#117: Rob Ulmer: Transition, Scripture, and Hearing from God
The Holy Spirit told me to have Rob on the podcast, I loved this conversation and I think you will too!
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EP. 117 Rob Ulmer
Tony: Hey everybody welcome back to the Reclamation Podcast, where our goal is to help you reclaim good practices for faith and. Today is episode one 17 of the podcast. And I get to sit down with a friend of mine, pastor speaker leader, Rob Omer. Now this is an interesting, the conversation cause actually Rob didn't really want to come on the podcast, but the holy spirit led me to ask him and he graciously said, yes, he's in the midst of some transition.
We talk about his favorite book of the Bible and I bet you won't guess what. And just some incredible dialogue around Rob's story and what God has been revealing to him. I'll tell you guys that we're in the middle of this conversation. And as he started talking about scripture, the holy spirit fell in the room in such a way.
It was palpable. It was so good. I think you're gonna love this dialogue. You're going to love Rob's heart for Jesus. Yes. And the way he is super practically helps us connect with. If you do love the conversation, do me a favor, hit that subscribe button, wherever you listen to podcasts that way you don't miss any future episodes and be sure to leave a rating or review on iTunes.
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And. I'm incredibly thankful for that. Hey, I don't know if you guys know this or not, but we're a part of, what's called the spirit entry podcast network and it's like-minded individuals doing kingdom work together. And so for more information on spirit and truth, do me a favor, check out their website, spirit and truth.life.
They're doing some incredible things for the kingdom. Now without any further ado. Here's my dear friend, Rob Elmer. Hey everybody. Welcome back to the podcast. I'm excited to be here today with one of my dear friends, pastor leader speaker, Rob Omer, Rob, welcome to the podcast, man.
Rob: Thank you for having me.
This is awesome.
Tony: I it's not very often that I will reach out to someone and ask them to be on the podcast just based off of a nudge from the holy spirit.
And and your response was pretty classic because I, I felt like you weren't really sure what we were going to talk about.
Rob: Yeah, no, I w I went home after you're like, Hey, we should get you on the podcast. And I was like, great. And I went home and I was like, man, Why Meg is my wife, not just some random person.
I was like, why do you think Tony wanted me on his podcast? And she said, I don't know.
And so that's that tells you about nothing, nothing like a little vote of confidence for the message.
Tony: But the truth is, is that you've been going through a lot recently, right? You were in the midst of transition and and I'm curious, man, what have you learned about God in this season of transition?
And maybe if you could paint a picture a little bit about what transitions look like in your life recently transition.
Rob: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So I'm a pastor and Methodist church. I am an elder in the United Methodist church, which means means, I don't know. No, I know what it means. I'm ordained in the United church, but I love the title.
Elder. I try to get my kids to call me that like you call me elder, whatever dad. But Yeah. And I've taken a season of voluntary leave for different reasons that I won't get into right now, but it was really hard praying about it, thinking about it. Some things came up and I'm not bad, but just things came up and talking with my wife about it and stepping away from the, from the ministry, I was doing it in a church that just beautiful people, and that was hard and sad, but.
We just felt like this was the right thing to do for the season. So that's the first thing that transitioned, right? Like it's hard if that means like the beginning of it, it was hard. I feel like something I've been learning about the Lord about just transition as I get a little bit older. When I was younger change was something I wanted, you know, like I was bored.
I was like, I want change once, you know? And as I've gotten older, Change has really brought with it. Just the sense of sadness and. Anticipation at the same time. Right? So the sadness of the thing you're leaving and wondering if that's gonna be it forever. Wow. Because your time is getting less.
Right. And at the same time anticipation of like, but God has God, he's always doing something. So I wonder what he's going to do now. And also it just takes a toll more. It takes a toll on my body, more on like my, you know, I don't, there's not sleep in transition. And also I don't know, it's it all kind of stress, all of it.
Right. So we, we bought a house for the first time we've lived in parsonages. You know what your house is provided to pastors by church, by the church and which are always a blessing, always better than anything we could afford. Right. Typically. And I mean, th the buying the house is a whole, there's still God's story.
I mean, God laid out things just is amazing what he did. In this market right now, I cannot believe we found that home, but we did. And the Lord has provided and, and it's not a perfect home, but it's beautiful and it's ours and it's old and rickety and you know frightening and but also it creaks all the time.
Like right now one of the rooms worked on. And so my wife and I were sleeping in the dining room, which means that, you know, first thing in the morning, the dogs and the kids are right there in the middle of our bedroom. And when I sleep at night, I can hear every noise in the house. I did not sleep for the first few nights at all, because every noise I was like, someone's trying to get into our house or whatever, you know, it's like all of my, my spikes or dad's sense and whatever was going crazy.
So that, so transition new space, right? Yeah. But really one of the big things I've found was I prayer environment. So I pray every morning. And in my last home I had a space that was my prayer space. I was used to praying in that space, you know finding a new space in our new home. Was hard at first I have this, I have this garage now that really, it was made in 1937.
