#131: Dr. Timothy Elmore: The Eight Paradoxes of Great Leadership
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In today's conversation, Tony sits down with leadership expert Dr. Timothy Elmore. In his latest resource, Tim explores the paradoxes of leadership in today's climate and how important it is in the landscape of the world.
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EP. 131
Tony: [00:00:00] Hey everybody. Welcome back to the Reclamation Podcast, where our goal is to help you reclaim good practices for faith and life. I'm Tony. And today is episode 131 of the podcast where I sit down with leadership expert, Tim Elmore, Dr. Tim Omar wrote the book eight paradoxes of leadership after doing 20 plus years with John Mack.
We have a great conversation today about what and how important a paradox is for your leadership. We talk about faith. We talk about ETQ versus IQ. We talk about how all of these things come together to form the secret sauce of leadership. I know you're going to love this dialogue with Tim and Hey, if you do love it, do me a favor.
Hit that subscribe button, wherever you listen to podcasts, leave a rating or review on iTunes and be sure to share this episode with. Sharing is the best way to get the word out about what God is doing on and [00:01:00] through this platform. Now, guys, if you haven't heard I've fully made the jump over to spirit in truth.
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The March conference is March 17th through the 19th here in Dayton, Ohio. I'll be there other incredible speakers like Marian Hayes, Kevin Watson, Rob Omer, [00:02:00] Matt Reynolds, and so many. We're excited to connect with you. And I think it's going to be a great event. Come visit us in person. Can't wait to see you guys now without any further ado.
Here's my conversation with Dr. Tim Elmore. Hey everybody. Welcome back to the podcast. I'm so excited today to have a speaker, author and leadership expert, Dr. Tim Elmore, Tim, thank you so much for being here today, Tony.
Tim: It is an honor to be with you looking forward to a conference.
Tony: So I did a little research and found out that this idea was born out of a greenroom experience.
And I'm wondering if you might tell us a bit about that impromptu think tank that kind of shaped the writing of this recent.
Tim: Yeah, it was a green room. This was a few years ago. I sat in a green room before a conference. There were 16 of us CEOs sitting back there before the event different industries, male and female old and young.
So I [00:03:00] decided to turn it into an instant focus group. So I threw out the question to everybody. Do you all think leading today is more difficult than it was. Then when you first learned to lead and I kind of assumed I'd get a little, both, but everybody to the person Tony said, absolutely. Somebody said 110%.
I mean, they're waving flags, you know, and take a note, no prison. So I, I kind of volley back and I said, now that's kinda strange that we all feel this. One would think it would be harder back when you were younger and didn't know as much about leadership, but every single person stuck to their guns and said it is harder right now.
So that sent me on a hunt. I began to research, I lead an organization, myself growing leaders, but I just began to interview folks from different companies and organizations and, and I began to come up with what. Book is about eight paradoxes that I think that the, the w [00:04:00] the successful, that's not a good word.
The effective leaders today are just practicing what seems like ironic oxymoronic, paradoxical leadership, where they're juggling two balls that should not go together. But in fact, it's what helps them really, really win. So that's what the book is.
Tony: So what's interesting is that you started this journey multiple years ago and here you are releasing it and what some people would call the most tentious or, you know, a time in, in leaders, leadership.
What, how do you think, how do you think that this book is, is kind of I would say ordain for such a time as this.
Tim: Well I always am trying to be careful not to overestimate the importance of anything I write, but I ended up meeting with John Maxwell, Andy Stanley others that they all said, oh wow, you're onto something here.
I don't know if I tripped into it, accidentally stumbled into it. But here's what I know, Tony, if you look at the landscape of our nation today, much less the world the [00:05:00] team members coming into our organizations are more educated than they've ever been. So you probably have a few more armchair quarterbacks that think they knew what to do, maybe better than you do bad, but just they're, they're more they're more emotional.
And I say this not in a Insulting sort of way. But I remember when I began my career, the typical supervisor's mantra was leave your personal problems at the door. Let's get the worker today. It's bring your whole self to work and that's awesome. But their whole self might be emotional. Some baggage.
