#136: Tom Ziglar: Leadership Virtues for Disruptive Times
We all know the times are changing, but do we know what to do with them once we've realized everything has changed? In today's conversation I sit down with leadership coach Tom Ziglar (son to the legendary Zig Ziglar) and we talk about what it means to shift with the world that already looks different.
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EP. 136
Tony: [00:00:00] Hey everybody. Welcome back to the reclamation podcast, where our goal is to help you reclaim good practices for faith and life. I'm Tony. And today is episode 1 36 of the podcast. Where I sit down with Tom Ziglar. Now that may name may sound familiar to you because Tom Ziglar is the son to the legendary.
One of the most influential motivators in the world, probably in history, Zig Ziglar, Tom and I talk about his latest resort, 10 leadership virtues for disruptive times. We talk about what it means to lead in a time such as this. I think you're going to find this conversation enlightened. Fun. And he's got some great insight on legacy that just can't be overlooked, whether you have one or you're trying to build one.
So now without any further ado, here's my conversation with Tom Ziglar. Welcome [00:01:00] back to the podcast. I'm so excited today to have author speaker and coach Tom Ziglar from Texas. Tom. Thank you so much for being here today.
Tom: Hey Tony, it's great to be here. Thanks for having me on.
Tony: Well, it, it truly is an honor.
And you know, for our listeners, you might recognize the Ziglar name. Obviously your dad is the legendary Zig Ziglar. And I, I'm always curious how did you end up in a, in a similar calling to your dad? I mean, how would you describe your calling as it is?
Tom: Wow. That's a journey. You know, when dad was alive, he told me and my sisters, he said, you will never know true freedom until I'm gone.
And we didn't know what that meant, but a big part of that was we were very much focused on his legacy and carrying on the, the, you know, cause gosh, in our industry five decades, 45 books written, I mean, [00:02:00] 250 million people impacted. That's that's pretty big. So when I started at the company, I just worked my way through it.
Then moved into leadership. And it was really only about 11 or 12 years ago. When I started speaking, I didn't want to be a speaker. I was the guy behind the stage who made it possible for everybody else to take the stage. And so it was really a journey and kind of the turning point for me. Was this?
I had a great, I don't know, it's not fear or worry. It was just kinda like a an anxiousness about speaking. And I would ask myself, why do I feel that way? And then I answered it that I thought people would want me to be just like my dad. And he had never said that he'd never won, said, Hey, you should be a speaker.
You should do this. You should do that. So the [00:03:00] burden wasn't from him, it was something I created on myself. And then I realized that's just not true. The truth is, is that people wanted me to be who God created me to be and the gifts and talents that I have my own personality, my own style, and to walk in the principles and values.
The dad taught and that's two different things, right? So going on stage and honoring what dad taught and believe, which is right out of God's word is a much different type of responsibility than trying to imitate. Maybe the greatest speaker, whoever walked on the stage, because none of us can, none of us can be his executor, just like Jack, Nicholas, his kids can't be Jack Nicholas.
Tony: Right. Yeah. Do you think do you think that there was that moment when you took the stage for the first time that you knew that it was That, this is what God was calling you. How do you know [00:04:00] that it's God's voice and not just your own stuff, getting wrapped up into it. How do you discern that kind of moment of truth?
Like, okay, this is me. I'm now from behind the scenes to the front of the scenes. How do you discern that moment of truth in your, in your heart and spirit?
Tom: You know I'll, I'll just describe the way I described dad dads. I started studying kind of spiritual qualities or character qualities from God's perspective.
Like you know, we all value different qualities and we think, gosh, if I had more of that, I'd be, you know, I'd be more successful, but what is the spiritual quality that God. I would like to see in us. Right. Cause that's, that's the one. Well, when you look at the old Testament it's a lot about obedience.
And when you get into the new Testament, it's more about love or humility.[00:05:00] And there's a number of them. And so I started digging in and then there was this, this quality called brokenness and brokenness is like the ultimate humility. It basically means from a spiritual perspective that you realize there's nothing you can do of eternal significance without God's help.