So no car today can fit in it. So it's like, so it's cool. Cause it's like, perfect. My life is like, you can have it, you know? And I was like, great. So just a little story. I mean, after like three or four days, I'm okay. The guy at home now. And I'm kind of my wife and I have switched roles in a sense.
And. She's amazing, you know, and I'm kind of not knowing what to do. And, and I'm there after three days of being with my kids, 24 hours straight. And I love my kids, but man, they are going, that seems like a lot. I always knew my wife was awesome. But after these, after three days, I was like, I don't know how so they, it was like Lord of the flies, you know what I mean?
Like she came home, the kids are like warping on. So the third day, I'm literally sitting in a chair, the dogs are going crazy. The kids going crazy. And I get tears in my eyes because I'm like, Lord, I don't know how to do this. And I feel, I feel the Lord would be like go into the garage. And so I was like, okay.
It was like 90 degrees. I'm like a stuffy in there, but so I go in and. And I bring with me just this little icon that a friend of mine gave me. It's an icon of the good shepherd is Jesus with his sheep over his shoulders. And and I just walk, I just hanging on the wall and I sit. And I just weep.
I'm just, just like, I'm sad about the people I left. I'm sad about changing of roles and it's not sad. Like, oh, this is horrible. This is the end. But it's sad. Like, I don't know who I am. Right. It's like a lament.
Tony: Yeah. It's like a morning almost.
Rob: Yeah. So I'm there all this weeping and it's like, I feel the Lord tell me.
Invite me into this place that is unfinished. Don't wait to get everything together and then invite me, like, I don't come when things are finished. I come when they're unfinished, right. I come in to them and I finish them. Wow. I am the author and the Perfector right. I am the finisher. And it was an amazing moment.
It was like, the Lord was like, don't be afraid of being vulnerable. Let me in. To the transition too. Cause I had this feeling of, I've got to know everything. I've got to figure this out and I think it's amazing how many times I have to learn that lesson.
Tony: Well, it's interesting. One of the things that I hear is I hear you tell the story and I hear you talk about your relationship with God is this sense of familiarity, right?
And it's clear that you've been walking with the Lord for awhile. I imagine that there's someone listening right now, who is like, I pray every day and I never hear from God, or I read the Bible once a week and I never hear from God. Let me ask you this. There's somebody who's listening right now. Who's, who's unfinished in their internal life and internal relationship with God.
What, how do they get to familiar? How do they get to that place where they're like, oh, that's the Lord. That's not just the burrito I ate the other day. You know? Like how do you know, how do you get to familiar with Jesus?
Rob: Yes. Yes. So I don't have a, like a perfect, a hundred percent answer for that, but I can tell you just what I've learned.
Because as a pastor, I feel like you fumbled through this with people all the time. This is one of the big questions, right? I mean, it's a part of disciple-making. Yeah. So I think what I've been learning is over the years one it's. Guessing check and failure and mess up and learning what the voice is swinging.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So and it's not always, like, I I've heard all an audible voice once or twice and, and a few times, I'm not sure if it was the Lord, if I'm honest, you know, but I, I have had, and then there are moments where it's like, it's in your chest, kind of like, there's like a sense. And then there are moments where there's a great book.
Oh, shoot. What's the guy's name? It's called whisper. Oh, it's really good. Mark Batterson. And just, I thought it was really insightful. And he kind of covers the different ways that God talks, but the part of it is okay. You're in the word. You're reading scripts. You're learning from the spirit. As you read scripture, you expect the spirit to teach you as you read scripture, right?
The Bible is not good by itself by itself. It's just a book that people use as a weapon or whatever. It must be paired with the spirit, the spirit. The spirit. Cause, cause the Bible is not God. Right, right. God is alive. He is present. But he uses this word in your life. Yeah. And he uses it empowered by the spirit and you need the spirit.
Right. You need to be born again, born from above. If you're not, then you will try to use the word to your own ends. And so sit with that word. Let the holy spirit teach you kind of just learn his voice. I don't know any other way to say it. It's just like Tony. It's like. You know, it took me a little bit to realize when I pick up the phone that it's my wife on the other line, when we first started getting, you know, getting together.
Sure. You know what I mean? And she would call and she would do this thing and she'd be like, Hey. And I'd be like, Hey, no, no, I didn't want her to know that. I didn't know the story. Cause at this point, like the cell phones, didn't say people's names or whatever. I didn't have a cell phone were in the hall.
You were on the hallway phones. Yeah. So but eventually I got it. You know what I mean? Not just the timbre of her voice, but I got like the way she said hello. And I got also the expectations that were there as well, you know, which were great. And, and now of course I know her voice from a million miles away, but it's kind of like that in some ways that's a metaphor you can use, like you just learn over time and then and then you learn what God's God what God says.
So here's something that really blew my mind. Okay. And I forget the book, I read this in, but a couple things, first of all, God. Convict, but he will not condemn. Yeah. Right. So there's no more condemnation in Jesus Christ, Romans eight. Right. So but he will convict now. Here's, here's the other thing, if you feel guilty about something or if you feel bad or ashamed about something, here's what conviction is.
