#84: Pastor Mamie Johnson: Caught in the Undertow
Pastor Mamie Johnson is a speaker, author, and leader. She has a brand new resource that is all about helping people navigate the reality of anxiety, depression, and panic. We are all in different stages of life and Pastor Mamie has a message for you right where you are.
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Read the full transcript below!
EP. 84 Pastor Mamie Johnson
Tony: Hey everybody. Welcome back to the reclamation podcast, where our goal is to help you reclaim good practices for faith and life. I'm Tony. And today is episode 84 of the podcasts. I get to sit down with speaker, pastor, and a really just a healer pastor, Mamie Johnson, Mamie. It lives in the Ohio area and we both have some connections through United theological seminary.
But more than that, she is a voice of someone who wants to get rid of the seeds of disorder of your life. We sit down, we talk about her new book. We talk about the work that she did as we talk about how a belief, trust, how faith and how prayer has been so huge in her work, how to, how to make your mess, your message, such an uplifting and exciting episode.
I know you're going to love Mamie. She has got. She's got such a soul about her, that people are just drawn to her and I immediately sensed it. The Holy spirit is just really active and working inside of her. If you love the episode, the best thing that you can do for us is leave a rating and review on iTunes.
We really are trying to get to a hundred reviews by the end of the year. We're just about at 50. So we're halfway there. I'm not sure we're going to make it, but you can help. You can be a part of the reclamation community, leave a rating or review my team reads every one of them. So without any further ado, here's my conversation.
With pastor Mimi Johnson. Hey everybody. Welcome back to the podcast. Excited today to bring here, to be here today with the CEO, nonprofit pastor chaplain, and, really just an amazing human made me. Johnson made me thank you so much for being on the podcast today.
Pastor Mamie: And thank you, Tony, for or Tony for inviting me to be here.
I'm really humbled and I'm honored.
Tony: Well, you know what? you've got a brand new resource out called, caught in the undertow and it's all about panic and depression and, and, and about how to. How to lean into God's rescue for that. And we are recording this the day after one of the most anxiety inducing days, and we don't even know who the president is going to be yet, but, but in the world that we live in today, this can not be more of a timely resource.
So I kind of want to start there. How did you get to a place where you're like, Yep. We, God wants me to work on this next resource and it's going to be about, anxiety, depression, and panic.
Pastor Mamie: You know, it's interesting. The Lord gave me this, Impetus to write this book over a year ago, or we even knew about, you know, and didn't mix or anything like that.
And I thought, well, why do I really want to write about this book? And I, I really didn't because then that meant, meant I had to be vulnerable and open myself up to the thing, experiencing all of these. A lot of people don't like to talk about it because it makes them feel, frail or, less than, you know, normal.
So.
Needs have to succumb to these melodies at the mine. And, so I wrote it because he led me to write and it was just really weird. I, it brought me back to some memories I had of things that I went through when I suffered from all three of them. And it's very difficult to talk about things of the mind when you feel like you're out of sorts.
And a lot of people avoid it. However, One of the things I've learned in ministry and ministering to others is that we are more than physical beings. We are, we are men, we are psychological, we are spiritual beings. And when we don't address all three of those, something becomes disjointed and they all need to be addressed.
So when the Lord led me to write it, one of the things I did was I took down my walls. I believe it was Brendan Brown. She did a Ted talk. On being vulnerable that really spoke to me. And I heard that message a year ago. And I think that probably combined with God. Pushing me to write about this. It said, okay, you can, you can take down that wall and you can open yourself up to help others because we know in ministry, our whole objective is to bring Christ to another's world and that they get salvation as a result of that or that they receive salvation.
Meaning they accept Christ as their Lord. No,
Tony: I love that. And as I was looking at your writing, one of the things I was really struck by was your vulnerability. Well, one of the things that you talk about, are, Gina grams and your upbringing. And I w I was wondering if you could tell us a little about one, I'm a big genogram fan.
I had a chaplain in the army introduced to me, but I was wondering if you might share a little bit about what that is for the listeners and kind of the aha moment that you had as you started doing some of that important self work.
Pastor Mamie: You know, it's interesting when I heard the word gene and grim, and if people read that first, they probably won't read the book.
It says, why, why is she using 20 letter words? It's really helpful because, I'm a facilitator at a United theological seminary. And that was an exercise that the students were doing. And most of my students are incoming pastors. So I get to speak into those into
Tony: pay. I'm a United alum. Let's go.
Pastor Mamie: I keep fighting, trying to go back and get my doctorate.
I should go. Come
Tony: on. Let's go.
