#116: Major General John Gronski (US Army, Retired): Iron Sharpened Leadership
I love sitting down with great leaders! In this conversation, I get to chat with John Gronski, who recently released Iron Sharpened Leadership. We talk about character, values, and the importance of relationships.
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EP. 116
Tony: Hey everybody! Welcome back to the Reclamation Podcast, where our goal is to help you reclaim good practices for faith and life. My name is Tony, and today is episode one 16 of the podcast. I get to sit down with major general retired John grants. Now John has written a brand new resource called iron sharpens leaf.
I love his quote. It is the people, not things who nurture. And our conversation today, we talk about character. We talk about competence. We talk about resilience and all the things that I love his approach. And he's such a good voice for this season of leaders that I'm in. And I know that that you're probably in as well.
So Hey, do me a favor. Go ahead and hit that subscribe button, wherever you're listening to podcasts, leave a rating or review on iTunes. We're trying to get to a hundred by the end of the year. And if you could share this episode with a friend. The highest compliment you can give us, Hey, I don't know if you knew this or not, but we're part of this spirit in truth podcast network.
And what that means is that we're connected with like-minded podcasts to help build a platform, to share the kingdom message, to learn more about spirit and truth. Check out their website, spirit and truth.life. Well guys, without any further ado, here's my conversation with major general retired John Graham.
Hey everybody. Welcome back to the podcast. I'm excited today to have author speaker and leadership guru, major general John GreenSky. Sir. Thank you so much for being on the podcast,
John: Tony. I really happy that you've invited me on and I'm looking forward to our conversation.
Tony: Well, full disclosure for all the listeners.
I, when I got out of the reserves, I was in and so I don't think I'm going to be able to make it through this conversation without calling you sir, the entire time. I hope that's okay with you. I'll do my best to try to work in and out of it, but it's just such a habit. You see those stars and you just got to carry on, you know, Yeah.
John: You know, Tony, I prefer John, but whatever, whatever you're comfortable with.
Tony: Well, one of the things I love about your ministry is that that you are really passionate, not just about leadership, but about people. And there's a quote on your website that I want to start with. And it says that it is the people, not things who nurture our souls.
I was wondering if you could just kind of. Help us understand how you came to that idea.
John: Yeah. I, I guess I came to that idea quite, quite naturally because, you know I don't think we should chase after material things. I think we should chase after relationships, building relationships with, with, with people.
And, you know, I, I came across something a few months ago that I thought was interesting. Somebody mentioned that the new currency of the era where it. Is not money, but it's relationships. And so, you know, I really think you know, doing everything that we could to develop long lasting relationships where we could help people become better versions of themselves.
And and also take the time to understand that we also need mentors in our lives. And, and people who, who we could use to help us along. And so, so that, that's what I really mean by, you know, it's people that nurture, nurture our souls rather than materials.
Tony: Well, you were in the military for a really long time and I was in as well.
And one of the things that we both know is that that the armed forces aren't really designed to help you build like great relationships. It's, it's a much, it's a much more difficult task than I think. Than what people imagine. And, and as you progress in leadership, it becomes even harder. And so I, I'm curious, John, what do you think is the key to building those kinds of relationships that feeds the soul, especially as we grow in leadership?
John: Yeah, I think character is the foundation of leadership. And when I talk about character, you know, I talk about understanding what your own personal core values are. And I, I think a lot of people perhaps don't spend enough time being introspective and really developing and putting down on paper after some serious thought, you know, their, their three to five personal core values.
I think that's so important because if we don't know what our own personal core values are, how are we going to align those values? With the values of organizations that we might work for. And, and then the other thing, but values which is important in one's life is when we make personal decisions to factor our values into our decision-making process.
I, you know, I'm not sure how many people take the time to factor their values in to, to the decisions that they make. And then, you know, we had to take this to a business perspective, right? Or really any organization and, and those, you know, chief executive officers of, of, of these businesses where they're making business decisions, it's important to factor those organizational values into the business decisions.
Right. And when we get, see failures of that, you know, Enron is a perfect example, right? And Ron had organizational values, but they certainly didn't factor them into the decisions they made. And then we look at companies you know, a company I like to use as a good example is, is Johnson and Johnson, you know, back in the early eighties, when they have the, the Tylenol crisis, you know, where somebody laced, bottles of Tylenol with cyanide in the Chicago area James Burke was the CEO of, of, of Tylenol at the time.