It is intentional and specific. Right. So you'll know exactly what it is. I, this happens to me all the time. I feel guilty or ashamed, but it's vague. Do you know what I mean? Sure. And it's like, oh, I just feel guilty. I don't know why. I just feel it. That's not from God because convinced. It's about growth toward him.
He wants you to grow. He wants you to be with him, right? He wants you bottom line, you know, so if he's going to convict you of something it's for discipline and why does he discipline people? Right. Hebrews tells us. He loves you. Right? Right. So, so he's going to convict you. It's going to be specific about it so that that can be worked on and fixed.
If it's vague and you're done, you're just walking around with a cloud of shame, a cloud of guilt. You have no reason why, but you're like, oh God must hate me. No, that's not God. So, so those are some very concrete things. I think also everything's going to lead to the Lord, everything. So the Lord is talking to you and he's like, you know what?
You're so great. You're so good. You know what you should do? You should do whatever you want. Do you know what I mean? You should, you should eat that Snickers bar. You should, you know what you should do? You should, you should engage that woman on Facebook. Cause what's the deal, you know, whatever it is, all these little, that's not the Lord.
And we always think it's going to be obvious don't we? Yeah, we always think I will know evil. It will be Hitler. Well, a lot of people didn't know Hitler was. Right, right, right away. A lot of people, I mean, so we have got to be just smarter and more on guard in some ways. So for instance, this thing I heard in the garage, I knew it was the Lord for, for different reasons, for a couple of different reasons.
One is what he was saying. He's basically saying you need me, me, Jesus, in the flesh, right? I'm the Lord of all creation. You need me. And he wasn't saying get it together so that I can come. He was saying, I love you right now. I'm coming right now. He was also, he also, wasn't saying I'm going to fix all this.
He was saying, I'm going to come be with you and you're going to be with me. Cause that's the main goal of all, all the Bible, right. Fellowship. Yeah. That's the bottom line. That's what salvation is. It's union, right with the Lord it's it's continual Sabbath. Yeah. So and there are many other reasons, I mean, another thing.
So if you, if you want to get to the sensory piece, the feeling piece you just learn that over time, you know? And I know there are people listening. Here's the thing I've also learned about God, I'm talking a lot, but you asked, so.
Tony: This is why you're the guests and I'm the host. I want you to talk.
Rob: And I'm a preacher that hasn't really had a pulpit for a while.
So here you go, man. This is good. Yeah. Well, good. I'm glad because, so the other. About this is that we always want to nail down concrete way. Yeah. Like a plus B equals C. Yeah. But it's a relationship and it's about growth. And so I promise you, as soon as you get a concrete thing here that you want to put across the entire relationship, it's going to shift.
I mean, Some of the things, like what I told you about the conviction and condemning that's concrete. That's, that's always going to be there I believe, but it's going to look like different things throughout your relationship. I don't know. You stay in the word, you stay in community, right? You're brothers and sisters.
So when I have little words like this I'll share it with my wife and she like, yeah, yeah, that's Jesus, you know, and you just know it's Jesus and I will add something else. You have peace. Hmm. That's over. And it's real peace. When when we were praying about this transition, you know, we prayed until we had, until we fell.
Okay. There's, there's a real peace about this. That's only God can give that. I think sometimes we're like, I don't know. I don't know. What do you think? What do you think, what you think and you got to ask, well, do you have any peace about this at all? And well, well, you know, no, and it's like, okay, well then maybe down the line, but if you don't have it right now, then you've got to ask why that is, you know, maybe it's because God is speaking to you.
But you don't want to hear what he has to say. I mean, I've been there a bunch of times. Yeah. So I mean, there's a lot more, I don't know if that helps. I hope.
Tony: Well, no, I think it's super helpful because I think a lot of us wanted to be very clear cut when it is God and what it isn't God. Yeah. And I think what, what I hear you saying is that relationships, and this has been my experience too, are never clear.
Cut. They're always messy and they especially have to be messy with. The God of all creation. Right. Because I, you know, I'm not going to understand his part of the relationship because I would never sacrifice the way. Yeah. I would never be. I would never love unconditional love. I mean, I'm working towards it.
Yeah. Ideally, right?
Rob: Yeah. Well, this is the, so this is it, right? Like I've, I've been in different situations where I used to think when I was a really young Christian, how could I know God's will and then one day. I come upon this passage because we kind of think like, no, I can never know God's will God's holy, I'm not amen.
That's the truth, right? Yeah. And then not come across Romans 12 one day and I'm reading it. I appealed to you, therefore brothers and sisters, by the mercies of God to present your bodies as a living sacrifice holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. And I'm thinking, wow, this passage is amazing.
He says, do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your minds so that you may discern what is the will of God.
I thought, wait, what Paul's expectation is that I will be able to discern God's will. Yeah, that's a real, that's a real thing. Like, okay, well, I've got to go back to the drawing board then, because. I just wanted to put it on cruise control and be like, well, I can never know God's will. And it really that's just me saying, God couldn't really ask anything of me, you know?