Let's be honest. We, and we care about that. We care about the whole person, but so there's that there that they bring a greater sense of entitlement, Hampshire university did a study and found out that people coming into the workplace today are just feeling entitled to perks and breaks that we didn't 10 or 28 years ago.
So anyway, all of that to say the team member we're leading. Expects more from us. [00:06:00] And so last year, fortune magazine released a feature article called the great CEO, Exodus of 20, 20 dozens and dozens and dozens of leaders just said, I can't, I can't do this anymore. And I bet you have some listeners right now that go, I F I felt that way, you know, over the last 12, 18 months.
So that's what this book is attempting to address. How can we shift? So we don't have to step back. We can actually step up and lead the way we should.
Tony: So S so talk to me a little about leaving, and this is a little bit personal guy recently stepped out of my leadership role at the church to take on another leadership role for kind of a broader thing.
Do you feel like, and I think I've read this in the book, is that this kind of growth accelerator of COVID is this, is this kind of pushed us all to a place that we eventually wanted to get to anyway, or did it push us in a place that we never really want to do?
Tim: Probably a little of both.
Tony: If you have a little bit of column B, right?
Tim: That's right. That's right. Well I have come to believe [00:07:00] that 2020 was the great Excel. Whatever was already happening, slowly evolving. It just accelerated. So think about this didn't we all say, yeah, we need to do technology better. Well, suddenly we had to do technology, better schools, churches. Didn't we say we ought to do diversity equity and inclusion better.
Well, suddenly we had to do diversity equity in the protest. One thing after another, the stores that were kind of slowly going out of business because they were only brick and mortar and not digital. We're not fast, but then you've got Amazon and other companies sped them up. So I think many leaders listening right now may say, yep, we got sped up in what was already beginning to happen.
And that just wore me out. You know, I think there's leaders that are just exhausted and maybe, maybe leaning on the Lord more than ever right now. And we should, maybe this is a good thing through us to our needs. But I also believe it ought to make us lead more wisely. We need to be wise as serpents and generalist devs as [00:08:00] we, as we lead in.
Tony: If there's a leader out there that's listening. And I suspect there is that that's feeling a little overworked. It's feeling like there's no it just weariness it's, it's even more than tired. It's like in the bones, you know? How do we, how do we lean into leadership principles that help us.
Get some of our energy and excitement and enthusiasm back.
Tim: Yeah. That's a great question. And one that deserves way more than just two or three minutes, but I'll do my best to not do injustice to that question. Tony, one of the paradoxes in the book, in fact, it's the last one in the book. I believe uncommon leaders are both timely and timeless.
So, what they bring to the table is they are looking forward on the horizon and they're cutting edge and their innovation, their ideas, maybe even the use of, of digital technology. But at the same time, we dare not leave those timeless values. You and I would believe [00:09:00] biblical values, make us who we are.
And I think in today we live in an either or world right now, we are so polarized as ridiculous. And some of that polarization. Well think about the two words we hear in politics, progressives and conservatives. Let's pick those apart for just a minute. Progressive is a word taken from the word progress.
These are the people that say we gotta make progress. And I agree conservative is taken from the word conserve those people. We don't want to let go, or we want to conserve what we were built upon the heritage. And I bet you listeners would say, yup, I want both, I want to make progress. And I don't want to leave behind those timeless disciplines, virtues and values.
So that's the hard thing. How do you be both timely and timeless? Well, my case study on this one, Tony, I have a case study on each of these eight paradoxes. My case study on this one was Walden. Oh, wow. Not necessarily personal, but here was a guy. Would you not agree? This guy was on the cutting edge of animatronics and [00:10:00] digital technology.
And you know, you go to Disney world or Disneyland, it's the latest, but yet he's often telling stories of the heritage of our country and the virtues of Abe Lincoln and you know, this, that, and the other. And so you go to Disneyland. On the left-hand side, you've got frontier land, adventure land. That's all about yesterday.
Then you got tomorrow land that's all about tomorrow. So I really. That the best leaders, including our savior, Jesus was timely. And tonight I'm going to lead you into a new world, but I'm going to make sure we hold onto those things that made us people of faith from the very beginning. Yeah, no,
Tony: I, I, I love that.
