike.
We are Publix. We are Kroger. That's just who we are as a team. That's our little tribe. Our name is Epic. So it doesn't, it is not intended to be like a double entendre that we're super great. And you know, naming is a hard, hard, hard art. And it, it the, our last company that I co founded was named icon.
So it's. It is hard to find a name that can in a couple of letters, signifies something interesting. And so I don't know that we've got it right necessarily with the, we are Epic hashtag, but I'm grateful that it has at least provoked some interest. And I do think that people will look at our content.
They'll find there. The heart behind it. And they'll see that we do strive to be humble. We do strive to be servants in the kingdom and you know, we do exist amplify everybody. Else's voices. We're not here to hear them.
Tony: Well, I, you know, it's interesting because. I never thought of the idea of you guys calling yourself at Epic.
So I w whoever's creating your content out there on your team. They're doing a great job because when I read it, what I heard was is like, you know, the people who are in our brand, the people who are on our team, the people who we, it seems like get the privilege to again, serve and not sell. We're serving them.
We're not telling them they W, you know, we are at Beck, you know, we, you know, we are, we are both, and it just feels really good from, from just an outsider's
Jennifer: perspective. I will give Jeff a high five and tell them it came from you. That's awesome.
Tony: So anything that you wanted to talk about that we didn't cover?
We covered about a million different things.
Jennifer: I know we did. It's been so good. You've asked so many good questions. I would just say, if anybody's listening to this. And they have something they feel they are called to achieve or do I would say stop, dreaming and start doing why not you? I think that most people struggle with mindset issues and it's not a lack of qualification.
It's not a lack of talent. It's not usually a lack of resources. That's a lie. We tell ourselves, I think most of the time. We don't believe in ourselves. And so we know that scripture tells us how do we, how can we do all things, Tony, you can fill in the blank. We do all things through Christ who strengthens us.
And so I certainly don't think that makes me believe I could meet astronauts tomorrow, but I do think what that means is that I can certainly accomplish extraordinary things in the name of Jesus that will better the planet and leave it better than I found it. And I think that. We spend so much time on the sidelines, worrying about that thing, dreaming about that thing that we just need to get up and do it.
And so hopefully. If you are a small business owner or an entrepreneur some of these tips we've shared today will help you because I really want people to feel empowered to do it for themselves, everything in the world today, basically besides heart surgery is DIY let's just face it. There's, there's almost anything today that you want to do.
You can learn how to do. And I just encourage people to, I mean, come visit us, ask us if you have questions, we are always glad to share our expertise for free. And I just. I encourage that person listening today that needs to feel that confirmation. Don't Terry do it. I love
Tony: that. I love that. If our friends want to follow you on the interwebs, where's the, the best place to learn more about you and about Epic.
Jennifer: That's great. Our website's Epic dot Inc. They can find me at Jen Willingham on Instagram and Jennifer Willingham on Facebook. And then You know, we are Epic on Instagram as well, so we'd love to connect and hear from them. But thank you, Tony. You're such a great interviewer, man. I love how your podcast is bloated.
Oh, well, thank
Tony: you. Thank you. Thank you. Now I do have one final question to ask you. It's the last question I always love to ask people. It's an advice question to yourself. So I want you to go back and talk to the intern. Who's getting ready to start at Thomas Nelson. First day, you're looking at yourself in the mirror.
If you could go back and talk to that younger version of yourself, what's the one piece of advice that you give yourself
Jennifer: hands down. It's don't overthink it hands down. Don't overthink it. So many of us probably. Especially women even really accomplished women, overthink everything. So it's like analysis paralysis.
And so I would just reinforce to her that I value making mistakes. Way more than I thought I would have back in those days. Don't be terrified of making mistakes. Failure is not final, which I think I'm stealing that from my friend John Maxwell. But I do think that don't ever think it is something everybody should tell themselves at least once a day.
Tony: That's beautiful and a wonderful place to end Jennifer, thank you so much for your time today and for being so generous, we're going to link to the essential, do it yourself, publicity guide. So make sure you pick up your copy. I've already downloaded mine. It's really helpful, really helpful. And I just appreciate all that you're giving into the community.
Jennifer: No. Thanks Tony pleasure to be here. Blessings,
Tony: Jennifer, just incredible. I think she's such an important voice and I love the way that she is a company owned by a Christian and versus overtly being a Christian company. I think that's so important for so many of us to live into our faith, wherever God had us planted.
And I know Jennifer is doing that at Epic. Also follow Epic on social media. They have a great hashtag. We are Epic or. Hashtag totally Epic, some really fun things happening there and their company. And a lot of the interviews that I get from for the reclamation podcasts come from the Epic agency. So really great authors there.
You can already tell just by the way, Jennifer has created this culture in her business. Again, thank you so much for being a part of our community. Leave that rating or review. It really does help people find us, share the episode wherever you can. It means the world to me, we read every single one of them.
Thank you so much. And I look forward to connecting with you guys real soon.