Pastor Mamie: Oh, another story. We can go together. Let's talk about that. How's that as long as we can be partners and share whatever our thesis is going to be, when I was introduced to it, it was intriguing to me because I thought here I am supposed to be facilitating. The students as they're moving through to become leaders in the church, and now I'm examining my own self and what I'm feeling about all of that.
So after introduced, I went home and I sat down and I thought there was something in here for me. And again, remember this was before God was prompting me to write this book. So Gina Graham, for those who may not understand what it is, it's similar to a family tree. However, what you're also doing is examining the characteristics.
Of those individuals, because what happens is, and if we look back what happens is the people that were around our environment, they influenced what we become. And we can see that through the news everyday of individuals who suffered from difficult things, then. I remember a young man I had in vacation Bible school one time and everybody thought he was so mean and so awful.
And he really was mean, but with me, whenever I would talk, they would sit and wait for me. And, they, the members of the church, the leaders would say, why do they wait for you? And I made them promise if they listened to me, I would listen to them. But I think of this young man, because now this man is. I think he's on death row, but he's in he's he's been incarcerated for a number of years in court when it was on the news.
And of course he, he basically says out loud, he said, I'm evil. I watched my, my father, right. My mother and my sisters. And so you think of that and you think of characteristics that helped shape us. This is what he saw. So when I speak of genogram and I hate to give that story because it sounds so awful, but it is the good and the bad that influenced what we become.
Yeah. So for me, I was able to go back and you go, well, you usually we say go back as far as your grandparents. And if you can go back a little further, if you have some memory of that, then do that. But we say, go back at least those two generations from parents to grandparents and identify who they are and what were the patterns.
So some went through and they saw it and they saw divorce was a significant pattern in their life. I recently, counseled a young couple thinking of getting married and I had them do that as an exercise. And one of the things that they both saw was they both came from homes of divorce or abandonment.
Tony: I always, I always make my premarital cup counseling couples do Gina grams because you physically have to draw it out. You draw out the relationships and then you connect the lines. To the idea. And so you were doing that where this couple what'd they see,
Pastor Mamie: it's funny because it's evoked a lot of emotion, especially I was surprised from the, the male part of that, that the potential or the fiance, because he, he re-upped, it in tears realized the environment that he grew up in, left him feeling alone.
And abandoned, which played out into his relationships. The reason that was important because now the woman he's thinking of marrying, she's aware that he has this, this void in his life. Can she feel it? No. I don't think any person can feel that nature or spirituality in us. We have to connect with the creator for that.
So, I think genograms are amazing when you list all the characteristics of the individuals that are, a part of your life. And then there's another part. And I don't think the geneogram addresses that necessarily, but in my book or I call that a study guide more than a book. One of the things I noticed is that the environment also plays a part of that.
As I looked at the individuals, I went back and said, okay, here are I am an African-American male, female. And, but my parents, I looked at them, they were born in the thirties, so they're going through the depression. Okay. And they lived in the South. Okay. So we know back then that African-Americans, if there were a job opportunities, usually the other Caucasian would get the job and African Americans would not.
So my parents then moved North. They're moving North in the fifties. This is when Emmett till is being killed. You've got racial rights. You got Vietnam war and were being raised with parents. And to go through the whole it's in the book. But if you do go through that whole sentence, Ariel of a mother who was abandoned, a father whose mother died at 13, taking on a child, taking one children, she didn't want to take care of.
And then a father then who suffers from alcoholism and a mother who has chronic illness. All of those things make up who I am. And as much as we try to escape it, and we can say that, Oh, that was the past. It has no hold on me. It really, really does. It influences our work environment and influences our families, the ones we try to start at and influences our interactions with others in the world.
Tony: No, I think that's, that's really important and I I'm interested because. Your genogram revealed quite a bit. And a lot of it is kind of the catalytic. I don't know if it was the catalyst for awakening for the book, but it certainly spawned a good section of the book. w what, what was the big aha moment for you as you looked at this, geneogram it, you know, you were supposed to be facilitating and all of a sudden, seemingly got hit with a ton of bricks.
What, what did you learn about yourself?
Pastor Mamie: What I learned was one, I'm a pretty tough cookie that's for sure. And I learned that I didn't have to succumb to all of that, but it was through very difficult times that it became a realization because when I looked back at it, here's the other thing I learned.
My parents actually did the best they could, you know, they, they, what, they didn't know, they didn't know. But I was often criticized or ostracized by my family because I want it to be different and because I kept pursuing being different. And so even when I would visit home, I would find myself shirking back with either conversation or anything, because I didn't want them to feel small, but the really aha moment if, if I were to look at that whole, understanding was.