And you know, just, just a few years before, when he took over as the CEO, he brought his leadership team together and they took a look at the J and J credo and Burke said, Hey, we're going, we're going to do something here as a senior leadership team. We're going to look at this tree. And we're going to either decide to abide by the values in this creed out where we're going to get rid of it.
And they, they, they decided that they were going to abide by the values in that credo. And then a few years later Tylenol crisis and Burke and his leadership team made the decision to remove every bottle of Tylenol from all retail stores. And not only that, they allowed consumers to turn in bottles of Tylenol, even if they were already, it costs J and J well over 30 $30 million to do this, but they felt it was the right thing to do.
Cause they didn't know. What other bottles of Tylenol might've been laced with cyanide and seven people had already died in the Chicago area. So you know, there were analysts who thought that Tylenol brand was going to be dead because of what happened. But because of those actions, Burke and his leadership team took staying true to their organizational values within six months after the crisis, Tylenol regained almost 80% of its market share.
And of course the Tylenol brand is still. Alive and well. So I think that that's a great example. Leaders could look at, to say, you know, what, you know, being true to your values, factoring values into business decisions really is really is a good technique.
Tony: So can, can we drill down on the idea about the values a little bit more?
I would love to hear if you're willing to share and if not, that's okay too. I would love to hear your values and kind of maybe more importantly, how you came here.
John: Yeah. You know, when I was in my late twenties, I was at a dinner and the gay guest speaker at the dinner you know, H have had a speech where she talked about her personal core values and how they led to the successful career she had.
And as I was driving home from the dinner, I was thinking, wow, that was an inspiring talk. And then I thought to myself, if anybody asked me. What my core values were. Would I be able to answer that question? I thought to myself, no, I wouldn't. You know, I never really thought enough about it. And of course I had values, but I never really thought about what are the most important core values to me.
So I went on this introspective journey. It took me about six months. Of really thinking long and hard about what was important to me and, and the values I came up with were service, persistence, integrity, commitment, and positive energy. And I felt as I was going to live my life and lead people. I need to, I needed to exhibit these five personal core values and, and I've tried to, to live, live my life that way, especially with, with service, integrity and, and positive energy, because I think those three things are, are, are so important when we're leading other people.
Tony: So I imagine there's somebody who's listening right now. And he, or she's got a family and they're trying to, you know, they're, they're probably in their mid thirties, late or early forties, somewhere around. Yeah. And they're trying to figure out their values. They're thinking about their life. They're thinking about their work.
They're thinking about their faith. How would you tell someone to start on this journey of figuring out man? What is it? That's important.
John: Yeah. You know, I read this book a number of years ago, the name of the book is courage. The backbone of leadership. It's by Gus Lee just, just a leader who, who I admire and I consider a mentor.
And, and in this book he talked about values in a way. I never thought about values before he said not all values are high value. Yeah. He said there's, there's a low values, medium values. And then just a couple of high values. And he said, you know low values, for example, would be racism, cronyism. You know, when we look at somebody like Adolf Hitler, you know, the values, he had very low values.
And then he said, there's medium values and medium values could be things such as. Loyalty and duty because we could be loyal to a despicable person. You know, there were many people who were loyal day at all, Fiddler again, use him as an example. And then he said, there's only a couple of high values. And the two high values he talked about were integrity and personal courage.
Wow. And he defined integrity for acting for what is right. Regardless of risk. And then he defined personal courage is correcting wrongs regardless of danger. And I think, you know, I know a lot of people who listen to your program are Christians. And I think if we think of the way Jesus lived his life, and as we tried to emulate his way of living it's really all about integrity.
And, and, and it's about courage. And then the other thing I think that separates Christianity from all other religions is really the, the whole concept of, of forgiveness. You know, there's, there's not a lot of other religions. Talk about forgiveness as Christianity does. And you know, when Jesus was on the cross, he, he forgave those who, who crucified them.
So you know, I think you know, as we, so you asked me, you know, how does one go, go through this journey of, of deciding what their values are? I, I, I think too, To read things like, like Gus Lee's book to read, to read the Bible, to, to think about you know, just, just what is important in your life. And everybody's going to have, you know, that their values are going to be perhaps a little bit different.
But, but really it's about what is important to you, to you to you and your life. And. And then make that decision. Even in tough times, you've got to adhere to those values because it's easy at adhere to your values when things are going well, but it's when things are going tough. That's when you, when you've also got to adhere to your core values.
Tony: Do you have a process in place when you've got to make like this big decision, like a life changing decision, do you have a kind of process where you throw the values in, or is it so baked into your personality now?