Tony: Yeah. God's holiness is not an excuse use for my sin. Yeah. Amen.
Rob: But you said that much better than me. Yes, that's right. Very astute. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A student. Is that the word? I don't know. But the, yeah, I mean, I'm reading. So I read over this passage a bunch. Because it reminds me that actually God expects us to discern his will not the same time.
Right. I have a fallen, will I have a fallen image like wisely says and, and so there's always going to be some. My knowledge, my understanding is always going to be slightly, like Paul says, it's going to be dim in a way, right. This is slightly darkened because I'm just human. So, but there will come a day where it's all perfectly complete, but I should, again, I shouldn't use that as an excuse to never think that God won't make things clear to me.
So I do it. I don't do it alone. I do it with brothers and sisters. I do it with the word and the spirit. Right. Yeah. Can I ask you some questions about the holy spirit? Yeah, please. So yeah, you can go ahead. I don't know if I can give you answer. That's fair.
Tony: Well, I have one of the things I heard you say is that you're, you're very intentional about your including of the holy spirit and the way that you.
You encounter scripture and your community. And just, and again, the familiarity you have with Jesus is modeled in the familiarity you have with the holy spirit. I think that there are a lot of us who, when they open up their Bibles or they flip open to their YouVersion Bible app or whatever they're using to engage scripture, they read it and they don't hear the holy spirit.
Right. What, what are your kind of. If you go in a season where you're not healing from hearing from the holy spirit, what are some of the things that you do to bust out of those dry ruts? You know, how do you re-engage the holy spirit or, or how, how should we be engaging the whole?
Rob: Yeah, so I deal with depression and I go through a lot of seasons where I I don't want to get out of bed, or I don't think that God loves me or thinks about me or I, you know Just very dark places.
And I've definitely been in seasons where where I didn't think I was hearing from God and there have been, and I've gone through seasons where I yell at God in, in, in sanctuaries of churches, I was pastoring in. I would stand up and preach the gospel and it was the Lord doing it because I literally had nothing.
And I think every pastor could say they've done that. And I think every Christian could say they've been in those situations. Right? Sure. So in those moments, what I do a couple of things, one is I go back to the word, always the word. So like I'll read Psalms out loud. I will read through them out loud.
I will, you know there was a season. I went through like six or seven months where I literally go into my office and I got this idea from a Brennan Manning book. And I would just set up a chair and I'd pour a cup of coffee and I'd sit there and the chair would be Jesus. And I would just cry, man.
I would just talk to Jesus. I would, I would say, I don't know what to do with my life. I don't feel, I don't know. And I just talked to him and You know, there comes a moment where you don't want to sit and complain all the time, but he, he will take it he's patient. But th having them, just having that chair just, I know he's there because he tells us he's there.
I'm imagining him in this chair. I'm just talking to him and, and I don't know. And then I just sit in silence and you deal with the silence.
You just keep looking back at the cross. I don't know any other way to say it. Cause the cause Jesus himself was there and didn't hear, you know, why have you forsaken me? Right. So one you're not you're in good company. Right? Like if the Lord himself had those moments and you're like, okay, it does not mean that I am forsaken.
Right. Jesus was forsaken so that I would not. And I don't know, you just,
You just need to keep telling yourself that keeps seeing it in the word and have other people tell you that too. And, and you got to tell other people, so one thing I learned, especially dealing with depression is one of the ways you really beat it is you love others and you pray for others.
Because so easily you go inward. But I was, I was sitting in my office. My last church and I'd been focusing on myself a lot and just, just feeling inability to do anything, you know? And, and I'm looking out the window and I just get this sense. Like, I should go pray with him, people I'm like I don't want to do that, you know?
And it's horrible to say, but yeah. I don't know, it's awkward.
Tony: It's, it's hard. I don't feel it's probably 10 other things that you felt like you probably needed to do that you weren't doing.
Rob: And I just had, I was like, I just want to sit in my cocoon and and it was like the Lord, I didn't hear your verbal words.
It's like the sense I had was like, look, Rob you. And I both know, this is not good for you buddy. Like, let's get you out. Like, and so, and so I just ha I forget, I saw it somewhere, but. And I just took a chair out in the corner of the church and just sat there and just put a sign up, said pray, or the church I was at.
They, they did prayer drive through it's amazing ministry. It was awesome. They started and I just kind of, but, so I just took the same idea and I just started doing it like once a week just me and, and people would stop by and I'd pray for them. And, and we talk, I just pray for them and it was amazing.
And then I was telling one of my maintenance guys about it. And I was like, we came with the state of the, make a bench, you know? And so what I do, so I put a bench out there to sit there and I don't know, it was like I started doing that. I started hearing more from the Lord and here, I think here's the thing.
Right? I think the answer is love. Like, I think the, the. If as you make yourself more open to love to loving others, you also make yourself more open to receiving love. Does that make sense? So like the, the image I've always loved about this is you can have a whole handful of seeds. That's great. But they are worthless unless you put them in the ground.