Right. So it's, it's, it's not broken that you're useless. You can't do anything. It's like complete humble submission that says, God, whatever you're going to do, you're going to do. And I'd love to be a vessel or a tool or a mouthpiece or whatever. And so when dad would go on stage, he would go out there really in brokenness.
And when you study what a broken person is, it's, it's someone who really understands. They only have two responsibilities, and that is to prepare for the moment, right. Prepare as best you can. [00:06:00] And the second is to speak God's truth and love. That's really it. Now, the reason that's so powerful is dad always said, I never worry.
Right. I just never worry. And I that's still, that gets me because I have, I'm not there yet. Yeah, Lord, he would not worry about anything. Well, it comes back to that brokenness because if you speak God's truth in love, you have no responsibility for how that person receives. That's between them and God.
Okay. So, so dad would go on stage and he wasn't trying to please the host, he wasn't trying to please the audience, he wasn't trying to get a standing ovation. He was just sharing God's truth and love and leaving it up to everybody there. Well, that, that that's between them and God. So now he's got this amazing boldness.
That [00:07:00] everybody receives in the right way because it's spoken in love. And that's one of the problems we have today is people will speak the truth, but it's not always in love. And so, so for me, I take that and I go, well, how do I know I'm walking in that? Right. Right. And I think it has to do with.
You've whatever's put in front of you, you know being available, doing whatever God tells you to do, and then preparing for that for the best of your ability. And it's just a daily, it's a daily walk in, in the first book I wrote, choose to when we talk about. How do you find your, your purpose or your why?
And there's, there's three circles that I talk about, you know, what makes your heart sing? Right? What does you get real excited about? The second one [00:08:00] is, gosh, what kind of problems do people bring in? And because if you look back at the type of problems that people bring, you you'll start to see consistency on them.
You know, are they people problems or business problems? And the third one is what's the biggest challenge you've overcome. You know, what's the biggest obstacle and where those three things kind of overlap. That's a great place to look for your calling because what makes your heart sing? Who put it. I think God did.
Right. What problems do people bring you naturally without even asking that's your gifts and talents? So we want to align our gifts and talents with what makes our hearts sing. And then the greatest lessons we learn in life are usually in the struggle or the battle either something happened to us. We didn't have any control over other than, than how we were going to respond to it.
Or we made some bonehead [00:09:00] decisions along the way and had to deal with the consequences.
And so that's where I say. You'll look for it. Right? You look for it, but then the, in this, in the middle of those three things.
Tony: Yeah. So one of the interesting things about, as you talk about values and you talk about your your calling you represent what I call a sneaky Jesus. Right. And because the work that you do is not an overtly Christian, it's not, it's, it's definitely designed for the marketplace.
It's designed for businesses and yet your values and the work that you do is also clearly rooted in biblical values. It doesn't take a, a biblical scholar, a theologian to recognize that how do you bring the Christian feel to a very secular market place?
Tom: Yeah, and I, and I can give you different [00:10:00] scenarios.
But you know, it's like in the new book 10 leadership virtues for disruptive times, the 10 virtues, because mind be selfless practice self-control show respect, look for the best to be positive. Okay. These are, those are some of those 10 virtues. Sure. Right. Well, who's going to disagree with that.
Tony: That's right. The biblical truth just holds true.
Tom: Yeah. And so where did we pull those from first Corinthians chapter 13, right, right. Which is, that's the love chapter. You're right. My, my daughter got married in January and that was one of the scriptures we were. And so there must be a reason, right? It's all about relationship.
And so I don't when I come on stage in a secular environment you know, [00:11:00] if, if we get an, a lot of times I like to be interactive and ask the audience questions. And so I love it. When I pose an idea or a thought that's on the edge of sharing the faith and then somebody takes the hint and they ask the question, right.
So where'd that come from? And then you can tell them. Right, right, right. But it's because they asked and it's always better to be asked in those situations than it is to. To come forward and, you know, kind of push it down. But you have to first have set the bench, the standard pretty high of walking it out.