Or how do we live in that tension?
John: Yeah, you know after spending 40 years in the army, you know, I was trained on the military decision-making process, which is really, you know, doing an analysis of, of, of the mission. And, and then at that point in time, I like to factor values in. Mm. And then coming up with various courses of action, you know, what are, what are the options you have in terms of making this decision?
And usually there's two or three viable options that that one has. And then you compare options, you know, understanding what the risk of each option is, and then ultimately making a decision. But again, making a decision with, with those core values as the foundation of. A choice you make in terms of options and then, and then moving forward and then being prepared to pivot a bit, if you need to, you know, as, as, as perhaps more information is gained you know, that you didn't have before, when you initially made the decision you know, be prepared to pivot a bit.
There's one thing about decision-making is we are never going to have perfect information to make decisions we're always going to have to be able to, we're always going to have to make decisions with less than perfect information. And when I do my leadership training and executive coaching, you know, I talk, I talk to a fellow leaders about having the courage.
To make decisions with less than perfect information. And Colin Powell talks about this, you know, he said, he said, you should have between 40 to 70% of the information you need before making a decision. And he said, if you, if you make decisions with less than 40% of the information available, then you're probably just shooting from the hip.
And if you wait until you have more than 70% of the information, you're probably going to miss an opportunity. So it's like that between 40 to 70%. Is is, is the sweet spot in, in making a decision, but you have to have the courage to do that because it does take courage to make decisions.
Tony: I, I really appreciate that.
And it's never felt more applicable than maybe in the last two years with COVID and the pandemic and seeing leaders have to make these decisions, not knowing what it was going to look like. I mean, when we shut down the church for the first time it was, we thought it'd be for like three weeks, six months later, we're still not meeting.
So I I'd be remiss if I didn't ask, you know, in all your work with leaders around the world and the work that you've done in the military and all the, the high end leadership that you've done. What has been the impact that you've seen so far on leadership because of the pandemic? I'm curious.
John: Yeah. I, I think You know, it's about resiliency.
And resiliency is not only about overcoming adversity. It's also becoming the best person you could be. And resiliency doesn't happen by itself. People have to train to become more resilient. And, and when I talk about resiliency, I talk about. Fitness and, and yes, I think physical fitness is important to being a resilient person, but I also think there's other elements of fitness.
There's emotional fitness, there's mental fitness, and then there's spiritual fitness. And so you've got to work at these things. And I think the leaders who came out of the pandemic the best were leaders who had worked at. Becoming resilient people before the pandemic even started. And so there's other elements to this.
It's it's about moving out of your comfort zone. You know you know, making yourself uncomfortable, even if you don't have to be uncomfortable in order to harden yourself a bit, you know, it's like going to the gym and, you know, lifting weights that are a little bit harder for you to lift, you know, just using that as an example, or going out for a run and maybe running a distance, that's usually a little bit harder for you to, to attain in order to.
In order to stretch and in order to, to grow in order to make yourself uncomfortable, moving out of your comfort zone. So, you know, those type of things people have to strive to do. So when tough times do occur they're, they're more able to, to make it through those tough times. In steady state operations, they're able to be the best person they could be or lead their organization to be the best organization.
It could be like yourself, you know, you want to lead your church to be the best church. It could be. You know, when people are expecting that from you as the leader of the church. So you know it's, it's all about doing those things to steal yourself for when hard times come, you're able to make it through.
Tony: Yeah, it sounds a lot like I was in the room when Donald Rumsfeld and oh, 4 0 5. I think it was probably oh four. When he said you, you go to war with the army, you have not the army you wish you had. Right. And it feels like what you're talking about is that same idea. Right? You you go into pandemics with the resiliency.
You have not the one that you wish you have for the pandemic. So it starts today, right? That's.
John: Th th that's exactly right. And, and you know, if you want to be able to make it through those tough times and also achieve everything you could achieve, you've got to work at that. It's not going to happen.
Tony: So one of the things we say around here a lot is that if you're not dedicated to your disciplines, you'll be destroyed by your distractions. And so in 40 years in the military and leading at an elite level, and now what you're doing with your consulting and this new resource out iron sharpened leadership what are some of your daily disciplines?
Because, I mean, you're putting out blogs, you're on podcasts all the time. You're putting out a lot of content right now. How do you keep yourself?
John: Yeah, no, that, that's a great question. You know, some, some basic things, you know, I, I do like to get up about five 30 every morning and, and in order to get up at five 30, I've got to go to bed at a reasonable time, you know, and not, you know, stay up late.
