#129: Mitchel Lee: Even If
Have you ever wondered what it means to have an "Even if..." type of relationship with God?
Can I worship even if I don't understand?
Can I surrender even if I am in the fire?
We answer these questions and so much more as I sit down with pastor, speaker, and author Mitchel Lee. Pastor Mitchel is a much needed voice in a very chaotic world.
Links:
EP. 129
Tony: [00:00:00] Hey everybody. Welcome back to the Reclamation Podcast, where our goal is to help you reclaim good practices for faith and life. I'm Tony. And today is episode 1 29 of the podcast where I sit down with speaker, author and pastor Mitchell Lee, pastor Mitchell has this brand new book out a resource about how to proclaim God's goodness, even if.
Life isn't going the way you intended, even if you're in the wilderness, even if you're feeling overloaded, I love this conversation. He's got a passenger. We talk about what to pay attention to. We talk about counter rifts. We talk about lament. There are so many good parts in here. If you're feeling overwhelmed, this is the podcast for you.
And if you do enjoy it, do me a favor. Hit that subscribe button, wherever you listen to podcasts, leave a rating review on iTunes and be sure to share this episode with a friend, tell them how it impacted your life. [00:01:00] We appreciate all that you do to help build this platform and all that God is doing in and through all of you to let people know about the reclamation podcast and about our brand new ministry partners, spirit in truth.
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It's a huge help. If you go out and support us in this way, we really appreciate it. And now, without any further ado, here's my conversation. With Mitchell Lee. Hey everybody. Welcome back to the podcast. I'm excited today to have a writer pastor and speaker Mitchell Lee with us coming from right in between DC and Baltimore.
Mitchell. Thank you so much for being here today.
Mitchel: Telling you what a joy to be with you, [00:02:00] man. I'm looking forward to.
Tony: Yeah. And so you've got a brand new resource out and th it's got such an interesting title. It draws you in right away the words, or even if, and so I'm wondering if you could kind of give us an overview about how, how do you come to a title like that?
And, and as Christians, when we read that what should we be reading into?
Mitchel: Yeah. Great question. You know, the title really comes out of Daniel chapter. Verse 17 to 18, actually the NIV version of Daniel chapter three, and the actual weight of the message comes out of a deep wilderness in my own life. That a place, a time period where.
Man life is not going the way that I thought it was supposed to go. I felt like I had just been punched and man, did God pass me by? Did I get disqualified? What did I do? Like what's happening here? And it was in that wilderness where I was of all things was listening [00:03:00] to the radio and, and Chuck Colson Chuck Colson broadcast.
Where they're talking about this British story of Dunkirk and how this, the, these, this British regiment that was trapped on the, on the coast of France sent this two word message back to England, even if, and it galvanized the country to start this evacuation thing called operation overlord, which actually happened in history.
And the actual point of the broadcast Tony was. How most of us today, if we got that message, we would have no idea it was coming from scripture. And it was actually about like our biblical illiteracy. Oh, wow. But God used that. So that, that little bit of an even if to propel me into, well, what is that message from?
And it comes from a Sunday school in Daniel, chapter three a Sunday school lesson where Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego are standing before king Nebuchadnezzar, most powerful man on the planet at that time. And he threatens them, [00:04:00] says, if you don't bow to my statue, I'm going to throw you in this furnace.
And these three young men say, well, if you do a king our God can deliver us from the furnace. And then here's the turn. But even if he doesn't, we're not going to worship any other God. In essence, these three young men were saying, even if God doesn't do what we know he could and what we believe he.
Even if he doesn't do that and we're still going to worship him. And that launched me into a journey of discovering, like, who do I really say God is when I say put my trust in him. And where does that kind of resolve to believe him, to trust him, to worship him when life is just going upside down. Where does that come from?
And that's really the Genesis of this message.
Tony: You know, you mentioned a word in there that seems to be a little bit of a hot button word lately, which is wilderness. Right. And, you know, in this season of COVID, it feels different than it ever has before. [00:05:00] And so I'm curious, I think a lot of us who are following Jesus don't necessarily know when we're in the wilderness.
Do you have some Hey, this might be a sign that you're, you're in a season known as the wilderness and, and what should we do in the midst of it?
Mitchel: Yeah, the, I mean, first of all, let's look at just if we just think biblically. Yeah. Think about every major leader, every major character that God used, they all have a wilderness, even Jesus has a wilderness period.
So how would I describe the wilderness? It could be that time. You're just really like, wow, this is not what I expected. So for me, the beginning of that wilderness, where even if came about was I was graduating from seminary and I got fired from the church that I'd been serving at all during seminary, the church that I grew up in 20 plus years.