And I think you're probably reading a lot of people's mail right now where they're like, oh yes, I want to be timely in timeless. And I want to live in those paradoxes. And yet at the, at the same time, And we're asking them to lead a generation that had a completely different experience growing up than they did.
How do we become, oh, you know, what's kind of the [00:11:00] first step into saying, I want to be a paradoxical leader and not just a. I mean, I, I was cut my teeth in leadership in the army. And so I believe in a chain of command and Hey, I'll tell you how to feel, shut up and color all those things that we can't say now, or don't, don't feel as pertinent.
How do we become that paradox? A leader that is, is both timeless and timely and, and all the other traits that you kind of point out in the, in the book, what's the first kind of status.
Tim: That's a great question. Two things come to my mind immediately. One is we need to hop on a swing set. Now this is a metaphor.
You know, when you put your little son or daughter on a swing set, the first thing they say is swing me higher daddy, swing, be higher, you know, and you know, intuitively that just swing them forward higher. You've got to swing them backwards. Mm, you know, swinging backwards, swinging for, I think every organization, every leader needs to say, let's hop on a swing set.
Let's go backward. What did we build this [00:12:00] organization on? In the very beginning? What were our values? What problem are we trying to solve? What was the landscape then? And then swing forward. What's the new problems today? How can we retain our mission by addressing those maybe new issues, but in the same missional sort of.
So that would be one hop on a swing set. And in the book I talk about, you know, questions for the swing set. But then the second thing I would, I would suggest, and this is a very doable assignment for any listener practice, reverse mentoring. Now reverse mentoring is actually something that's been around for about 30, almost 30 years.
Jack Welch introduced the term for GE way back in the early nineties. If you remember, the early nineties, computers were new, relatively new to the workaday world. And so Jack Welch was the CEO of general electric. He had a bunch of, I don't know, 58, 59 year old executives that were not at home with. They wanted to do things the [00:13:00] old way they've been doing it all their life.
Sure. But then he had these new MIT grads that totally got the computer they've been, you know, using them in college. So he put this seasoned veteran with this rookie together in a mentoring relationship, but not just for the old to mentor. It was both. So the veteran would say, well, let me tell you how this organism organization works.
You'll benefit from knowing what I have to share, but then the rookie player gets to share here's here's how technology works today. We might go, how can I use this latest app to market our company or what. So I really believe I've done this now with some of our young team members. It's so fun to swap stories with a 20 something and a Mia 60 something and, and see value added.
As we see the overlap of our stories and they're sharing stuff that I learned and I'm sharing stuff that they learned that keeps me timely and timeless as I move.
Tony: [00:14:00] D do you think that this needs to be super intentional? Do you think it needs to be, do you need to put parameters around it? I mean, we talk all the time in disciple-making about how it needs to be intentional, relational, reproducible.
W what does that look like in the secular workplace reverse mentoring, or if you're, you know, you're middle management somewhere, and you're an accountant that works for the government, like. How do we, how do we get into reverse mentoring? If, if really we don't, we don't really have a, a huge leadership platform yet.
Tim: Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. Then I think you need to look outside your organization. Maybe not optimal, but you know who in my life is my nephew or my son or daughter or whatever, you know, that sort of thing. But I tell you, I, I really believe that the key is it's one of the paradoxes. Again, one of the paradoxes is I believe uncommon leaders are both stubborn and opening up.
Those two don't seem like they would go together. Do they? I mean, [00:15:00] either you're the one or the other, you say, man, I got stubborn or wow. He's shy. She's so open-minded but my, my illustration or my case study on that one was true. You know, the founder of yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So when I interviewed executive after executive ad, you know, the president and Dan Cathy has son they all said, yep, true.
It was stubborn. And open-minded Dan preferred the term. Oh, strong-willed and open-minded, that was a little more respectable, but it's still stubborn. So his story is so remarkable. He had one restaurant for 10 years. Not 1,001. And he was tweaking the recipe, not only for his chicken, but for his values.
What am I calling? You know, principles that I built this thing on and you and I both know they got core principles. You walk into Chick-fil-A, first of all, you're not going to walk into Chick-fil-A on Sunday. That's one of the principals we're closed on Sunday. Another one is you're going to hear the words.