Mindless television or something. And and I, and I also am disciplined about reading. You know, I, I read a lot every day, you know, in the morning I do a reading from the Bible with you know, with my wife and, and and then, you know, I, I, I'm always reading something and lately I've been reading a number of books about Abraham Lincoln who I considered to be.
Just just a remarkable leader. And I think we could all do well to try to emulate some of his, his leadership traits that, that he had. So, and then I'm also disciplined about, about fitness, you know, I'm 65 years old now. But I could still hold my own with people much younger than I am. And so I work at that and then You know, so, so, you know, think about things to spiritual fitness, you know you know getting into the Bible as I do the, the mental fitness, you know, the reading that I do, the emotional fitness part is I'm a proponent of emotional intelligence and understanding that one has to work on self-awareness and self-control before they could begin to be empathetic to other people and then develop.
Productive relationships with, with other people. So I, I work on, on, on those things and then the physical elements. So really, I try to work on those, those elements of fitness that I, that I've talked about and that's, and you have to be disciplined to do that, you know, cause it's easy to get into a route or get away from it.
So you just have to have, and I think spending 40 years in the army has helped me develop that discipline. You don't need to have served in the military to, to be a disciplined person. It's all about working at it. And, you know you asked me a great question now. How, how, how could people work at it that perhaps aren't so disciplined?
I think the way to work at that is by starting small, you know, doing, doing small things in a disciplined manner, forming those habits and, and you've got to be consistent as you develop habits and then, and then work on, on, on some bigger things. So if you could, if you could just get in the habit of, you know, Set yourself a time when you want to wake up in the morning and then be disciplined about waking up in the morning and then once you achieve that, then move on to something else.
So I think it's starting small and working toward bigger things.
Tony: So after waking up so early for so many years, are you no longer need an alarm clock kind of guy?
John: Exactly. The only time, the only time I set an alarm clock is when. W I, I know I have to get up specifically for something and I just don't want to blow it.
But generally around 5, 5 30 every morning.
Tony: I find that like now sleeping in is like six 15, and I'm like, Ooh, maybe it's to six 15. Let's go. I love what you had to say about emotional intelligence. And one of the things is, is you you kind of. In, in your, in your book, you do a really great job of being very practical about lots of different leadership traits.
And there are so many different chapters or 39 different chapters of things to choose from. But one of the things I wanted to ask about was the empathetic leader because there's not a lot of books out there that highlight that. Why do you think that skill set is so important for leaders?
John: Yeah, it builds trust.
I mean, trust is, is the oil that allows an organization to to operate smoothly. And, and by having the ability to understand what other people are feeling is, is, is extremely important and that's not being sympathetic, you know, it's being empathetic and, and, and alluded to you know, self-awareness is, is the first element of emotional intelligence.
And once you understand how you're feeling and then control those emotions, it's only then that you could start to understand how other people feel. So I think it's impossible to understand how other people are feeling. If you haven't taken the time. To develop the skill, to understand how you're feeling.
You have to understand your own feelings first, and then once you demonstrate right, that empathy to other people you know, they, they, you, you, you develop that sense of, of, of loyalty within the organization. That sense of, of trust within the organization where people don't have to feel. Like they have to watch their own back.
They could then concentrate on doing things that are going to be good for the organization. If you've got an organization where people where there's a lack of trust, everybody is expending energy on watching their own back rather than working productively. And of course, organizations like that do not flourish.
Tony: So for someone who may not identify as an empathetic leader, do you think that it's something that we can work on and how do we develop that as a, as a muscle?
John: Yeah, no, that's a great question on that. I think the first thing again is, is, is getting in touch with your own feelings and your own emotions.
And, and then just developing what ways to put yourself in the shoes of other people and also work on not, you know, when, when, when a person makes a mistake, you know, whether it's coming to work late or whether it's a mistake they made at work or whatever the case. Don't, don't automatically go into the mindset of, you know, they did this on purpose, you know, I understand like, you know, somebody, you know, a great example, you know, I was talking to a police chief out in the Midwest and he told the story of how, when he was a young officer, he got in a fender bender with his police car and, and the first thing.
The first thing when he called his his supervisor about the fact that God, in a fender bender with his police car, the first thing has his corporal said to him, as he started chewing them out, you know, you know, well, well, what did he do wrong? You know, weren't you paying attention? You know, all these things, when this police chief told me, you know, it would have been much better if the first words out of his mouth was, Hey, are you okay?