Wow. I got fired because. My senior pastor had heard that I wanted to go and do more studies. So he didn't ask me, he just hired my replacement. Let me know like that sort of craziness where you [00:06:00] just get unsettled. So other things in the wilderness is you're in a place of real discomfort that you feel very vulnerable.
And if you just think about you know, my wife and I love backpacking. When you're in the wilderness and you've got everything that for your survival on your back, you feel very vulnerable. All it takes is a turned ankle all towards, towards it takes to the nasty staying water, not being where you thought it would be.
You are really vulnerable and dependent. That's also wilderness through chart church history. You get a church fathers cause like John Kasey and talking about the dark night of the soul, this place where God feels absent, where is he? What, what what's happening? Silent. You feel dry that you feel discouraged.
A lot of these things can contribute and describe the warmness, which you're right. I mean, COVID was a, quite a forced wilderness for many of us.
Tony: Do you think that, do you think that the, the seasons of wilderness let [00:07:00] me ask it a different way. I have that question. That's kind of brewing in my head about, you know, whether or not sometimes there's a forced wilderness with like COVID, but sometimes it seems like maybe just through poor life choices, I choose the wilderness.
Is there a difference in the outcome when it comes to the. Or is it a posturing that happens inside the wilderness that, that really begins to nudge us and shape us and inform us in that season?
Mitchel: Yeah, I mean, that's, that's the good news of having a God who is good, that whether you are thrust into the wilderness of your own choosing or whether it's just the brokenness of life, that there's the potential.
In the wilderness or sometimes the Bible will use the imagery of the valley or the desert or in Daniel three, the furnace, when you find yourself in the valley, the wilderness, the furnace, [00:08:00] there is the possibility for real transformation there. It doesn't have to be the end of you. Here's the crazy thing.
Even if your circumstances don't, you. Okay. Like when I'm in the valley, when you're in the valley, that's the first thing we want. Right. We were praying, God, change. My circumstances changed my circumstances. If you look at the story of Daniel three, God actually doesn't save them for the furnace, but he is with them in it.
Right. So much that it never condenser looks. And he's like, wait didn't we put three guys in the furnace. Why are there four? And they come out, they don't even smell like smoke and never kinda just says, well, surely your God is the God of gods because he was with you in it. And I think that that is, I mean, that's some, one of the things that I really wanted to communicate in the message of even if was that.
You know, kind of the way, even the way that the question was formed for you. Like, isn't that the kind of advice we usually get when we find ourselves in the wilderness, like you must've done something or, or, or how did this happen? Like, everybody wants to interpret it for us as if when [00:09:00] we, if, if we were able to discover causation, that's gonna actually make it more fruitful or less.
Rather, I would say it this way. It's not really what caused your wilderness. It's the fact that when you are in the wilderness, there is the real possibility of transformation by God's very presence with you in it. And that's when we can declare it.
Tony: So I'm going to guess that to get to a place where we can declare even if requires some work before we get into the wilderness, before we get into the fire. I mean, even if we look at the story of Daniel three, their faith didn't start in the fire. W where, if somebody wants to claim the even is if declaration, where's a good place to start when they're not in the midst of you know, that sort of.
Mitchel: Yeah. You know, I mean, a friend of mine said it this way. He says, you have to decide who God is before you get to the furnace. Right. And in that sense, it's like, even if declaration is really in two point parts, there's the [00:10:00] confidence in God's goodness. And then there's the resolve to worship him when life goes sideways.
And so like constantly, and the practice of our lives is to build the good, like our competence in the goodness of God for a lot of people, you know, here's a, here's an interesting extra size. If I were to say, Hey, what makes God good? Or describe God in his goodness. Like how long would your list go? Right.
For a lot of people that say, oh, well, you know, he's loving he's patient, he's gracious. And then maybe after 30 seconds, it would kind of and I think the practice of building our competence in the goodness of God is how do I make that list? How do I continue to search into whether it's in the scriptures or whether it's in the beauty of creation, whether it's in the ways that we experienced God's goodness, in the mundane moments of every day of our lives, how do we continue to build a resume of God's goodness.
And, and then to remember that [00:11:00] again and again, like if you've got little kids that we were trying this with our kids right now, you can raise, even if worshipers a little kids is each day saying, Hey, where did we experience? God's goodness. What did we experience has been this today? Right? Sometimes in the car we do this like silly road game.
You know, if it's a long road trip where we'll do like a through Z and everyone will pick a category and then we have to lay name like a, and you know, we'll do it with things like Marvel superheroes, ready to go, Hey man, beat you guys. And people will kind of talk that, try and doing that with God, the characters of God, characteristics of God.