So I'll talk about as business owners and leaders, and we need to set the highest standard and offer the deepest grades. Yeah, right. And so what do I mean by that? If a business has no [00:12:00] standards, it's going to go out of business because everybody can do what they want. Right? The customers are going to run, but you also have to have the deepest grace, which is very simple.
You know what we all, we're human. We make mistakes. And, and so when you're working with your people and you build a relationship and you offer them the deepest grace, and you say, Hey, we win some. We learn some as long as the mistake, isn't constantly being repeated. And as long as. The mistake isn't in violation of one of the virtues that we agreed to live by.
Right? Cause those are, those are big things. Then we have room for growth because if you, if you see my hands, if there's no standard and no grace, there's nowhere to go. But if the standards really high and the grace is really deep, that's a huge area for people to grow and people love to grow.
Tony: I, I do want to just point out, you said winsome and learn [00:13:00] some, I thought that was a, that was really good.
I don't want that to go past them. And that could be the whole price of admission right there in the podcast because I think what you're suggesting there, the losing, if you're learning.
Tom: Right. And I don't know who said that exact quote first, but it wasn't me, but you know,
Tony: I look I'm here for it. I was ready to give you, Tom Ziglar said wins.
I'm learning some that's it that's that's good. I do want to jump into this new resource that you've created this the, the virtues for disruptive times. And I thought we could start with kind of a, a macro look at how would you describe. Disruptive times today because I know every season of leadership, at least from my experience has been disruptive and no season feels the same.
And yet this season definitely feels the hardest that I've ever been in as a leader. How are you classifying disruptive time?
Tom: So I'm actually [00:14:00] so this book I had started writing it at the end of 2019. And of course, a huge shift in, it happened in March of 2020. And I really started digging into, gosh, what's changed in business.
You know, what has changed in all these different.
And as I, as I looked at it, I mean, they're the big, massive disruption obviously is the pandemic, but it was collective meaning all of us in our own unique circumstance still went through this massive disruption, you know, as a family, as a community, as a city, as a state, as a country and as a world, And so millions and millions of people got sent home, right?
So immediately the remote work and the shutdown. And then we started losing people. We loved[00:15:00] friends, family got sick, some passed away, and then these waves start happening. And so the massive disruption first to change the way we did work, because now. People are at home and they're working from their house and they got kids running in the background.
And you know, the boss sends me a text at five 30 in the morning. Should I answer it at five 30 in the morning? And then something else happened right behind that. And that is that people started saying is what I'm doing. Does it matter? Does it really matter? Because if, if my, because I call it the two by four of life.
Together. We realized the certainty of uncertainty and the certainty of mortality. So we're now we're certain everything's uncertain because look at all of how we made plans are west and. Especially younger [00:16:00] people who hadn't dealt with mortality. It's now all around us. Right. It's hitting us in the head all day long.
So now I've got to, I want my life to count. I want to do something that makes my heart sing. I want to live for a purpose. A lot of people just kind of stumble into their first job and they do okay with it and they get promoted. And before they know it, they got 10 years doing something that they never really thought about prior to.
Is this what I really want it? So now you've got these, these forces going on. And of course now it's the, the headline is the great resignation. Yeah. Everybody today is resigning. So we've got like 11 million jobs and we've got nine and a half million people looking for jobs. People are quitting at the highest rate in history in September, and they're finding new jobs.
And what are they looking for? And the buzzword is flexibility [00:17:00] people. So people suddenly, when they went home and they started working more remote or more hybrid they had like 3 million women, I think was the number that I read when home from the day job. And a lot of them are never going back. And the reason is, is they realized that they could take care of their family.
They could take care of their health, they could make a schedule and they could find something else to do from home that would equal out net, maybe the same or more money than they were doing, leaving the house at seven 30 and getting home at six. And so here's, what's really interesting. His dad said back in the seventies, that if standard of living is your goal, quality of life almost never goes up.
Yeah. But if quality of life is your goal [00:18:00] standard of living, almost always go. So in my research, big companies, their number one issue that they're concerned with when it comes to productivity is the health and wellbeing of their people. Because people are collectively depressed, anxious, worried. They've got all these other things are dealing with that's that's killing productivity and performance.