You know, and then you get hurt that other person, the other car get hurt. You know, like, again, that, that's how you, that that's an example of how you become an empathetic person. Not, not just assuming the worst in people, but assume that people might've made an honest mistake and perhaps somebody is a little bit banged up or heard and ask, ask how they're doing and those types of things, and then lead into, you know, then at some point in time you could lead into, Hey, what caused the accident?
And how could we learn from it? But, but just don't assume the worst in people.
Tony: Yeah. I love that idea of the benefit of the doubt. I think it's a, it's probably a skill that most of us, well, I mean, emotion charged emotion, right? Like it tends to prevent us from being rational in those moments, right?
John: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And just one other thing I do want to mention here is you know, I I'm, I'm not at all saying that. You shouldn't hold people to standards. You know, I think it's important, you know, you set standards and then you have to hold people accountable. Accountability is important, important.
So I'm not, I'm not saying don't hold people accountable or don't hold people to standards, but. You know, do it in a dignified and respectful manner. You know, a lot of times you know, we hear the term toxic leadership, you know, a leadership who is as toxic, who is caustic, you know, and, and I think if a leader treats the people they lead with dignity and respect, it's impossible to be labeled as a toxic leader.
However, You could reprimand somebody in a dignified and respectful way. You could even fire somebody in a dignified and respectful way. And sometimes it's better for the person and the better, better for the organization of, Hey, it's just not the right fit. You know, you thought they were a right fit when you hired them.
But then after retraining and counseling and coaching, They're still not getting it. Sometimes it's, it's, it's not only good for the organization, but it's good for the person to say, you know what? This, this may not be the right fit for you here. You know, you might want to move into another organization or another line of work where you're going to have a better fit.
And you're only doing that person a, a service, but you could do it in a dignified and respectful manner.
Tony: Yeah. In, in your career. I would imagine that you experienced all of this. Levels of leadership. I, you know, I'm curious from a military standpoint, where in your career do you think you've learned the most about leadership?
What, what level you were at? What job did you have? What made it so informal?
John: Yeah, I think really to answer cause I'm still learning, you know, I haven't mastered it yet. As a matter of fact, if anybody reads my book, iron sharpened leadership, they'll see that it's, it's filled with mistakes that I have made.
And I, and I like to say I've always learned more from mistakes I've made. Then from the times I've done something right by accident, you know, and, and but, but really as, as a platoon leader, you know, leading 40 soldiers and then a company commander leading 145 soldiers and right on up, you know, at every level between that and the division that I eventually led of, of 15,000 soldiers I, I learned lessons along the way.
One thing kind of sticks with me though, based on your question. I remember reading something early in my career that an organization takes on the personality of a leader. And, and I, I read that before I commanded this company of 140 soldiers. And then when I took command of, of this you know, 140 soldier unit, I was thinking to myself, You know, how, how could it, how could the organization take on the leader's personality?
How could these 140 soldiers take on my personality? How could that happen? You know, I kind of doubted it and then I found it that's exactly the truth. So if, you know, if you could, you could put a, a sloppy leader in charge of a very highly functioning squared away. Organization and that organization after a while is going to turn out to be sloppy, where you put, you could put a very effective leader in charge of a sloppy organization.
And over a period of time, that organization is going to turn out to be an effective. You know, well-functioning organization. So you know, if you're a detail oriented person, the organization is going to be detailed oriented. If you're, if you're a leader who believes in customer service, the employees that worked for you are going to embrace the sense of, of, of customer service.
So it really is true. I found over 40 years of leading that organizations do take on the personality of their leader.
Tony: So, sir, I, I got to get in your Kool-Aid just a little bit what, what personality trait did you see in your unit when you realize that it was true? What was the one thing that stood out like, oh, that's me, that's me.
I see it.
John: Those troops. Yeah. You know, I, I was always big into, into fitness, you know, and when I took over the unit, they weren't necessarily the most fit unit. And I saw that starting to turn, I was always into tough. Cause I knew how hard that was or how important that was going to be for, for soldiers to, to, to you know, train hard.
So when they were put into a real world situation, they were going to be able to have that, that muscle memory that was going to help them to, to win and then also increase the probability of them coming home alive. So it was those things where I saw it. Changing in, in, in those ways that I thought, wow, you know, this really does work.
Tony: In my head I was thinking like all of a sudden, they're all going to become fans of whatever your favorite sports team is.
John: Now that I grew up in Pennsylvania and I was a green bay packer fan. So, you know, w would Philadelphia and Pittsburgh. Both having teams in, you know, in Pennsylvania that probably wasn't going to work.