It's, it's quite a. It's quite an exercise to try, right? Oh gosh. A gosh is a sanity where the God is independent, right? Is B's beauty. See his compassion, right. And to continue to grow this understanding worship of his goodness before the fire that's what's going to create that confidence. So I [00:12:00] always
Tony: love to drill down on something like this.
I'm curious, what are some of the practices that you do on a regular basis that keep you in that even if space or, you know, let's maybe in my example, I don't always feel like I'm in that even if space. So, you know, if I need to be bumped back, what are some of the, like, what can I do on a random Tuesday if I'm not taking a long road trip and want to play the characteristics of God game?
Mitchel: Every night, every night. And this is a practice that I've actually started during COVID every night I recall the day and it's actually an ancient practice called the examine. But I do this each night and I recall the day I start at from one, I wake up and I just go through the hours and actually this doesn't take very long.
Tony, it takes me maybe about five, 10 minutes.
I have a, I just go through it and mentally schedule, who did I meet with what happened? And as I'm going through it, I'll think through [00:13:00] what was evoked in me in those moments. Like when did I sense God's presence real close with me today? And then here's the, also the important part. Where did I sense his absence or my ignorance from his presence?
As I recall recall it, this is different than just what did I do? Good. And what did I do bad? This is about. Center ourselves. And where was God? Where was I aware that God was present with me today? And where was I not? And then even in that, I'll say, God, what, is there something more that you want to show me?
Right. So I'll give you an example of this last night I was doing this. I was coming back from a trip actually. And so I get home. I usually do this run nine o'clock to nine 30, somewhere in that period. Again, it only takes me about five, 10 minutes and I was recounting. Where did I send Scott's presence in.
You know, I, I sensed God's presence. The goodness of God, when I walked through the door, I hadn't seen my family all week. I walked through the door and my kids, just my youngest just run like that egg gives me this huge hug and I really sensed God's presence in that. Right? Like [00:14:00] just the embrace of God's love.
Where do I sense his absence? I was sharing an email with a friend and he kind of dismissed the email as, oh, that's just being manipulative. If somebody is being manipulative to you. I didn't think of it at the moment, but when I was recounting, I was like, oh, man, that felt like, like, I just didn't sense the love of God in that conversation.
Right. What both for me and for the person who was, who had written that email to me, and I'm thinking through that and just God, what do you want me to show? What do you want to show me about that? Just that little five to 10 minute exercise Tony every day. And here's the beautiful thing. The cumulative effect.
Is that I look forward to that evening thing, but it also makes me more aware as the day is going on. Oh, God's God's present here. Oh, I forgot. You know maybe some of the listeners they can identify with this. Like you ever have that, those experiences. I have it way too often. We have a great quiet time in the morning.
And then you go about your day. [00:15:00] And the nine to five, like you live as an atheist, right? You're like, you don't even recognize that God was with you. Right. And then even in the evening, then you just go into the evening, you go to sleep, you wake up, then you do your quiet time again. And you're like, oh yeah, I totally forgot that.
And what it does for me, at least as a small baby step is if I start in the morning and I end in the evening recounting God's goodness and his presence with me, those bookends are pretty amazing practice to really root yourself in the remembrance of who God is. And that remembering is everything because we have just, we're just prone to forget.
Right. And that's it. God, here's the. God knows. We prone to forget. Amen. Right estimate God knew his people would forget all these things. So what does he do? Okay. I want you to remember with this ceremony. Oh. And since you're even more prone to forget than you realize I'm going to attach some food to it.
I'm going to give you a meal of feasts that I want you [00:16:00] to do. And you're going to eat this reading and be like, oh yeah, this is, we got to remember. We got to remember God's goodness, we've got to remember what he's done. And that remembering really is the foundational practice behind declaring. Because if you forget that God has been good to you or that he is good when you face that furnace and it's burning hot.
You're going to forget.
Tony: Right. And so we have to keep on this practice of remembering, but it seems like that idea that it's a or creating a new soundtrack for a life in a lot of ways. And one of the things that you talk about in the book is the idea of what you call counter EFS. I'm I'm wondering if you could talk about what some of the counter graphs are, how do we, how do we define them?
How. Well, I, you know, I guess we kind of talked a little about how we beat them out of existence, but how do we identify them? Maybe just start there.
Mitchel: Yeah. So the, the, what is it counter if a counter, if is this, it's how we live and manage in this inevitable space between what we desired [00:17:00] hoped for expected versus.