There is a reason that I went through all of that. It really, it was the seed. It helped me to identify why I was feeling the way I was feeling because when I was having panic attacks, I never, I never told anyone. I never addressed it until this book. and I didn't tell anyone because it felt strange.
It's like, you know, there's nothing going on. Why are you. Freaking out. It really, for me, it was like death. It was, I felt like I was dying and I couldn't figure out why. And I would go lock myself in the restroom at work. Or if I'm in my car, I'm like looking around and I hit my son in the car one time to the point I actually thought of, of suicide.
And it was craziest thing. And. You know about visiting a friend. I went to her house instead of doing something catastrophic. And one of the things she said was why don't you have a cup of tea, tea will not resolve those kinds of things, but it woke me up for a moment. So you really don't like to talk about it, but then when you do, there's such a freedom.
And it, you know, there's an interesting thing too. I, I, young woman, Saturday sent me an instant message and said she brought the book, she read it. She said, first of all, I couldn't write you on Facebook because I was embarrassed. Oh, wow. Why should we be embarrassed? If we are experiencing difficulty or illness or unrest, we shouldn't feel guilty about that.
And so she sent me a private message. She read it, she went through it and really. You really shouldn't read it that fast. You should really ask the questions at the end of the chapter. Yeah. Like you said, it's
Tony: more, it really is more of a workbook than it is anything else.
Pastor Mamie: Right. And she said it, it opened up, it helped her understand some things about herself.
She did not realize. And to me, what that says is now she can walk toward her healing. Because another thing I say about the book is in the book, do not negate psychologists and psychiatrists, God gave them the gifts, use them. That's why they're there. They have much more, you know, they have more skills than we do as pastors, pastors.
We can speak to that spiritual nature and say, you know what? We get it. And when you get to a place where you're counseling someone and you know, when you're out of your league, when did bill, depending on the conversation and the behaviors, you're like, you know what? I can help you here, but you need a little more help.
They may need a pill. They need to take something to calm themselves down. And we, as, as leaders in the church, I am, I really feel like we need to talk about mental illness a lot more, because it's a, it's a free space because people come to your church. Because they're coming to hear you and they're coming to hear you because they believe you're hearing from God.
And if that's the case, think of the impact are leaders in our church leaders and pastors could have, if they openly said, you know what, I've suffered from anxiety. Here's what I did. I may not have suffered from depression, but I understand where you are here in the Bible. Let me tell you about Elijah's depression.
Let me tell you about Diana and her panic. Let me tell you about Tamar. I mean, let me tell you about these individuals, but now don't just wallow in misery. You don't have to stay there. You can keep moving, you know, Just go on and on. So I'm trying to back down.
Tony: No, that's good. Yeah, that's fire. I love it.
I mean, I guess one of the questions that I have is, seemingly more and more people are talking about their, their mental disorders or their emotional or psychological health. And yet it is still seen as one of these giant shameful. things w so two questions. The first one is why do you think people still look at it that way?
And then what do we have to do? As the church and not just pastors, but even the lady, like what do we have to do to lift the stigma around mental health? I think
Pastor Mamie: we need to talk about it more. One of the things I quote insight in there is in , which is national association for mental illness over 18 million people in the United States suffers from some form of mental illness.
Think of that 18 million people. I think awareness is key. Making people or helping people to understand you are not alone. And I think society has made it a stigma or labeled it negatively. When in fact it is a part of unfortunately 18 plus million people's human experience. So we make it a top or irrelevant or a subject that's relative to being human.
Because think of all the situations you face in life, and coming from a military environment, there has to be a level of anxiety at one point, you know, how do you get through it? So
Tony: for a whole year, I mean, for a whole year that we lived in a world of stress and anxiety, right. And, and, and it was everything just got turned up to a 10.
And then
Pastor Mamie: they plucked you back in society and say, okay, now get back into, get back to work, get back to real life. How do you do that?
Tony: Well, it almost cost me my marriage if I'm honest, right? Like, I mean, it was, I came back in such a bad place that there was nothing else in my life that could give me the adrenaline rush of being deployed.
And so I was trying, you know, like purpose and identity and all of that was mixed in and it wasn't until I got some really good counseling. And now I've been seeing the same psychologist for seven years. Every, every three to five weeks, whether I need to, or not. Right. I call it my checkup from the neck up.
Pastor Mamie: I like that. I'm gonna use it to steal it. Think about that. How often have you talked about that even in your congregation?
Tony: I mean, I'm fairly open about it and I'm probably not as, you know, it might be assumptive more than it is anything now, because I, you know how sometimes you feel like you've preached on the same thing.