And so the world is suddenly figured out that. Quality of life equals quality of work. So as a believer, it's almost like God has said, wait a second. Our priorities are out of line. Let's all get on the same page. What's really important. And so faith and family and physical health and all these things have become more and more important.
And so the great resignation, what they're saying in the press is that people want autonomy. They want it, [00:19:00] they want to choose when they work, where they work, how they work, and then if you're an authority, If you're leading an organization, it's like herding cats. How do you, how do you bring a team together where everybody wants to do what they want to do when they want to do it?
And that's another massive disruption. The other aspect is that these disruptions are going to continue in strength and in frequency. So more disruptions are coming. They're going to be worse than what we've just been through. And when I say worse, I mean, if you're a status quo person, you're going to think it's worse.
If you are an opportunity person, if you are a core values person, you're going to think it's better.
Tony: Well, w one of the things that it made me think about is I had, so I had a conversation a couple of years ago now with the high school football coach who said that we're asking coaches to coach in a way that they've never been coached themselves.
And it feels like a [00:20:00] lot of what we're talking about with the resource that you're putting out and just the overall kind of environment and scene of the workplaces. We're asking these CEOs and leaders to lead in a way that they've never been led. And so how do how do people like you, who, whose job is to come alongside entrepreneurs and.
Business owners and coaches and, you know, and, and walk alongside them in this transition of this new leadership that's full of what my friend, Ryan Hawk likes to say soft skills all the time. How do we teach an entire generation of business owners that it's not the way it used to be anymore and why it matters?
Tom: Yeah. So let me give you a quick model. And I use the term coach leader, so. I don't like all the titles of supervisor, boss, manager, director to me. They're coach leaders. Okay. So coach leadership or coach leader. So when you said the word coach, you're my eyes lit [00:21:00] up. Cause I love that. So let's look at the past.
Okay. The past was a traditional top-down positional do it because I said so command and control leader, right? It's all about the rules. It's all about delegation. It's do it because I said so it's telling people what to do, and that doesn't work on a camera. If you're going to lead people on a camera, that's not going to work.
And, and young people, by the way, don't like it. And by the way, neither do you. And neither do I, I mean, right.
Tony: We just, we learned to tolerate it. Cause that was the only option because everybody just interrupting this conversation with Tom to tell you a little about the spirit in truth conference, March 17th, through the 19th, in Dayton, Ohio at Stillwater church, we are going to put together a conference.
That's going to feel a little bit more like a camp meeting. So if you need a little recharge, a little holy spirit, an opportunity to connect with God, we want to see you here. March 17th through [00:22:00] the 19th. And to top it off, we have a coupon code for you. That's right. When you go to spirit and truth.life/conference, register for the conference and put in the promo code reclamation, put in the Como promo code reclamation, we're going to give you $20 off the conference price.
I would love to see you there I'll be hosting the event. I can't wait to connect with you in person, March 17th, through the 19th at the spirit and truth conference. Now let's continue our conversation with Tom Ziglar.
Tom: Yeah. So Tony, now what we've got is we've got this, a huge thing that we call the great resignation and people are, you know, 11 million jobs open nine and a half million people looking September.
We had the highest quit rate in history and a lot of people are, they're just, they're looking for. You know, a job, that's going to give them more money and more flexibility. And so here's the dance and I'll, I'll kind of lay out a [00:23:00] model because, you know, we went through the pandemic. Everybody now wants to make sure that what they do matters.
They've gotten a taste of working remotely, a lot of people like that. And so what what's, what's going on with this thing? So here's the dance, the dance is, is around what I call coach leaders. And now you said earlier the coach said, Hey, you know, we're, we're asking our coaches to coach in a way that they were never coached.
And so I think leaders are in the same position, the old style top down do it because I said so command and control, delegate a rules implementing leader who tells, instead of asks that type of leadership role is. It's going away at warp speed. I mean, it was never, in my opinion, it was never the best way.
Anyway. Young people don't like it. And it certainly [00:24:00] doesn't work over a camera. I mean, just try telling your team do it because I said so on a camera, knowing they've all got their resumes out and people are beaten down the door to hire top performers. I mean, one of the rules right now, All the leverage is in the hands of the top performers.