Right. All of us have this gap. So it could be about anything. It could be about your vocation right now. Like, man, I thought by now I would be at X point, but. Y, and that gap between X and Y between a reality where you are and your expectations. We filled those with our counter ifs as a way to try to get our reality, to match our, what we're hoping for and expecting.
So there's lots of them. I tried to categorize at least three of them that I see most commonly in, in my pastoral experience and in my own life and heart, the first is what I call, instead of saying, even if we say only if. And those are your conditions, the conditions you put on God, they're very subtle.
They start oftentimes in really sincere places. Kind of a sincere desire. Oh, if, if, if God, you could heal or if God you could provide, or if God, you could move or if God, you could work and [00:18:00] transform and in a structure that this very sincere even kingdom oriented desire times, but then with enough disappointments or enough silence, it can, we can calcify them.
It becomes hardened though. Almost like. We, we tighten our grip on what we're asking God for. And they become these only if only if you do this, God will. I believe that I'm loved only if you do this, will I believe that my life matters. So that's the first kind of this condition. The second I could call them, I call them regrets again, when life right where we're living, doesn't match up to what we had hoped for.
And that's the, if only's, if only something had been different or, you know, there's three types of regrets, there's. You know, your broken past regrets. If only I hadn't made that mistake, if only I hadn't done that. And so we live our lives in our current reality, trying to make up for what we did in the past, but there's also the golden past regrets where if only I could get back to the faith of 10 years ago, if only I could [00:19:00] and relive the golden years, right.
And we begin to believe. God, God doesn't love us as the current version of us right now, because he wants us to be like we were when we were 10 years ago and we're a much more passionate or sincere. And the third kind of regret is this idea of the imaginary president, or I called them fantasy regrets.
And I think this is actually the one that I've seen grip the most people. And it's, it's this idea that where I am right now, my life. Isn't what I had imagined, where I would be in my life right now. And you'll know this because you'll in your mind or you'll say it out loud. I should. Dot.dot by now.
Right? I should be further along by now. I should be over that habitual sin by now. I should be, have it altogether by now. My kids should be listening better to me by now. My marriage should be. And we compare our current version with the imaginary version of ourselves right now. That's like, oh man, I [00:20:00] should be right.
My church should be bigger by now. Or man, when I, when I, I had fantasy regrets, when I, when I released this book, right. These, these, like this insecurity rising up within me and it's like, oh, I should have done five books by now. Right? Like, and here's the thing that happens. Right. We believe that God compares us with that imaginary version of ourselves.
And we're co and we believe that we're a constant disappointment to him. Right. And so that's, those are the kind of like fantasy regrets. I think that played lots. I would just say about just about every one of us. Cause life, no matter how successful you are, it's never as good as it is in your imagined version of it.
And then the third kind of counter, if is the, what ifs, the contingencies where anxiety and fear either paralyzed. Or cause us to try to control more. And we think of all these, what ifs, what if this happens? What if that happens? What if, and sometimes you're trying to bail God out in case he fails us or, you know, [00:21:00] like all sorts of these kinds of control mechanisms.
We try to go deeper no more. We try to tighten our grip on the people we love, or we're trying to quote unquote. These what ifs can absolutely drive us into trying to be God or worse. They can just leave us paralyzed. So those are three kind of categories of, of, of counter ifs. That I, I, that I tried to commute.
Tony: Do you think that each now I know we've talked about the, even if kind of practices and the gratitude and the characters of God, is that the solution to each one? Or do we need to, and I'm not trying to make you my therapist here, but like, when I struggle with like the what ifs or the fantasy regrets kind of thing, like do I need to handle those separately or is if I just focus on the, the true character of God, you know, before we get to those spaces, will that automatically will that battle back?
Will it do what I needed to do to put me back into a healthy place?[00:22:00]
Mitchel: I would say yes and no, like it's a good place to start the character of God, but yeah. Christians. And we're so good at doing this as we're so good at operating in the vague generalities, right of, oh God, God's good. God's got this. God will be with you.
Where if you look at the way that God's grace transforms us, like God's, grace is so particular for the unique needs of our life. So if you're struggling with a fantasy regret of an, if only I was more blank, Like, I think that there's a unique, even if that, that can be birthed out of that, that, you know what, even if, even if my life right now never manage it measures up to the fantasy version of me this life right now, who I am is the one that Jesus died for, not the imposter version of me, not the imaginary version of me.
And so I will worship [00:23:00] him. I will worship him because he knows this life that I'm living right now. And he has grace for me in this life. So there are, I think there are a very unique lens, specific things that we have to speak over the. Here's the funny thing. Once you say, even if over one thing, it's like a game of whack-a-mole another counter, right?