Yeah. Right. So if you put them in the ground, they grow. So I heard someone say, it's, it's the law of the gift. You think about it as the kingdom of God, it's always backwards. So the way love grows as you give it away. That's how it grows. Not because you hold onto it. Not because you sit in your office alone and you're like, well, this is how I protect myself.
No, the Lord says the way that love grows in you and the way you understand how to hear love better, or the way you understand how to receive love better and receive really the voice of the holy spirit better is you go out and you share what you have and the more you do it. The more, you are opening yourself to hearing, right.
And you can see it testified all throughout the Bible. I mean, it is that's, that's what happens, you know, w when the disciples were in or in acts, you know, God, Jesus told them, I want you to go out to the ends of the earth. They were not going right. There was persecution that came and it forced them out to go out into the world.
You know what I mean? And, and I'm not saying that God orchestrated that persecution, but God certainly used it to get them off their butts to go out there. I don't know.
Tony: No, that's awesome. I, I think what I appreciate about that is that it's it's. There seems to be this connection between love and obedience.
Yes. Yes. And and that really matches up like lately God has just really put on the, on my heart, like this term free me for joyful obese. Yeah, man. Yeah, man. It's freeing me from my own stuff. Yes, yes, yes. Right, right. And so I, you know, I find that to be a very interesting idea and yeah. The law of the gift and that, that all seems to just go really well together.
I think. So that, that makes a lot of sense. I, I guess the question is, is, and this might be a little specific, but what do you do when you feel like you don't have anything to give?
Rob: Yeah. Yeah, well, welcome to being a Christian.
Tony: It's always so uplifting.
Rob: I really think that that's, I mean, as I sit in my home with no longer a pulpit, no longer a ministry of sorts, man, I do have a ministry to my children.
I mean, that's what I'm learning. I am learning. I sit there. Only recently I'm sitting in my garage and I'm talking to Jesus and I'm saying, I don't know what to do. I, I got nowhere to put this stuff and the Lord is like, talk to your kids, you know, like, and I, I thought I was doing a good job of discipling them, but I was not.
I mean, I mean, if I'm honest, you know, it's like, I mean, I loved them and I told them about Jesus and I pray for them every night. We'd do the whole thing, but Now we sit down in the morning and we go through scripture together and we spend time talking about the Bible and it's not half an hour long, it's 10 minutes, you know, but it's more intentional.
And throughout the day, I make sure I bring up Jesus in some way, shape or form and link him into what we're doing actually. If I can plug your podcast on your, on your podcast, the Barnet interview you did, where he talked about that with his grandson. Yeah. That was huge for me hearing just about like, I mean, just engaging, engaging the kid, instead of saying you stay here, I'm going to do this thing.
And then the kids saying, what'd you do? Oh, nothing. Don't worry about it. Like bringing them into the life with you that I'm learning a lot. The Lord is teaching me a lot about that. And so I think. You've got to get to a place where, you know what, John five, John 15 says, without me, you can do nothing. Hmm.
So you're right. If I want to get really, I mean, I hate to say it, but you've got nothing to give. You know what I mean? Like I, and I know that sounds hard, but it's true. If it's the difference, what am I trying to say? I can give them the fruit of rock. Yeah, but the fruit of Robin's wax fruit, right.
It looks so good. You know what I mean? It takes good pictures, but you bite into it and it's disgusting, you know what I mean? And it rots, you know, but if I have Jesus and I'm attached to the vine then, then real fruit comes from that man real fruit and that fruit I can give away. And you know what, I don't have to produce.
Yeah, the spirit produces it in me and through me. And I don't care if it's a grape or a pumpkin, you know what I mean? The size of it, but it's fruit, nonetheless. And it's life-giving. And so the sooner I realized I'm weak, that's when he is strong. Yeah. You know what I mean? His grace is sufficient, so I just need to come to him each day and just say, I've got nothing.
And so you fill me up and here's what I've learned. The Lord loves me like Rob and Jesus are gonna create a kingdom fruit together. And Tony and Jesus are gonna create a kingdom fruit together as well. It's going to be a different fruit, but it's going to, and we're going to have two kingdom fruit and, and we get to have our name on that fruit.
Do you know what I mean? And I'm dead serious. We get to participate and Roman says, we get to be glorified with him. Now I'm a hundred percent clear. It's not that I'm looking for glory, but I get to share in his light. That's a gift, man. And I should not be ashamed of that. I should be like, thank you, Jesus.
Thank you. Like, I don't do this because I want that light, but I do it because I love him and he's changed my life. But then I, I get to see people change by the gospel shoot. I get to preach. I get to come on this podcast and talking about Jesus. The truth is why do you have any, like there's no, that's.
Tony: Yeah, we don't, we don't deserve it, but we certainly get it.
Rob: Yeah. We get the basket like, cause God doesn't compete. Yeah. God's like, I'm not another thing on the shelf I want to share. All I want to do is share and give away love so it can grow more love, you know?