I think if I tell my church, I'm crazy, one more time. They might.
Pastor Mamie: I, I think that, just bringing it more to the light, like when I actually said it out loud, lost some of its power. You know, and then here's the other part. Sometimes when you start talking about it, you start experiencing some of those symptoms. Again, I, to I say, you know, use the psychologist, use the psychiatrist.
I went to a psychologist for probably a year or two, and this was prior to my really, I call born and get experienced my real relationship with God, love God. I had been a church Gore. I had, you know, been in choir, been in all the different organizations, taught Sunday school, but I. New guy, but I didn't know that.
Tony: Tell me more about that. I want to hear more about that.
Pastor Mamie: My pastor used to say, you need to know that you know, that, you know, and I never used to understand what he is. He was saying. And recently, and I wrote something in one of my daily devotions about, there was a gentleman and Matthew chapter 17 who had a son who, would have, was, was being, ravished by this evil.
I'll say spirit and. He had gone to the dislike, Jesus, his disciples, and said, ask them to heal it and they couldn't do it. And so he went directly to Jesus and Jesus said, how many of you still know, how long do I have to dwell with you? And he spoke to the spirit. He came out of him and afterwards the disciples pulled him aside and said, why couldn't we do this?
He said he was telling them because they had so little faith. Here's the thing I got out of bed. And the Lord revealed that to me this week, he said, They had faith, but they didn't have faith in him. They had to know Christ and sometimes we have faith. We believe things will happen, but how much do we believe Jesus is the one that's doing it.
And at Pentecost, when he left, he said, I'm going to send you another comforter. So we have the power within us. How do we draw from that? And how do we allow that to rise up? So in my born again, experience what ended up happening. I was going to the counselor. I was going to a gastroenterologist because some of my anxiety resulted in acid reflux.
So there was physical symptoms associated with it
Tony: and that's usually the case.
Pastor Mamie: Oh yeah. And I was taking five, six, seven pills a day. I mean, and none of it worked, none of it. And I would go and I would be anxious. I would be sitting in the doctor's office, but then it was a new year's Eve in 1990. And I just felt like if I could just go to get up and go to church and I mean, I was sick.
I was in bed from July of 1990 to December of 1990. And I got to church because I hadn't been doing anything, go to work, come home, go to bed, lost weight. And it wasn't because it wasn't EDD. It wasn't because it was wasn't easy. It was stress. And I get to church and someone comes out of the choir, a friend blackhead lost connection with, and she said, are you okay?
And I remember saying, no, I'm not. And she said, but you will be. That right. There was a seed that was planted for that very moment. And again, I have that voice saying, just get to church and I didn't know what the church was going to do because I was a church girl. So I get to church. She says that service goals, I can't even tell you what the sermon was or whatever, but then the pastor at the end of new year's Eve service, he says anyone that wants to change their life or one.
God to come into their life, come to the altar, that altar call they have. And so I went under the guise of my girlfriend. I took her hand because she needed Jesus. I didn't need him. And when I got there, I allowed myself to be vulnerable and I just kept feeling this sense of you've got to let go. And the way I say it is I let go of her hand and I took God's hand that moment.
That I was born again, and it was that moment that my life changed forever. I went home from new year's Eve service. And I started reading healing scriptures. That's all I would read. I would just read through the scriptures, read
if someone actually gave me a book that says that and they have the index and the part was for healing. And I opened it up to the, I don't know how long I kept that book. I never looked at it, but I opened it up to that and just started reading through them and reading through bias stripes. You are healed, you know, those kinds of things.
Within a few weeks. I remember going back to the gastroenterologist and I'm sitting in his chair. He walks the end because I've been seeing him every other week or every week. And it was a Jewish, position and practicing. And I'm in his chair. I said, Oh, I'm sorry, I'm in your chair. And I was so calm.
I didn't realize how anxious that was. And it was so calm and he text me, he says, You're okay. And I said, yeah, I am. I'm like, why is he surprised? But I guess I didn't realize how bad I was. You know, the older preachers used to say a retro on them, the rich on gun. And he said, what happened? And I said, Jesus, he said, I have had patients with much less severe symptoms, issue orders, and I've never had this kind of response or healing in my entire practice.
And then they asked me what I come back and help others. I said, let me figure it out. First,
Tony: praise God,
Pastor Mamie: two weeks. I went back to the psychologist, you know, one time she had tried to hypnotize me. I said, I'm not that girl for me. But anyway, I'm sitting with her name was Susan. She said she wished she could follow me, but protocol based on their occupation, they can't become personal.