Tony: You know, I think one of the things that I'm seeing a lot, and I would imagine you are too, is you know, what some people call the burden of leadership.
And, and as I heard you talk about the number of troops and just pure volume, right. At the division level, especially, but you know, every life being so important and every life comes with a story. As, as a leader yourself, and I'm sure that there are a lot of people listening who are leading in some way, shape or form.
How do we handle the burden of, of leading other humans who are on a journey and, and all the stories that come with it? How do we handle the burden of leadership?
John: Yeah. I guess for me, I have a propensity towards. Serving other people, God, God has given me that propensity, which I am very, very thankful for.
And, and I really never looked at it as, as a, as a burden. I always looked at it as the opportunity to serve more people. And so as I, as I would go up and, you know, 140 at the company, 850 at the. Battalion 5,000 at the brigade, 15,000 at the division. I really looked at it as opportunities to, to serve more, more people.
I think it's like, you know, when your church is your congregation grows, I don't think you see that as a burden. I think you see that as an opportunity to get your message out to more people into, to more people. Rather, I doubt that you see that as a burden. So, so I never saw it as a, as, as a burden, but I always believed this and, and I, and I do yeah.
Put this out in messages that, that, you know, if anybody thinks, you know, if anybody is looking at climbing the corporate ladder and thinking, Hey, when I, when I get to a certain position I've arrived and I, and I'm going to have people. Serving me, you know, because now I'm a, I'm a senior, your VP, or I am the CEO or whatever the case might be.
That is completely the wrong answer. You have to look at it as an opportunity for you to serve others, rather than an opportunity for people to serve you as you, as you go up through, through an organization. And I think, I think those leaders. That are thinking life is going to get easier or they're going to have more people serving them are the ones who eventually hit a ceiling and ended up failing.
Tony: Yeah, no, I ha how do you communicate to your new team that you're there to serve them as you enter? I mean, cause all those things, what I hear is like transition one transition to you're transitioning at every level. How do you come in and begin to set that culture of servant leadership? Right?
John: Yeah. It's by a couple of different ways.
It's by being authentic and upfront about what you believe and then demonstrating through action. What you have said. One example, when I took command of the 28th infantry division. I was a big believer in initiative because I saw, you know, when I commanded a brigade and in Ramadi, Iraq in 2005 and 2006 was such a large area that we had to operate in.
And it was so chaotic and violent there that it was imperative to. Allow junior leaders to demonstrate initiative, to get, to get the job done. So I, I saw in combat how important initiative was, and, and I was a believer that if, if you don't set conditions in your unit, in a steady state environment where people feel comfortable demonstrating initiative, when you get into a combat situation, people will not be comfortable demonstrating initiative.
Either because they didn't have that muscle memory. And so I was a big believer that it was important for our leaders to demonstrate initiative. So I put out that demonstrating initiative is so important that it's worth the risk of people making honest mistakes. So you know, my Sergeant major who was the, you know, the.
The the top enlisted soldier in, in the division. He was my right, my right hand, man. You know, he said to me, you know, you know he said people are going to be watching that when somebody does demonstrate initiative and they do make an honest mistake, people are going to be watching to how you react.
And I said, you know, you're right. And so then know, there were several areas where, you know, people did demonstrate initiative and, and because they were stretching and growing and moving out of their comfort zone, they made a mistake. And, and I would always, you know as long as I knew, it was an honest mistake and it was based on initiative, they were trying to display would just, you know, take them aside and say, okay, No, this was a mistake, you know, you've got, be up front with that, but, but now how could we learn from this?
And it's okay that you made that mistake because you were trying to do the right thing, but let's learn from it. Let's not make that mistake a second time. So again, you know what you put out as a leader people are going to be watching to see, Hey, do your actions follow those words?
Tony: I love that. I love that.
And, and I think that you've kind of lived that well. And as I look at your scope of work and the military, and then I, I was wondering, could you kind of tell everybody a little bit about you know, leader Grove and some of the things you're doing, of course, iron sharpened leaders leadership has an incredible resource that I strongly encourage people to pick up, but, but also some of the work that you're doing is, is very relational.
I was wondering if you might share a bit about the vision that you have with growing leaders.
John: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, my, my leadership philosophy is based on character competence and resilience and, and, you know, I, I have, I've been doing a lot of speaking to a large corporate organizations and, and you know, those are the things I talk about.