It's just, and they formed this kind of unholy, Trinity. Like you're, if onlys are actually a response or you're only ifs are actually a response to your, if only's, and they're trying to be worked out by your what ifs, I mean, they're all this, this, this unholy Trinity that's connected. And we declare even if over each of those things in each moment that the Lord reveals them to us.
And in that sense, I'd like to say that the, even if it's not a declaration, it's not a one and done deal. Yeah. It's not this banner that you raise up and you're done. It's really more like a tapestry where each moment you declare, even if it's like a thread that you pull [00:24:00] through, As you, as you weave your unique, even if declaration over your life.
That's the kind of faith. I believe that that even if declaration helps you.
Tony: Yeah. In our Wesleyan tradition, we really like to throw that sanctification word around a lot of this. This feels like the sanctification process, that, that every day I'm going to just try to pick up more of Christ and more of Christ, even if, you know, you know, even if right, like it's a sanctification kind of almost like a litmus test, it feels like.
Mitchel: Yeah. And it's a deliberate act of declaration. I like to say that even if declaration is not an even so declaration and what I mean by it's like, even, so it's just kind of a passive, like case Eros, Eros, fatalistic, like, okay, well it happened. Well, I'm just going to worship God. That's, that's not the, even if decoration, even if it's looking directly into your disappointment, looking directly into your confusion, looking directly into your hurt.
[00:25:00] And, and saying it and naming it before the Lord. I mean, here's an important practice. The Bible calls it lament, but you can also call it confession, not confession in the sense of like sin, but confession in sense of saying what is so. Like, like, God, I, gosh, I had these, I have these regrets. God, I wish that I was further along than I am right now.
And to speak that to God. And then, and then in, in that speaking, it is where the, even if declaration comes up, cause it's like, but even if I'm not there, I know that you love me where I am right now. So I worship you or God, I'm so driven by this anxiousness and. I'm bringing that to you because I know that you're a good God who knows what I need and you'll give it to me even.
So even if it doesn't this, this risk doesn't pan out, I will worship.
Tony: I love the idea of even if worshiper and especially how it's tied to Daniel three, because one of the things that we see in Daniel three is that there are three guys [00:26:00] who are kind of facing this fire together. I wonder if you might speak to the person who thinks they can enter into this process as a lone ranger versus community how important is community to, to be coming.
And even if.
Mitchel: Man, I would say community so important because life is that hard life is so, so hard, right? I mean, yeah. You're probably like me, Tony. Like I'm so sick of. I'm so sick and tired of cancer. Like I just can't wait to when Jesus returns and cancer gets its dude like, ah, I'm so tired of cancer. And I I've heard it so many times for, from beloved cancer folks who are walking through that journey who are trying and, and with sometimes with a whisper and sometimes the defiant shout or declaring.
To a person, they say, man, how does a [00:27:00] person go through this alone? Right. Can never go through this alone. Right. And so when you ask the question, like how does community help raise an even if declaration, like we need community because life is hard. Right. And, and with all, its with all its drawbacks, right?
I mean, I, I talk about the book of job and how. Job is such an interesting case study for us in terms of how our conditions birth. And it's actually from community that all the complications come. Right. I mean, he's, I love that. I love the end of to where, like, they're just literally sitting in with him in the ashes for seven days.
Nobody's speaking a word they're just there. They're they're holding space for. And then they break in and then they're like, they start talking and they're like, Joe, you must've done something wrong. You must not have met some of God's conditions. Come on, come clean. Let's figure this thing out. And job's like, no, I don't know what, like, no, really, really, really don't.
And so sometimes community can complicate [00:28:00] matters. Yeah, really can. But man, my prayers, like, I don't know where I would be if I didn't have people who came and sat in the ashes. I didn't say a word and just for seven days, like they remind me of the goodness of God when the furnace is burning really, really, really hot.
And I think it's it's life is too hard to just rely on ourselves, to give ourselves a pep talk or to remind ourselves it can get that dark. Right. The fire can get that hot. It can get that bleak. And we need community to remind us of the goodness of God. Maybe it's just a meal. Maybe it's a phone call.
Maybe it's somebody who just holds space for you and sits there with you in the ashes and weeps with you. Those are the little reminders that we need that hold us in the goodness of God that I'm not forgotten. I'm not forsaken. And that the Lord is.
Tony: Now, one of the things that it feels like you've you're, you're managing to hold the intention is what a [00:29:00] multi-ethnic community looks like.
I, I know at grace that's one of the things that you guys are striving for and and, and working towards how important from your perspective is it to, to have people who are willing to sit in the ashes, who, who don't, who don't look and act like us?