Relationship like that. And she's sitting, talking to me and it's funny how people can, other people can tell you have issues. You can't even tell. Sometimes you have an issue. She looked at me and she said, you don't need me anymore. And I thought I said, I actually don't. And we hug and embrace. She said, God, I wish we could be friends and follow you.
It's going to be something, whatever God's doing with you. And she wasn't a Christian counselor, I don't even know. And so that was, that was the turning point for me, the really, I believe without a shadow of a doubt that new year's Eve, that faith in God was, solidified.
Tony: Tell me about your anxiety today? Is it pretty much non-existent what, what, what are the disciplines that you do now to make sure that, you know, I I'm going to use this term to keep your monsters?
Pastor Mamie: Well, first of all, the reason I titled the book God's rescue, I don't like when you go swimming, you know, you can be a great swimmer.
But if you'd have, if that undertow, it will snap you in. And so when I call it a rescue for it's, it can happen again. Don't think just because, you know, one time your cure and you will never be anxious again. Many things, many things make us anxious. I have a schedule that is crazy. Sometimes the last two weeks have been unbelievable of trying to sort things out and get things done and meet deadlines and go to these meetings.
And I could feel myself because I think what happens is there's this connectivity with your mind, body spirit. And in that connectivity, you can tell when you're getting out of sorts, In writing this book and finishing this book, I felt anxiety coming back and I feel my heart racing and I could feel the pulse rate just going up.
And some of the things I do physically want, I try to walk five days a week, at least three miles, 15 miles a week. I do that religiously. the other things I do when I'm walking, I'm meditated. I'm either listening to a sermon or I'm praying, or just being quiet, because I want to hear what God is saying to me.
A gentleman at the gym today stopped me and we were talking, he was talking about what was going on with the election and all of that. and he said, I know you like to be quiet when you're walking, but he needed some spiritual guidance. At that moment. And so the things that helped me with my anxiety is the exercise is more reading.
My scriptures is being quiet before God. And sometimes, and in the last few months and getting this done, I remember waking up in the middle of the night saying, you know, like that whole panic, like w you know, and you know, nothing's going on. And I put my hand over my heart. And I just started praying and I go right back to sleep and I call that censoring myself realizing that.
And I think what I had to realize whether alive or dead I'm with Christ, because that's my relationship with him. And if I realize that then nothing can overtake me. That will frighten me to a point that I don't trust God. And I just trust him like that. And I, I know. I know God is no respecter of persons.
I know if everyone were to do that to really, really connect. With their whole self, you know, we've got says in John 10, 10 that he came, that we might have life and more. That's what I look at 'em and when I get those anxious moments, I'm like, this is an abundant life Lord, what do I need to do? And I'll pull away into my room.
I'm glad we have a big house, bigger house where one can go up.
Tony: Well, let me ask you this. Yep. One of the questions that I always love to ask people is how do you hear from God? Because I think oftentimes, and, and I've asked, I've asked almost every guest that I've had on, its had a word from the Lord. How do you hear God?
Because I think it's easy to confuse like the word of God with, you know, my own thoughts or even, you know, my Chipola is always my go-to example. Right? Like, you know, how, how do you know that? It's God, when God's talking to you.
Pastor Mamie: Okay. So the worst says, and we throw scripture out all the time, right? No, my voice and a stranger, they won't follow my whole fall experience.
I actually heard an audible voice. Okay.
Tony: Did it sound like Morgan Freeman?
Pastor Mamie: No. Who is that? field of dreams. What's his name?
Tony: Kevin. Oh, Earl Jones. James Earl Jones.
Pastor Mamie: Yeah. James. No. it really was, it was very, it's very nondescript. I was, it was fine. I like to be quiet because I hear that better when I'm quiet and that doesn't mean he's always audible. Sometimes it's inside. And then it also goes to when you've spent time with him in prayer, reading your scriptures, you know, attending services and all that, you begin to discern the voice of God very easily.
I can give you a number of situations where God has told me to do something and I've done it. And it's been miraculous. I'll give you an example in a second, but I know his voice because I've spent that time at, during that call I'm in my car, it's quiet. And I'm thinking, you know, nothing, I'm really thinking nothing.
And all of a sudden, this voice says I've called you to preach. And I'm like, what is that? You know, it's, it's just really weird and I'm thinking, Hmm. And it didn't say anything else. Who's quiet. And I believe it was God waiting for me to ask questions. I said, women don't preach. It was the first thing I say, because that's what I've been taught.