It's my pleasure. You know, from 16 year olds or six year olds, you know a set of core [00:16:00] values. So he was stubborn on his values and his people. Those were the two things what was core. And then, and then his people, oh my gosh. I got to tell you a story. Tony. One of the stories that Dan, Kathy, his son told me, he said, Tim, I was working for my dad as a teenager at the original dwarf house restaurant.
And my dad told me to get up on a ladder and climb up onto the roof of the restaurant. Because he heard some noises up there. Hmm. Well, Dan said, I, I climbed up on the ladder and I looked up top and he said on top of that restaurant were a whole bunch of beer cans. Charlie was the night manager and he was an alcoholic and he would go outside at night and chugged down a six pack and just throw the beer cans up on the roof, thinking nobody would notice, oh, wow.
Let's do it. Notice Dan told me, as I climbed down the ladder that day, I thought to myself, there goes, Charlie, [00:17:00] you know, he's outta here, you know, but instead Dan said, I watched my dad go in and approach. Hence, they, Charlie, let's go to AA together. Wow. And he walked him through the journey. And Charlie spent the rest of his career there night manager, but the point was, you would've thought well with this value, C would have given up on that guy.
No people are a priority for me, so true. It always, if you walk into Chick-fil-A headquarters and you asked to see Truett, Cathy, they take him out of an important meeting, so he could go shake your head. And I thought that is a guy that knows where he stands right around. Yeah. He knows where he stands. So I just love the people I got to study in this book and write about.
And I really think the key is we've got to be not either, or, but we got to be paradoxical.
Tony: I love the way that you talk about these case studies and obviously your investment in them. I'm curious. [00:18:00] Which one of the paradoxes was the biggest challenge for you personally? Like how did it impact your life now?
Tim: You're going to Midland stepping on toes. I definitely have one for sure. It's the first one in the book and it just it's number one, because it's the one I needed. Have you ever noticed you speak to a right to your own needs? Sometimes. Do that's all I do
Tony: when I preach about my own fault.
Tim: So the paradox is this, I believe uncommon leaders are both confident and. And again, those seem like you get either or, you know, you either a very confident person or you're very humble person, but think about it. If you have a leader that's only confident you start wondering, are you smoking something, you know, you can't be that good.
You, you know, you don't know every answer here, you know, you're a human tooth, but if you have only humility, Nokia, I don't think anybody's got, they're going to go. I love your humility, but [00:19:00] are we even going to get to the goal? You know? So when you combine them together, it's this brilliant picture. We'll I'll I'll, I'll put it in a nutshell.
My confidence makes my leadership believable. People need a confident leader, but my humility makes my confidence belief. I I see that people see that I'm human and I'm authentic and I'm not going to make stuff up when I don't know. So my, my case study on this one, Tony was Baba. The recently retired CEO of Disney, Bob Iger, when he took over Disney from Michael Eisner, did not know he'd never led an enterprise like Disney.
He'd never let a company that sold plush toys, animated movies, theme, park, tickets, clothes, you know, they sell everything. And so he said, when I took over, I had to listen to the very people I was leading that was humility, but he said I could not let my. Humility [00:20:00] stopped me from leading. So I had to turn around and say, all right, here's what we're doing.
You know? And it's like, wait, I just told, you know, so I, I S I was so encouraged and ma may I say blessed by reading his story? Because I saw kingdom values in what he was saying, and by the way, here's another piece of that story that was just leapt off the pages. Bob Iger replaced Michael. Who by the way, had gotten kicked off of the staff of Disney as the CEO, the board said he was too arrogant, too cocky, too ego driven, not a good thing to have said about you.
And my question was actually a good leader, but he was too much of the confident thing. Michael Eisner had been in dialogue with Steve jobs to try to purchase. But it was two egos, just butting heads all the time. You can imagine both really, really strong people. So Bob Iger comes in, he let some months pass where he's just [00:21:00] getting acquainted with his team, but then he contacts Steve jobs.
And he basically says this, Steve, I don't think you know me. I'm Bob Iger. I'm the new CEO of Disney. He said I believe Pixar's amazing. I think Disney is amazing. I just can't help. But this, he said, this may be a crazy idea, but I just can't help. But think we might be better together. Well, Steve jobs says that's not a crazy idea.