Mitchel: Oh, gosh, you know, this, this, I mean, in our, in our popular culture, this whole idea of holding space for each other.
You know, if we, if we remove that from all of the tension type of things, like how amazing and what a sign of the power of the gospel team, Ida. If I can sit with you, even when I don't understand your pain or where you're at, but because simply by the fact that in Christ, we belong to each other. Right.
I mean, just, just, just, just, just think about that for a second. Like, man, I don't understand [00:30:00] your life story, your background. I don't even understand where the pain of this come from. And quite frankly, it even makes me uncomfortable, but because I belong to you and I love you and Christ has reunited us together, I will sit here with you and I don't have a single piece of advice to give to you.
All I have is the ministry of presence with. And then when we part, I, I invoke the ministry of absence and that the spirit will continue the work that he has been doing while we were together when we're apart. And that's the, that's the beauty of it. And the more divergent your contexts are, the more powerful that sitting together.
Tony: How do we begin to, how do we begin to kind of broach some of those intentional diverse relationships? How do we, how do we build community from your perspective, or even in your practice like that, that promotes holding that tension for each other, that promotes [00:31:00] sitting in the ashes that promotes that idea of like, Hey, I'm, I'm here for you.
I may not understand what you're going through, but but even. You know, w we're facing this, I I'm with you. How, how do we, how do we build that kind of intentional diverse community?
Mitchel: I think a big part of it is curiosity. We get curious about each other. All right, wait, we get curious about each other and what God is doing in the world.
And, you know, sometimes we, we, you know, I don't, I don't remember. I was racking my brain actually about this. Tony. I was trying to think what was at what age did I stop being. Or at what age was, I told curiosity kills the cat. Yeah. And so we shouldn't be curious cause it'll just get you into trouble.
Right. And so then we stopped being curious. I feel like it was middle. So then we go to our media middle school for you. Huh? I was like, wracking my brain, you know? No, [00:32:00] maybe, maybe. And there is a certain kind of curiosity where it's like, oh, don't go into that. Or be careful of those, those areas on the web or things like that that were curiosity can get you into some trouble.
But I don't think that's a blanket thing, right? Like we have to stay curious about each other. You know, think about in your ministry, like who are the hardest people to disciple or to be in relationship with it's the people who know it all or who think like, you know what I w I w I watched two YouTube videos, and now I'm the expert on why, I don't know why, why the scriptures are not reliable because I watched two YouTube videos.
I can refute any bit of textual criticism, right.
Tony: Talk to that person, right?
Mitchel: Yeah. We like, we get so tired. Like we stopped being curious and then we just form our opinion or perspective. And then if something else is happening, that we're not sure of we wall up, instead of getting curious about what's happening to the person you want to grow like a.[00:33:00]
You know, if you want to grow, especially cross-cultural relationships, you have to get proximate. The only way you're going to live intention is, is if you love the person who you you're experiencing that attention with, and, and you got to get curious, right? And you'll look like a fool sometimes you'll, you might, you might offend sometime and not even know it.
But it's the, I think it's that posture of humility and continual curiosity. Hey, this is really, I don't understand this right now, but it's really bothering you and you matter to me, help me and help me understand it. And you're willing to, because you're curious enough, you're willing to, even when it comes out in emotional intensity or maybe even some angry outbursts, you're not going to take that personally.
You're just holding that space, man. The more we develop that kind of resilience that, that kind of even if resolve, to say, like, even if this is really uncomfortable, like the Lord has brought us [00:34:00] together, I'm going to worship him by loving you. That could be a very, very powerful relationship.
Tony: Yes. Speaking of relationship, I'm curious.
H how do we get, even if, as kind of a woven into the, the covenant of our marriage, how, how do we bring that in? And you mentioned a little bit with the kids, which I loved, but I love to get super practical with somebody who, who maybe wants to get that joint resolve with their, the person that they love the most there's their spouse.
How, how do we, how do we build that in.
Mitchel: The really coming around, like in my marriage, the place where the, even if resolve has, has anchored us the most has been in times of risk where we've taken some risks together and in doing it, we're both nervous. And we're saying, okay as we make this decision, as we pray about it and we're like, it could go either way.
What should we do? Well, let's try to make this decision. [00:35:00] Even if it doesn't work the way we want, we're going to worship the Lord. Right. We're going to worship the Lord. Right. And you're, you're mutually strengthened in each other's resolve. So that's one thing it could be in like decisions or maybe a risk taking thing.
I think every marriage will go through it. Like when you walk through the valley of grief together, whether you lose a child or a parent or a loved one, Those are moments where, where one spouse can really remind the other spouse of the goodness of God and not in a trite sort of way. Like, Hey, it's okay if your mom died, right.