And the voice said nothing. And then I said, Well, I'm a member of this church and the pastor says, and he said, he's always said this, as long as I'm pastor this church, no woman. These are his words with Don, my pulpit. I didn't have a problem because it wasn't called a Friso. There was no issue. And it's an I, this is me having a conversation out loud.
I only, I said, okay. And I know, I believe God prompts us just to see where we are. And I finally said, okay, God, if this is you, then you change his mind. And I decided, I won't tell anybody that I have this strange who have believed in any way. They think it was crazy. And it was as if this spirit or whatever it was, it was got lift my car.
It was like, I could feel this presence, but it couldn't see it, but I knew it was there. So I get to church. I couldn't even tell you it was one eight. I can tell you all my Buffalo moments exactly where I was. And I remember getting the church and thinking, what was that? And it stayed with me. I didn't hear any more from the boys.
So whatever. Within six weeks, the pastor gets up and says, God has been dealing with me and I'm allowing women to accept their call to the ministry. But this was a pastor who had been there for 25 years, five years. And I'm thinking, Whoa, wait a minute. And I always says, you said, you'd come. And so how I know God's voice is because I've spent that time with them, but also I've seen it over time where he is, Encouraged me to do something and I know the voice and I do it.
And the responses confirm. So I'll give an example, a friend who was going through a divorce, we only talked every three or four months. We had just talked a week or two ago. So there was no reason for us to topic it cause she was very private and she is private and I'm sitting in the kitchen and washing dishes and I hit this ball.
The same voice says. Call so-and-so and here I am arguing again or talking back or whatever. And I say, well, I just talked to her. I'm not calling her again. And it wouldn't go away. I kept washing dishes and I kept refusing. Finally, I got upstairs and I was getting ready for bed and it was loud, like a bugle blowing in my ear.
You need to call and I pick up the phone. I said, this is crazy, but I'm going to do it. I pick up the phone I call and I said, I know we just talked, but this voice keeps telling me to call you. And she starts crying. She was having such a hard time. She was throwing up in the sink and she said, she, at that moment, she said, God, I need someone to talk to.
And the phone rang and it was neat. Those are the discerning moments I get. And that's how I know God's voice. And I know when he tells me things and members of our church will tell, they say they don't talk to me because I am discerning and it scares them.
that's one of my guests.
Tony: It's super interesting.
and, and a little funny, a buddy of mine just called me. He actually know him from United, maybe Rozario Picardo Oh,
Pastor Mamie: his wife is in my class this year.
Tony: Yeah. So, Roz. Roz called me the other day and he said, Tony, I was washing dishes and God told me to give you a message. And so he called me and, and shared that message with me.
It's, it's a private message. So like, but like, I what's clear to me is that God speaks to people when they're doing the dishes.
Pastor Mamie: Absolutely. I've just had many episodes like that. Just fighting, not wanting to come. To the preaching ministry, because I knew the rejection I was going to experience. And finally, with all of the.
So all of a sudden I was trying to convince myself, I didn't hear that. And I remember what my son was suffering from some sort of medical issue where his follicle and his hair growing infected. And he had this knot on his head, the size of a ping pong ball, and it wouldn't go away. We tried every antibiotic and finally the doctor called me and we'd become friends.
She said, maybe I've tried everything. There's one more drug I can try, but it's for tuberculin patients. And it has certain nasty side effects. As you say, you have to be home. And I was being, I was going to have to travel. I was working with, in corporate at the time. So I was traveling a lot and I remember saying, okay, just let him get the medicines, let him get the prescription.
I'll tell him to hold on until I get back. Long story short, I looked up and said, okay, Lord, I know you told me to do this and I'm just needing, I was Gideon. Okay. Please wet please. And I finally said, if this is really you. I need you to heal his head without, you know, the need for antibiotics he had had she tried draining and everything.
It was less than four or five days. I call, I let him know I'm in Cleveland. At that point, my son says, you know, I said, did you go to the doctor? He says, yes. And I said, well, did she give you ride? And he said, no, because he doesn't know, my children don't know this story to this day. Nobody knows this story.
And I said, Well, what about your scout? What happened? What are you going to do? He said, mom, it's healed. I said, what do you mean to seal? Because the pediatrician thought, you know, the hair won't grow back. We'll surgically, pull the scalps, make sure it doesn't show. He said his Hill. He hasn't had a problem with it since
Tony: will he do it?
Pastor Mamie: Won't he do it?
You know, knowing that God can heal anything and he can rescue us from anything. He knows we're going to go through part times. He knows. They're going to be things that try to snuck the total life out of us. But what he's saying is I've overcome the world. There are things I can do that the world can never do.