Tony: I love that. And you know, one of the things that I hear in your, the way that you talk about your relationship with him, Because you're, you're constantly learning.
You're constantly learning. And one of the reasons that we're having this conversation is because you've been learning a little bit about some themes in scripture, and these feel like it's all kind of tied together and what God has really burdened you with in a good way. Right? Like he's, it's on your heart, all this.
Yeah. I was wondering if you could share a little bit about some of the themes that you've seen recently in scripture that God just won't let go of.
Rob: Yeah. Okay. Well, I'm not ashamed to admit it, but my, my, my favorite book in the Bible is Leviticus.
Just Jesse.
Tony: You know, every time I talk about the Bible reading in a year plan, I say, and you're just going to have to power through Leviticus. I hate that.
Rob: Yeah, I know, dude.
Tony: And if you've never read Leviticus, it's the book of it's the, well, how would you describe it's a book of law, right?
Rob: Th th th well, here's how I would describe it now, but, okay.
So when I first started reading the Bible, yeah, I did not, but I don't know what it was about this book over the years. I keep coming back to this book and only recently I feel like the Lord has said, I really want you to dig into this book. So to just tell you how nerdy I've been this morning in prayer for about an hour.
I was just studying Leviticus one, one. Oh, man. Here. I'm gonna share it with you. I know this, this podcast, you're losing all your viewers. Well, there are no viewers and this is what they're here for moments like that. Yeah. So, I mean, listen to this, the Lord summoned, Moses, and spoke to him from the tent of meeting, saying, speak to the people of Israel and say to them.
So I've got into a little bit verse two, but okay. First things first. The Lord is speaking to Moses from the tent of meeting. Okay. And they know the tent of meeting is like the, the dwelling place of God on earth. And this is part of what. So I just began to break down the tent of meeting. What's the deal there.
And you began to see that all of scripture is this entire journey of God wanting to dwell with his people. Right. And this should not be, I mean, I don't know, I find this fascinating, but if you look, you go all the way back to Genesis one. What you see is that it's a building project. God is building a space for him, self to rest and dwell in the midst of creation with what he has created.
Why? Because he loves. And what does love do. Must create. Do you know what I mean? It asked to, so if you know, I'm not going to get into a ton of it here, but if you look at ancient cosmologies, you look at all of this stuff, this idea of the seven layers and the ziggurat and the temple and all of that.
And, and you see the, kind of the movement of how things were built and temples were built. And. All of this, you'll see connections between Genesis one and those things. And you'll, you'll see that there is this gradual movement that God is doing to create this space or this area, or think about it like a house he's creating rooms in these house and this house right in the criminal law and eventually day seven, which is the climax.
Okay. A lot of times humans, we we're like, well, day six is a climax. Madman man. It's like, no, no. Day seven is a climax Sabbath. When God rested from his labors, he sat down in his easy chair and was like, look at what I've done. And, and he dwelled with his creation. That's the climax, right? So this moment where God and humanity are unified.
In Sabbath rest. If you look now, if you look at this structure of Genesis you can take it all throughout the Bible and you'll see it come up in different places in the book of Exodus. And I'm not making this stuff up. This is just stuff I've read, sort of studied and then pinpointed. Out of the spirit led me to where someone else led me to.
If you look at an excess, you look at the speeches about the building of the tabernacle. Okay. You'll see that there are seven major speeches of God, each one coincides with the day of creation and it comes to this place of God, of the tabernacle being built and again, another dwelling place. And so you have the cosmos of Genesis one, and then you have an ascent.
A local cosmos of the tabernacle being built. And again, a dwelling place regard with God and his people, right? And this intimate relationship, this fellowship union with the Lord. Now look in Genesis one in in the Sabbath day, it says it, God. Sanctified it. Wow. It's the only time in Genesis where it's used as a verb.
It's the first time it's mentioned in the Bible, this idea of holy sanctified, he sanctifies it. He does the same language, comes up with the tabernacle in Exodus and in Genesis three, human beings are exiled from this space. And so God wants to bring that back and he begins to that nexus. And then we get to Leviticus and the video, this is where we see the road back to fullness the road back to dwelling for, for people.
And as you go through it, the Lord summoned, Moses, and spoke to him. From the tent of meeting, that's all Leviticus begins. Okay. Then we get all of these, you know, I don't want to call them rules, but really these rituals, these, these, I want to say Rhodes or ways back into the presence of God. Right? Yeah.
Tony: As I hear you talking about it, it almost feels like.
What you're suggesting is that Leviticus, the book that I've purposely skipped over and ignored and encouraged, lots of people to do the same. Forgive me, Lord is like a roadmap on how to date
Rob: God. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So is that I mean, yeah.
Tony: Yeah. It's probably a little, a little, rash, but I mean.
Rob: It's worship, right.
So yes. And that's okay. That's even called dating God. I mean that's yeah, because, because human beings are made to worship God, that's our first thing, foremost worship worship. And that's the right relationship. Leviticus. Look, if you take just the Torah, right? The first five books, what's the book in the center of the Torah.