So notice he's leaning in now, not leading. That's not a crazy idea. So they start talking pretty soon. They're meeting together. Next thing you know, Disney buys Pixar. Wow. But here's what I love about it. Here's the confidence and humility Disney buys Pixar. And then Bob Iger, CEO of Disney puts Pixar in charge of all the Disney animation, that area who does this sort of thing, a confident and humble.
And that's where we got to balance it, by the way, one more. I know I'm monopolizing this conference.
Tony: [00:22:00] It's good that they're here. Everyone's here to listen to you. Not me.
Tim: I've got to think it isn't Jesus. These paradoxical leadership principles. Yeah, he was very confident. He set his face like Flint toward Jerusalem.
I'm getting there, but humble. He even said I'm meek and humble of heart. All through these eight paradox, I thought, oh my gosh, there's the greatest leader in the world modeling this. And we missed it in the gospels because we're not looking for it. Maybe. I don't know.
Tony: But, well, I think we often look to Jesus as this servant leader and not one that it's easy to put into, into the commercial world that we live in today.
But yet I think in these paradoxes, what you see is that. I mean almost, you know, almost the, the be attitudes, right? Yeah. I mean, you just, you know, it just kind of plays itself out pretty well. I did want to ask this. You know, the, you told the story about Michael Eisner and I can identify with that.
There have been seasons in my life where I'm very [00:23:00] stubborn or arrogant or, or both. And I guess the question is, is how do I know if we think about the paradoxes is like a teeter-totter how do I know when I've let one side of the Teeter teeter-totter go up too far in and how do I pull it back down?
Tim: Yeah, that's a great question. And that's exactly what it is. It's a, teeter-totter where at 10:00 AM they meet may need you to be confident and 3:00 PM. They need you to be humble and you got to read them before you leave them. So that's answer number one. I've got to read my people before I lead my people.
Don't just have this Curt answer. You know, I'm this, you know, this answer person all the time. So here's the exercise, Tony that I'm practicing even now, because this is the one I got to work on myself. When I'm in a meeting, I will speak as if I believe I'm right, but I will listen as if I believe I'm wrong.
That exercise alone transforms my posture. So I should be confident. They need me as [00:24:00] the founder of this organization because it, but if I'm listening to the intern, As if they might have something to say and insurance going, oh my gosh, I feel valuable here. Well, that's exactly what I want. So I, I try to end each chapter.
Well, I don't try. I end each chapter with some practical steps that people can take. If that's a paradox that they're feeling weaken, that they might be able to take some real practical action steps to get better.
Tony: I'm curious over the years and you've been doing leadership stuff for a really long time.
You spent 20 years with John Maxwell and he was gracious enough to write the preface for this book and beautifully written. I I'm curious, like how much did having guys like John and some of the other leaders that you're surrounded with pour into you, shape the paradoxes as you see them today. W what's the influence of leaders fast have on.
Tim: Oh, tremendous. I mean, I, [00:25:00] I was just with John hugged him. I have tears in my eyes and I say, there is no way I can pay you back. So clearly I know you believe in discipleship mentoring, you know, bullet one life pouring into another John practice, something that I have tried to practice more time with less people equals greater kingdom of.
More time with less people equals greater kingdom impact. So I was one of three or four, maybe that John just really poured into I'm talking about 1983. So this was a long time ago, right out of college.
Tony: And you're no spring chicken in 41.
Tim: That's right. I'm totally kidding. Yeah. So I, I really, really benefited from really, it was on the job training. You know, I was working with him leading a department at first and then two and then three, but John really discipled and mentored me as we went along, I watched him, I didn't have to unlearn [00:26:00] a lot of bad leadership principles because I got good ones.
I watched a strong leader. So that was, that was no doubt. That was great. My mom and dad were great. They, you know, parenting is ultimate discipleship and I they're both passed away, but, and I miss them to this day, but they were both amazing. And then I had somebody named Sean Mitchell when I was in high school.
Just take me under his wing and pour into me and teach me to communicate. I look back and I say to myself, if I don't do a good job, it's my own fault because yeah, that's so good.
Tony: That's so good. Tim, I know that my listeners love to pray and they love to pray for the people that are on the podcast and for what they're working on.