Tony: Yeah. It's interesting to me, I love the testimony of your faith and one of the things that has really. As, as I hear you talking about this, I'm like, man, what an incredible witness. Right. and yet, like there's part of this where you're, you're an African-American female in, in a predominantly male world, a white male world that, you know, in the midst of, of one of the biggest, you know, Racially tentious times of my lifetime, at least.
And you're writing on a topic that most people don't want to talk about. Right. So, I mean, like I'm thinking to myself, could you pick a harder path lean in, how do you lean into the discomfort, in these kinds of moments, because it's, I just, I can't imagine that it's easy.
Pastor Mamie: You know, God get, Oh, I can tell you exactly what he's telling me.
Why. I remember praying not too long ago that God gave me his heart and I know that's why I'm able to do it. I really now I'm getting to, okay. God really cares about people and, and giving me his heart. I care about people. I don't care your position or your social economic class, or I don't care about that.
What I care about that you're okay. And he's allowed me to influence or have influenced or speak into the lives of from business professionals, athletes. I mean, all of these individuals and they don't see my color, they see someone who loves God and is intentional in her. actions and in our attitude about it, you know, I don't see myself as that African-American female, unless someone points it out.
Usually when someone engages me and engages me in a conversation, spirituality, color disappears. I think I know they see me and the conversation I had this morning, this guy is up two or three time, super bowl winner with rings and all of that stuff. When we're talking, he's not bad. He's a person that's asking questions and trying to understand.
And so, being able to love people like Jesus loves them. Like God loves us. That's what gets me through all of that. And it's kind of like, and if they don't hear you shake the dust from under your feet, you have to keep moving, you know, and everybody's not going to listen to me. You know, you're going to reach people.
I can't, I'm going to reach people. You can't, but the whole goal is are we leading them to Christ?
Tony: I love the way you say that. Love people, the way Jesus loved them. There's probably somebody listening right now. And as a matter of fact, I know that there is who feels like they're really far away from that.
What's the first piece of what's the first step in a thousand steps to love people. The way Jesus loved them.
Pastor Mamie: First step is see your own, your own. Sinfulness, inability to do anything without the power of God. See that you're weak. That, that, that, that your strength you are, his strength is made perfect in our weakness, except the weakness, except that you know that without him, there's nothing we can do.
Tony: That makes perfect sense. And it matches what Jesus preached. Right? First message. Out of the first message Jesus comes out of the wilderness. What's the first thing he say, repent and believe, repent and believe. Right? Humble yourself before me and believe. that's beautiful. That's beautiful. Tell me what a year from now.
What are we celebrating about this workbook and how God used it?
Pastor Mamie: A year from now. I like to believe that people will come, we'll stop hiding that there will be a harvest of people that say, you know what. I'm no longer hiding behind societal doors that says I can't be who I am. I'm going to be who God made me to be all of the vulnerabilities, the warts and whatever, but I'm going to live a full life.
And so what that looks like to me is that we're going to have more individuals seeking price. More individuals in our church that are willing to work more individuals in the workforce because my ministry is a non-for-profit business. and so I'd like to be able to see more people in the workplace, acknowledging that.
I have to work as if I'm working for the Lord and knowing that, then I can be whoever I am knowing that God will continue to continue to mold me into the person that I'm supposed to be. And so I would hope that a year from now in our churches, we will have people stand up and say, I too suffered from that.
Let's get together. Let's talk about it or going and facilitating and giving guidance to those who. Maybe still reluctant to talk about it, to begin to have dialogue. I remember going to Poland, my last year of graduate school and we went there to bridge Jewish Christian relations post-Holocaust and it was a priest that was compelled to do this because during the Holocaust, they were, it was said that the Catholic church could have helped a lot more.
Then they did by, you know, hiding some of the individuals that were killed. And so the relations in Poland were so, so, so bad that the Jewish individually people there would not identify themselves, they would fit in because they were afraid of what would happen again. So his, Oh, was. To bridge that. And the reason he, he did it, that we invited just two schools from different countries.
Xavier was a university, was one of the schools that was invited to that. And we listened to various, thesis about it. But the bottom line became for him. It was how let's have dialogue. And I think that's the key a year from now. I'd like to see more dialogue about these. Issues, because think about it, Tony at the pastor, Tony, think about it.
The shootings in the schools, the shootings in the workplace, all this stuff that's going on. That maybe when, when I grew up, I didn't hear a lot about shooting in school. I didn't read any of that. I would like to think that. You know, we can bring that back into the environment. I think there should still be prayer in school.
I think there should be something that, and make it voluntary, make it so that you don't have to go. But for those of you who are Christian and you want to be a part of this, come participate in this. So I'd like to see it open up and. In fact invite people like myself who are willing to talk about it and say, yes, I've experienced that.