I'm happy to say I'm now doing some leadership training for some law enforcement agencies. Which I'm thrilled about doing? Cause I do think law enforcement agencies needs to have that leadership training and collocated into their organizations rather than, you know, promoting somebody from a deputy to a corporal and from a corporal to a Sergeant Sergeant to Lieutenant without getting the requisite leadership training that should go with those levels I think is detrimental to him.
Organization, especially a law enforcement organization. So and, and then I'm doing executive coaching, you know, I've done executive coaching. Folks over at NATO, for example and, and doing some executive coaching, you know, for, for people, you know, in, in, in our country at various businesses and corporations.
So I, you know, I find that very rewarding. I I'm actually also still working with the United States army as a senior mentor for some of the exercises that our army does. So again, it's, it's just an opportunity. For me to you know, give back a little bit, you know, the lessons I've learned over the last 40 years of, of not only leading military units, but since a lot of my time was also spending the national guard.
I had a full-time civilian career as a, as a, as a management consultant and work with many fortune 500 companies. In that vein. So just an opportunity for me to reflect on the lessons I've learned over a 40 year career of leading in some very, very trying circumstances and, and, and, and help people learn from, from the lessons that I've learned.
Tony: And you've been kind of processing these kinds of lessons for a long time. your first book? I'd be remiss if I didn't bring it up. Cause it's such an interesting idea, right? That the, the ride of our lives, I think it was published in 83 perhaps. Or is that that's when you that's, when you actually did the ride, I'm sorry.
That's when you did the ride was 83 and then and. Can you kind of give everybody a synopsis of that, because if I'm, I imagine a lot of my listeners are, are meeting you for the first time, but this is, this was kind of a big deal in your life.
John: Yeah, it was a big deal in my life. And actually you know, the, the name of the book is the ride of our lives.
And the subtitle is lessons on life leadership and love. And it's about a bicycle trip. I took across the country from the west coast to the east coast in 1983. With my wife and our 15 month old baby. That's the part to me.
Tony: That is wild. It's the baby that's wild and all of that.
John: Yeah. Yeah. And it was a self-contained bicycle trip, you know, not motorcycles, but pedal bicycles, 1983, you know, and analog time, you know, no, no cell phone, no GPS.
No, no Google search before we started the trip. And, and you know, we had a two man backpacking tent, two sleeping bags so we didn't have a van following us or anything. And we made this over 4,000 mile journey from Washington state to Pennsylvania. And the book is, is just about the three months we spent on this cross-country journey as a family, a young family learning about each other.
Learning about our strengths and our weaknesses and, and just learning lessons about life leadership and love just as a subtitle says,
Tony: What's your favorite story from that book? If you don't mind sharing it? If I ask if I had to make you pick one.
John: Yeah, I think my, and this is a story about the grace of God, or really, I think probably more More about the mercy of God.
We're we're In Oregon. And we're biking up through this, this mountain range and it was raining. So we had on these red rain coats and, you know, people say, what are you doing when it rains? You know, when you're out on the spike trip, well, you keep on biking, you know? And so we had our red rain jackets and we're biking and I'm pulling, you know, Steven was riding in a trailer that I was pulling.
We get up to the top of the mountain range. We hit a little bit of snow up there, and then we start down the mountain. And as we're going down the mountain, you know, the rain is starting to subside and we finally get down into this valley. You know, we just get down to the bottom of this mountain into a valley and the sun is starting to break through to clouds and their steam coming up off the road and barely, and I stopped for a moment just to kind of take a drink of water from our water bottles, have a little bit of a snack.
And this is where as we're just on this road, we haven't seen a car. Probably for about the last 30 minutes or so, but as we were about, you know, just coming down that mountain, there's a truck coming in a pickup truck coming in the opposite direction and the guy is yelling at him. Hey, Hey you know, stop, stop.
And so I keep on going with my, with my bike because, you know, I had a trailer behind it, but my wife barely stops. And then she comes down alongside of me. I said, what did the guy say? And she said, he's, he told me to be careful, there's a puddle in the middle of the road. I said a puddle like, okay. And so we're, we're stopped, they're eating our snack and we're looking down the road through the steam coming off the road.
And we see this image coming towards. And we're looking and looking, trying to make out what is this image? And then we both realized it's a bowl, a, B U L L bull. Oh, it must've got out of a farmer's field. And again, we hadn't seen a car, you know, except for that pickup truck. And we're thinking, what the heck are we going to do?
You know, when we have these red rain jackets on and, and, and then I saw him. And he starts pulling at the road and steams coming out of his nose. Oh no. I thought that only happened in cartoon. So anyway, we're thinking, you know, maybe we should start trying to bike back up this mountain, but you know, I don't know how effective that's going to be.