Because God is good. No, no, no. It's like, it's speaking. What is so you know, when my mom, when my mother-in-law passed away a year and a half ago, man, that wasn't even if journey for me and my wife. 'cause, they were raw. A lot of wrestling's with the, what if contingencies even after she passed my, there was this whole thing of regrets that my wife was going through.
Like, ah, [00:36:00] like, did we do the right thing and putting her in hospice? Was it too early? If only we had blah, blah, blah. And she's walking through all of these things and I'm just I'm listening for, and I'm trying as a listening also want to gently remind her like, Hey honey, we did the best. Right. And the Lord was in it and the Lord was, and we're constantly lifting each other's gaze to the goodness of God in our lives.
She's done that countless times for me. When I'm feeling battered and bruised, especially in this last year and a half of leading a church, a multi-ethnic church, man, just feeling better to bruise how many times she had to remind me of the goodness of God and not in a preachy way, but in a gentle kind, loving.
The appropriate way and that helped build my resolve.
Tony: Yeah. I, I love that. I, I think that there's so much to be learned in that may is it's like I heard you talking. I was like, oh, you're you're even if teammates. You know, and so, so, so you don't [00:37:00] have to both be and, and maybe this is another testimony to why the community is so important is because we're probably not going to be resolute in our, even if declarations all the time, there's going to be moments of, of temptation or trials or tribulations that feel almost overwhelming.
Right. And in those moments, that's where having somebody like a loving wife or you know, your, your guys who are, you're doing life with to pick you up. Man, I liked the idea of even if teammates.
Mitchel: Yeah, absolutely. Even if community, you know let's think about it in the positive sense of it. Like how many times have you been on the edge of a decision that like you, you sense God calling you to take this, but you're just.
And you're wondering if the risk and how it's going to turn out. And those are really defining moments. We can remember those moments, those moments where we said yes, or those moments where we said no. And [00:38:00] so often I have needed another pastor, a friend, my wife, to remind me that, Hey, if you take a step and it doesn't work out the way that you would hoped, you know, you're still the beloved.
You know, you're still working on house money here because you have your acceptance of what Christ has done for you. And it's, it's just been just that little bit of encouragement to help me take that half step to take that next step. So there's an even if in the sense of not even just when you face a hardship, but when you have all sort of facing an opportunity, how important is that community to say, Tony, take the step, take the step God's worthy of this.
And even if it fails, you are the beloved, that's powerful. That's powerful because the world's not going to tell you that the world's going to take tell you, you know, you're the beloved, if you're successful up until the right up into the right baby, that's where you got to go. [00:39:00] And we need people to tell us the other way.
Right?
Tony: How, how long have you been working on the, even if message like w when did this first get planted inside of you?
Mitchel: Man 2002 is a 19 year message for me. And it's, I mean, even the Genesis, the Genesis of this book is, is very different. I, I was learning through the publishing process. A lot of pastors write books out of sermons that they've preached and actually the only message I've preached on, even if, and I did probably starting from about 2000.
Was the actual, even if message Daniel chapter three, that's it, maybe the first two chapters of this book was a sermon that I read. And the rest of it is just 19 years of filing stuff in my Evernote and pastoral counseling and all of these things. And these recurring themes that when it came time, the opportunity was given to actually put this in a book.
It, it actually [00:40:00] really flowed out. I mean, it was really. A fun experience to, to take this message. That's meant so much to me in my life and to put it in. So that other people
Tony: that the timing, it, it feels like as a, the big C church kind of takes a collective breath right now. W you know, hoping, praying, believing that we might be on the downside of what has been arguably that the hardest couple of years, at least in, in most pastor's lives it feels like this is a rally cry.
Do you sense? I mean, do you sense that maybe since 2002, this has been for this season or, or, I mean, there's certainly not a coincidence.
Mitchel: Yeah. You know, the, the definitely is a Providence in it. You know, when I first submitted this manuscript, it was the beginning of 2020. So before everything shut down and then they wanted me to revise a [00:41:00] lot of things.
And so I feel like I ended up writing another book. During the first six months of COVID shutdown. And there was a great Providence in that. I think it's also the title that the message is really timeless, who doesn't face disappointments or confusion, or, and we want to trust the Lord, but we don't have the language to do it because what are we told?
Right. If you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all. And we translate. We translate that to God and we just, we just put our stuff away because we feel like God can't handle it. Or if we speak it out, God's gonna be mad at us. And, or we feel like we have to give it the positive Christian spin.