It's kind of like, I go back to Brene Brown. When she talked about vulnerability, she thought her power was in knowing and not acting as if there was something she didn't know I'm paraphrasing and summarizing it in my understanding. And what she's saying is no. When you pull back the veil. When you take down the wall, there is your power.
I referenced Robin Roberts. She always says her mother used to say to her that the newscaster and on ABC world news, I think it is, she said her mother used to say, make your mess your message. And for me, panic, anxiety, depression. That's my mess. And so I have a message and I didn't even know, you know, that was.
I was going to even use it, but those are the people that as I was writing, God revealed to me so that you can bridge society and your spiritual world and you see how they intertwined. And I just think that there is such an, when you think of 18 plus million people,
Tony: that's incredible.
Pastor Mamie: It's amazing. And then think of the children that are born in those families of those 18 million
Tony: people.
It's scary,
Pastor Mamie: extremely, extremely
Tony: scary. I know my listeners are going to want to follow you and to keep up with all that God is doing in your ministry, where can they get a copy of the book and where can they, what's the best place to connect with you on the interwebs?
Pastor Mamie: Okay. So to get a copy of the book, you can go to amazon.com.
I've been caught in the undertow. Or, God's rescue from anxiety, depression, and panic is, is what it will say. Or if you just type in my name, Mamie Johnson, you'll see several books that I have out there. I like this one, the best, always your last one. You like the best because you learn some things along the way.
so going to amazon.com is one way. You can go to my website and Mamie Johnson, ministries.org. And in fact, my w the front page, my home page, you can purchase the book right from there. It'll take you directly to Amazon. Yeah. Or, and to contact me, you can go to Mamie Johnson ministries@gmail.com. And, send me a message.
If you'd like to have more discussion or you want me to come in and speak to your groups, organizations or whatever, you can go there. So on Facebook. Yeah.
Tony: And you're also really active on Instagram. You're you, you got, you got some new things happening over there on the gram, and I love it.
Pastor Mamie: Yeah, I'm still working on it.
Tony: Love it. Okay. The last question I always love to ask people is an advice question. And so I want to take you back to a very specific moment in your life. I want to take you back to January 1st, 1990, right? So you had your born again, experience. If you could go back in that moment and talk to the younger version of yourself, what's the one piece of advice you would give.
Okay.
Pastor Mamie: So it was December, 1990. So it was January 1st, 1991
Tony: 91. Right. I forgot the Roundup, right.
Pastor Mamie: Say to my younger self is for, was you really didn't have to worry about all of the things you experienced. I was always with God was always with you. And the reason you've gone through so much, because I have asked the question lately, why did I go through so much.
And God answered me. And he said, because I knew you could handle it. The interesting thing is this, I think going through some of the situations that I went through, some of the heartaches and I hardly touch on it in that book, you have no idea. I think it made me more compassionate to people that struggle and that suffer because sometimes we are, you know, it's like walking in someone else's shoes.
When you walk in someone else's shoes, you began to understand them a whole lot better. You begin to understand, the pitfalls and, or, the things that may seek to snuff out their life. So I would tell my younger self it's going to be okay, you're going to get through this. And they're going to be so many people that are going to benefit from the heartache and the pain that you've experienced in your life.
That's what I will tell her.
Tony: Praise God, praise God. That's awesome.
Pastor Mamie: I love the Lord
Tony: pastor. Thank you so much for being so generous with your time today. I know that you've blessed. So many of our listeners. I deeply appreciate you.
Pastor Mamie: You know, pastor Tony. I know we just met, but I tell you, I felt like I had this connection with you.
I thank you for allowing me to speak to your followers and. for me to be able to share my love for God and my love for God's people. And so I feel like I have another brother.
Tony: Amen. Amen. What an incredible conversation with Mamie. I think that she's got such a voice for us in a season like this. I really appreciated the way she talked about her anxiety, her depression, or panic, and how she fought back against that.
I also think that there's this season right now that all of us find ourselves in to lean into the supernatural part of who God is. So I hope you found this conversation uplifting. I hope you found it, encouraging as we head into 2021. I know God is going to do some amazing things. Thank you again for being a part of the reclamation community.
I know that there's no way that I could do this without you. So thank you for listening. Thank you for downloading. Thank you for sharing the episode everywhere that you share it. And for leaving the ratings and review, it does mean the absolute world. To me. Hope you guys have a great week and I look forward to connecting you guys next week.
Best way to make sure you don't miss an episode, hit that subscribe button. So you guys real soon.