And then I don't know where this car comes down the road and a big old car and the car stops and the guy rolls down his window. He seemed like he was dressed in coveralls, a flannel shirt. And he said, looks like you guys got yourself in a pinch here. We said, yeah, we do. And he goes, this is what we're going to do.
He goes, yeah. Yeah, I'm going to keep your bikes to the left of my car. I'm going to ride interference for you. I'm going to try to keep the bull to the, my ride in my car. And he goes, we're going to go down this road. He goes, don't stop peddling until we get about another quarter mile, half mile down the road.
So he, he started his car moving about 10 miles an hour. We're biking to his left. He keeps the bolt to the right and we'd get past that bull. And we'd go down about another half mile before we stop. And I wanted to drag it. That man out of the car and give him a big hug, but I don't think he wanted me to do that.
Cause we were pretty sweaty and I really think it was God's mercy. That's this former to us to protect us at that very time. Cause like I said, very few cars on the road. And for him to come at that exact moment had, had to be, you know, God's shining his grace and mercy on us to get us out of that fixed.
And that was, that was probably the closest call we had on the entire trip. But I, I hate to think what would have happened if that bull caught up with us.
Tony: Well, and, and to have enough wisdom to figure out how to navigate that. I don't know that I would have come up with that solution. You know, and I'm more, I tend to be more aggressive in those kinds of moments.
Like I would have just tried to take my car and maybe run the ball off the road or something. And it probably wouldn't have been as helpful as, Hey, I'm just going to ride you ride next to me. And that just seems like, oh, that makes perfect sense. That's the right way to handle it. But praise God that it's somebody who was driving along knew exactly what to do.
John: Honestly, honestly.
So I think about that a lot. Yeah. That's awesome.
Tony: Yeah. I know my listeners are going to want to connect with you and what you're doing with all the leadership stuff. Where is the best place to find you and all the work you're doing on the internet?
John: Yeah. I'd say go to my website. It's a very simple website.
My name is John J O H N. So my website is John John ground ski.com. So that's J O H N at. J O H N G R O N S K i.com. I have a e-commerce site there where people could purchase both books, the ride of our lives, and also iron sharpened leadership and I'll sign books and send them out to people. I do that all the time.
And and I, and again, my email address is, is is John John ground ski.com website. As I mentioned as John ground.com. So people could connect with me. Email, always happy. If anybody has a question, I'm always happy. Just, just to give an answer.
Tony: That's awesome. I love that. And really love your, your time and generosity.
Last question, we always love to ask people and it is an advice question, but it's, it's one particular piece of advice and, and I get to take you to a specific time in your life. And so so sir, I'm going to ask you to go back and talk to young platoon leader. First Lieutenant second Lieutenant you're, you're kind of your first platoon where you're in command.
If you could go back and talk to that young man and give him one piece of advice, what would it be.
John: That, you know, that is an easy one for me, because I do talk to a lot of cadets, you know, three cadets and, and, and, and that sort of thing. And, and, and I tell them the most important thing. And, and I know I mentioned this at the beginning.
I don't want to sound like a broken record, but it really to be true to your values, really understand what your values are and then be true to those cause. Cause I really think character is the foundation of leadership. So to be true, your values to, to have that integrity is really key to being a leader.
And if you don't do anything else, if you could adhere to that rule of understanding how important values are and adhering to those values. I think that's, I think that's essential for any, any leader at any age to understand.
Tony: Praise God. I love it. I love it, John, thank you so much for your time and generosity today for what you're doing for leaders all over the world and for your service to our country.
We're so thankful.
John: Yeah. Hey, I appreciate your ministry. Thanks for what you're doing. Leading your church. Get this podcast out there and help helping other people become better versions of themselves. It's phenomenal. So thank you.
Tony: Love that conversation with John. I especially appreciated the talk about the values, right?
The high value. A medium value is the low volume, right. And how we can train resilience. So many good nuggets in there. Do me a favor, follow John up on the socials. Let them know that you heard them on the reclamation podcast. Also don't forget that. Subscribe button, leave a rating and review on iTunes and share this episode with a friend.
I'm so thankful for the opportunity to continue to do what I love and to share this with you every single week. Next week, we've got brand new episode coming out with Rob Almer. We talk about transition. We talk about scripture it's that life-giving spirit filled conversation. So thank you guys so much.
And remember, if you want to follow Jesus, you must be willing to move.