I know it's not that bad. God's going to do something great out of it. He's going to work it out. And people tell us that, or people tell us, like you must have done something in order to make, to, for this stuff to happen to you. And so then we don't know what to do with it. We're just stuck. Or [00:42:00] we just, we just really, we domesticate our faith to the point where we, like, we won't get disappointed anymore because we're not going to try anything new.
And I feel like even if there's a way for us to navigate that, to say, no, it's terrible. Like almost in right-hand in our right hand, we hold the hard, terrible trouble of life. And then our left hand, we hold the goodness of God. And we have this ambidextrous faith. That holds both of these together and we hold it for each other together as well.
I, I think, I think that's why this message will resonate because it's become out of COVID. Lot of people are going to have these regrets, these iPhone leaves they're going to, they're still continuing these. What if fears, lotta, we're going to have these conditions. Like only if God, you turn this around and a lot of people are going to have opportunities next steps that God is calling them to do.
We've got some. This is a broken troubled world we're seeing, but the gospel has this incredible power for and potential [00:43:00] for renewal and a hope and transformation. And God's going to call us to do some scary things. And if we need to have the guarantee of success on the other side, we're not going to take that step.
But if we can say, even if, even if it doesn't go exactly the way we want, we believe that you're calling us to do this, and we were going to worship you anyway. God. I think we're going to see some really amazing kingdom things unleashed as people declare, even if, and take that next step of glorifying God and worshiping him regardless of how the situation turns out.
Tony: Amen. Amen. I love that. I love that. I love your message. I'm so excited for this book to continue to do you know, what has been doing in your heart for, for many others? I know that my listeners are going to follow you all over the interwebs Mitchell. Where's the best place for them to connect with you and learn more about your ministry and, and pick up their copy of the.
Mitchel: Yeah, you can pick up the copy of anywhere books are sold, [00:44:00] Amazon Barnes and Nobel Christian book, you name it combined visit me@mitchelllee.com. We're actually working on some really unique resources room. We've got actually, I think it's launching this weekend, a family guide for even if it's just a one page front and back how to raise even if children and how to help your kids with some practices.
Recounting the goodness of God, the ABCs of God, or how to help them to say what is so when life disappoints, even at a young age, so that's a resource that'll be free on my website, Mitchell lee.com. Follow me on Instagram at rev, M Lee. And you'll see, in my bio links to this podcast, a lot of other podcasts.
My church website can kind of hear some of the messages I'm actually preaching through this for only the second time I'm preaching through, even if to my own congregation right now, we're wrapping it up this Sunday or October 3rd. And so you can catch all those and hear the messages it's worked out in preaching.
Tony: Praise God, man. Praise God. Oh, okay. Last, last question. I always love to ask [00:45:00] people. It's a, it's an advice question where I asked you to give yourself one piece of advice, except I get the name the very specific time. And and what I'd like to do is I'd like for you to go back and talk to that younger version of Mitchell the day after you got fired from the church.
Right. And so if you could sit that young man down in your office and sit and need an EA across from him, look him in the eyes. What's the one piece of advice you're going to give him as he gets ready to set out on this incredible journey called ministry.
Mitchel: I'd say, keep paying attention to what's going on inside you, right? Not what you're going to do with your life, your kingdom potential the next great opportunity. Keep paying attention to what is [00:46:00] going on inside you. What God is. In you, what God is, who God is forming you to be. My dad used to say that he was convinced that at the end of our lives, God will be far more interested in who we became even more than what we did.
And that's what I would tell myself, pay attention to the interior life. Keep paying attention to the interior life and. And it's. Yeah, I feel like the COVID has taught me that in increasing measure. It's it's kept me in it to be quite honest.
Tony: That's so good. That's so good. Mitchell, thank you so much for your generosity today for your time for, for what you're doing for the kingdom of God.
I truly appreciate you spending some time with us today. And I know you've you've touched quite a few listeners' lives, so thank you.
Mitchel: Thanks, Tony. What a joy to, to, again, to be with you. And I do pray. God by [00:47:00] his spirit and would continue to give the listeners that resolve to worship him no matter what.
Tony: Man, I love this conversation with pastor Mitchell, such good words of wisdom. I appreciate his heart. I appreciate the way he operates. I think there's so much goodness in here for all of us. I think one of my favorite parts is that that, that trouble-free life was never part of the. Man that resonates at a deep personal level.
The trouble-free life was never part of the promise. Hey, if this episode was impactful for you, do me a favor, leave a rating and review on iTunes. Make sure you hit that subscribe button and share this episode with a friend. It goes a long way to spread the word and don't forget, you can check us out and support us@spiritandtruth.life.
Remember guys, if you want to follow Jesus, you must be willing to move.