Leviticus. If you look at Exodus and numbers, they mirror one another, as well as Genesis and Deuteronomy, they mirror one another at the center is Leviticus. What is Leviticus? All it's Godspeed. The whole book is God's, but you get a little bit of narrative here and there, but really it's the Lord spoke to Moses and said the Lord spoke to him and it's, it's just the voice of God.
What's wonderful. As you see in Genesis and Exodus, you see the movement of God's people, right. And then in numbers and Deuteronomy, you see the movement of God's people, Leviticus. There's no movement there still. God is teaching. God is revealing. God is telling it's right there in the center of the book.
The whole thing is about how you come into the presence of the Lord. And when you get to the end of Leviticus, Ashley, they've learned how this process is supposed to work. The Lord spoke from the tent of meeting in the beginning of numbers. The Lord spoke to Moses in the wilderness of Sinai in the tent of meeting.
Yay. I know, right? Like. It's all connected. It's all there. And then there's more, there's a ton more and I've totally nerded out. But this w we could spend forever on just the five offerings, the five sacrifices we could spend forever on Leviticus 16 on the festivals, the festivals that come up.
Genesis Genesis one where it talks about, you know, these lights were created for the seasons, right? Yeah. So we read that and we think, oh, winter and summer, that's what the lights are now the Hebrew word there for seasons. It's the same word used for a festival is the same word used for tent of meeting it's the lights are created.
To tell time by these festivals of appointment of meeting the Lord all of time turns on this, it doesn't turn on winter and summer, and that helps us, but all of time is liturgical. You know what I mean? Like, and it's liturgical in the sense that, well.
Tony: If all of creation was made to worship God, then that just makes sense.
Rob: It's all. So now saying all that, we realize that. Leviticus is not the end. Right? Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of this. We don't have to wait for Sabbath on the seventh day, we can have Sabbath any moment we want because of the Lord Jesus, because he is the way the truth and the life, right? He is the ultimate sacrifice, the ultimate offering, but we can look at Leviticus and gain wisdom from it, what it says.
Who, who God is his character and what he desires of us. And while the, the law, the one sacrifice has been given once, and for all, we give our sacrifice of praise. We give our sacrifice of worship and we come into the presence of the Lord and we see that like it says in Leviticus six, it talks about the fire that must never die out, right.
That the priests are supposed to be there continually stoke in that flame time and time. Well, you gotta do this. You and I we've got to do the same thing except now the altar is no longer in the wilderness over here. And the dwelling place is no longer the tabernacle, the dwelling places, you and me, right?
The dwelling place. Is now been sanctified by the blood of Christ in the fire is within you and me and we are priests, holy priests in a holy nation now called the church. And our job is to tend to that flame constantly. We do it through prayer word, worship fellowship. We continue to give sacrifices of praise for what he's done in Jesus.
And there's more, I mean, you know,
Tony: I mean, so can you take that and then make an argument that the reason that the holy spirit came and tongues of fire is because of that?
Rob: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think, I mean, shoot, you, it's all connected. It's all connected, man. It's all connected. And it's, and it's all connected to you.
It's yeah. It's all connected to Jesus and then Jesus brings you into it. Right. And. Oh my gosh. I mean, I've just been kind of rambling here, but if I had my notes, there'll be more, but there's, there's just so good. This is so good. Yeah, it is. The Bible is pattern after pattern of revelation and when the holy spirit is at work and I mean, the language of scripture is in some ways, symbol, I mean, it's, it's rich, it's multilayered.
Right, right. The holy spirit, he reveals, like he says, in John, he reveals, he reminds you of what Jesus said. He testifies who Jesus is. He's your new advocate. He does all these things. And he, he, he brings out the depths of, of all of these different symbols that are not metaphors. They're true. I mean, how do you explain when Jesus says I am the bread of life?
You think? Well, that's a metaphor. Well, yeah. He really is the bread of life. I don't know how to explain it, but the Eucharist has a power to it, you know? And he is the light of the world. He is light. He actually gives light to my life. I don't know how it works, but he does. Right. He is the, the water of life and, you know, it's and why?
Because he made it all. So, so when you look outside, okay, I'm sorry. I'm like. And you stop me whenever it's good. But when you look outside, we, the Bible is meant to interpret us and interpret the world for us. So as we learn what the different symbolic languages throughout scripture, and I don't mean the Bible code, that's ridiculous.
I mean like, like there's real hard and fast concrete symbols in the word. That means something. When you see a tree out there, we are. To think of two things. First, we are meant to think of the Lord who is the tree of life. Yeah. Right. He died on the tree and we pick the fruit now from that tree of life.
Right. We're also meant to see ourselves because as the Lord goes, so we are supposed to go. So if you look at Genesis one again, let's go back there. If you look at Genesis one and you look at the days on the third day you, you get this God said, let the waters under the sky be gathered together.