As you send this book out into the wild what's a prayer request that we can be praying with you and for you as, as this starts to hit the shelves here in early.
Tim: Yeah, thank you for asking Tony you're. So kind of. Well, one, I want it to resignate I know there's people that are in ministry, [00:27:00] backgrounds, business backgrounds, nonprofit, athletics, whatever.
I really do pray that people can pull what's relevant to them. So that's one that, that somehow my w I don't know the person reading it, but I I'm, I'm hoping they feel like I'm speaking right to them, but I have a bigger one. This is not public. But w I and we at growing leaders have just begun discussions with the John Maxwell leadership foundation to merge together.
And wow. So John is being asked all over the world now by presidents and prime ministers to come and train every circle of influence education, business, healthcare. And John has said to me, I'm never, I've never been a next gen guy. You're the next gen guy, you know? So we're in due diligence right now, just processing.
Is this the right move? But I have a feeling it's going to really be a wonderful win-win and I'm. To have my longtime mentor even think that a, I might be able [00:28:00] to add value. So I'd love for people to pray that, you know, the right thing happens and and that we don't force anything, but just really falls together.
And that a marriage between these organizations could just benefit the world and a great.
Tony: I love that. And that's, that's an easy prayer request. Cause we're all gonna benefit, I think, from something like that. So I have one more question for you, but before I ask it, I know that my listeners are going to want to connect to you all over the interwebs.
Where is the best place to learn more about you growing leaders and to pick up their copy of the book?
Tim: Yeah. I'm going to give two sites, not one. I know that's against the rules, but it's . Okay, that's good. So growing leaders.com is the nonprofit that I lead and really it does target the emerging generation.
We teach leadership with images but then Tim elmore.com is the site where you can get the book discounted and with a whole bunch of, if they pre-ordered, there's a whole bunch of extra. [00:29:00] Freebies like a, a 10 video course, that's free that you get with a book to watch and discuss with the team.
So Tim mumord.com and growing leaders.com would be the, would be the sites.
Tony: Awesome. Awesome. Okay. Last question. I always love to ask people. It's an advice question, and I'm going to ask you to give yourself one particular piece of advice, except I get to take you to a very specific time in your life.
And what I'd like to do is I'd like to take you back to the end of your very first day. With John, the John Maxwell group, your, your very first day on staff working for John Maxwell. If you could go back and talk to that younger version of Tim, what's the one piece of advice you're giving them?
Tim: Oh my goodness.
Well, there's actually a thousand things I would say, as you can imagine, but I think the top of the list would be 10. Learn to lead yourself first. I know that's being said by others and I believe it. I agree with it, but here's why that was crucial for me. You can imagine getting hired [00:30:00] by John. I was immediately thrust onto a large stage, a large platform, literally.
And I was, you know, right out of college. So there I was in front of these crowds of people and of course, Do a good job, but you also want to look right. Sound right. Smell. Right. You know, and I, when I look back, I didn't make any major mistakes, but I made mistakes and most of them were, I was so consumed with how I looked or came across, as opposed to saying, let me make sure I'm leading myself first so that I've earned the right to leave.
Other people. Oh my gosh. Thankfully I didn't do anything that was horrific, but boy, that would be the advice I would give.
Tony: Yeah. Wow. That's really good, Tim. Thank you so much for your time today for your generosity, for this resource and for pouring into two young leaders, I'm just praying that God does some amazing things through this and just really appreciate.
Tim: Tony, I'm honored to be with you today. Great [00:31:00] to talk.
Tony: Thanks for what a great conversation I love, the way he connects the paradoxes to the beatitudes. I love the growth accelerator of COVID and how he kind of helped think through that. I think he think he really helped me get some handles around the tension that we live in today with these paradoxes in leadership.
I hope he did the same for you also. Don't forget to hit that subscribe button, wherever you listen to podcast. Leave a rating or review on iTunes and be sure to share this episode with a friend. I appreciate all that you guys do to help support this network. And I can't wait to see you guys in March, March 17th, through the 19th day, no Ohio at the spirit and truth conference.
Remember guys, if you want to follow Jesus, you must be willing to move.