Okay, you got that. And then God called the dry land earth and the waters that were gathered together, he called seas. And then God said, let the earth put forth vegetation. Two things happen on that day, which is unusual. Usually it's one thing that God is doing. We hear two things are happening now.
That you can see days one, two, and three create like the space in which days, four or five and six will fill. Okay. Yeah. If you look at the mirror of day three, you get day six, right? And on day six, you see, let us make oh right before that, the earth bring forth. Living creatures, every kind, cattle, creeping things, all these things God made animals know.
And then you see 'em humankind as well. And you see this mirror of the, of these two things, the, the creatures and the humans and the things that the plants, plants, the trees, and you see this right away. There is this connection that the writer is making between trees, plants, and human beings. And it goes all throughout scripture.
God says, I will plant you. Right. And also for, from you is going to come forth a seed, right? In the same way, the vegetation is called to bring forth seed human beings are called to bring forth seed. You know, I mean someone who's the man that, that meditates on the word day and night. A tree planted by streams of water.
Right. Wow. What does the Lord say in sermon on the Mount? He says you know, you can tell a person is by the fruit that they bear like a tree, right. I mean, on and on the scripture is telling us, I want you to see the world as I've made it. The world is meant to remind you of me. Yeah. So you see a tree, think of yourself and think of me.
The Lord is a rock. Yeah. Okay. We know he's a rock Deuteronomy all throughout the Lord is a rock. You know, health is a rock. You and me, Peter, he's called the rock. Like we are called to be like him. Right. And so when we look at rocks stones, we should think the Lord, and I'm called to be like that steadfast, like the Lord, all of this it's meant to transform the way you see.
Jesus says the way you understand the way, you know, you know, and those who, if you have ears to hear eyes, to see. So I love it. I mean, it's, it's powerful, isn't it?
Tony: I feel like you're blowing people's brains right now in the best way possible in the best way possible.
Rob: And I should be clear. I'm not just coming up with this.
I mean, this is sure, sure.
Tony: It's steady and it's, it's kind of, God has been revealing some things to you and that's, I mean, it's really the whole reason why we're here, right? As you were talking about this and I was like, the whole world needs. And so part of this is because I want Rob to write a book about this.
Rob: Right.
Tony: Of which he's a little resistant, but he's prayerfully taking it under consideration. So Rob, thank you so much for your time and your insight and your passion and the way that you love Jesus and follow him and for being so vulnerable and open about that. If somebody wants to get in touch with you about some of the things that you've shared, or they, you know, they, they want to underwrite your, your book experience what's the best place for them to find you.
Rob: I, should I give you my email? Well, we can always put it in there. It's up to you. Okay. Yeah. I w I mean, I don't care. Yeah, sure. Okay. It's rev Rob Olmer one. That's a it's R E V R O B U L M as in Mary, E R. And the number one. At gmail.com.
Tony: And we'll link to that in the show notes. Of course, as we always do you're not you're on, or you're not, you're on Facebook, but you're not really on social media at Todd.
You're not, you're not putting out content all the time. Not yet. I can't get them to do it. Yeah.
Rob: I get into like every once in a while I'll do like a little devotions, you know what I mean? Like, and I know, you know, to be honest, Tony, I didn't know how it worked until I kind of saw the way you do it.
All right. Well, that's pretty good. And I'm not just like smoking. Yeah.
Tony: So okay. Last question. I always love to ask people, you know, cause you know, it's an advice question except I get to take you back to a very specific point in time. And so I want to ask you what advice you would give the younger version of yourself on your very first Sunday in your very first time.
As a lead pastor.
Rob: Okay. Very first, Sunday, very first pulpit as a lead pastor.
Tony: The lead as the lead guy, you walk in and everyone's like, this is, this is God's church and he's put you in charge of it. What are you what are you, what are you saying to your younger version of yourself?
Rob: Well, the first thing I thought of when you said that was. Dude, sit down and shut up.
But and I say that jokingly, but also really what I mean is take a break. Go slow, go real slow and wait for the Lord. Yeah. I think, I think I'd say just patience. It doesn't all have to happen, so just wait and he's got it.
Tony: I love it. Yeah. Rob, thank you so much for being so generous today for your time, for your commitment to, to what you're doing to, to share the kingdom.
And we continue to pray for you in the midst of your transition.
Rob: Thanks man. I'm praying for you. Thanks. Man.
Tony: I love that conversation with Rob it's. So life-giving and who would've thought Leviticus his favorite book of the Bible, but I love the connections and I love the way that he sees scripture in such a complete way.
So thankful for his time, his generosity for his gift. I'll tell you that maybe shoot him a note. This conversation impacted you. It's always good to hear from people. And I'm thankful for rod. Generosity is willingness to step out of his comfort zone. Again, friends, don't forget to hit the subscribe button, leave a rating or review on iTunes and share this episode with a friend.
That's three things that you can do really help really help the podcast next week. I'm excited to bring you a brand new episode and I look forward to connecting with you guys real soon. And remember, if you want to follow Jesus, you must be willing to move.