If you are a high-performing individual, there's a lot of places where you can go and work. So I like the term for the new leader role as coach leader, coach leader is much better than manager or supervisor or boss or director or whatever you want to call it. I like coach leader. So here's the dance coach leaders choreograph.
The dance between autonomy and authority. Let me say that again. Coach leaders choreograph the dance between autonomy. [00:25:00] And authority. So what does that mean? Well, people who are out hunting for jobs today, they want autonomy. They want to, they want flexibility. They want to work for the company. They want to work from, from the place they want to work from.
And in the hours they want to work. And we have this cultural messaging that says that personal. Is the highest standard we're, we're all supposed to respect everybody's personal truth. If you're a business owner or a coach leader or an executive somewhere, could you imagine having a group of 10 people that report to you and the rule is as you've, you've got to live by everybody's individual personal truth and they get to decide when, where, and how they work, but you get what you get is chaos.
So let's, let's lay out a model, okay. Between the old type of leadership that's going away. And the coach [00:26:00] leadership that we talk about in the book, 10 lead leadership virtues for disruptive times, it's taken the place. So if we have autonomy on one side and authority on the other and the autonomy side, this is what people want.
There's two types and I'm making some pretty wild. Ranging comments here.
Tony: We're talking in stereotypes and generalizations.
Tom: So on one side, we have a workers who are purpose-driven and workers who are pleasure driven. So think about it. Purpose-driven team members and they, they, they have a big goal, a dream of why they're working for something more than a paycheck.
They want to show up and be more capable tomorrow than they are today. They want to improve their attitude, their effort and their skill. And there's a lineman between the vision and virtues of the company and their own personal vision for their life and the virtues that they live in. In other words, they want to work somewhere.[00:27:00]
That makes a difference in the world, the vision, the company, the mission, the problem they solve, the impact they have on their community is positive. They get excited about that. Well, if you're a leader, that's who you want on your team, right? So we call those top performers. Now the individuals who are pleasure driven.
In other words, they're the ones most likely to say, you know, I can't believe they got mad at me because I was late. I mean, right, right.
Tony: I know exactly who you're talking about.
Tom: And so there's a word for this in. You know, and the textbooks they call them disengaged people at Ziglar, we have kind of a a funny term for them.
We call them zombies. It's right there. Just go through the motions. And basically as obvious goal is to do only enough work to keep their job right. They want to, they do just enough to keep the paycheck, but when you're. Zombies questions. And what [00:28:00] do you think you just get blank stares, right? So those are the, so that's the purpose driven and the pleasure driven team member.
So on the other side, on the leadership side, on the authority side, we have accountability, which is positive. And then we have control, which is negative. And so the accountability driven, what I call coach leader. What they do is two things. They constantly promote the vision and the virtues of the business they work for.
Hey, this is what we do. This is the good that we, this is what happens when we make a sale. This is what happens when we satisfy a customer. This is good stuff. People's dreams come true and virtues are how we treat each other. The kindness, the respect, the generosity, the things that we really value. And then.
From an accountability perspective. What a coach leader does is they look over at their team members and they [00:29:00] focus on the goals and growth of each individual. And so if, if I'm a coach leader and there's somebody on my team, I build a relationship and I'll ask them, Hey, what's your dream? What's your goal?
What do you want to have happen? And in the beginning of this relationship, they might be a little quiet because they don't know you and they don't want to share it too much. But as time goes by and you build this trust-based relationship, they're going to say, Hey, I want to get out of debt. I want to buy a house.
I want to travel. I want to create savings. I want to send my kids through college. I want to advance up the career path. And so what a coach leader does is says to that person, that top performer, Hey, I love that. Would it be okay if we co-created a plan to help you reach your goals. So who's going to say no to that.
And the book I use doc rivers, as an example, doc rivers is an NBA [00:30:00] coach and people have given him a lot of credit because he leads a team that make more money than he does. The players on the team are higher paid than he is. And they asked him, how do you do it? And he said, real simple. He says, I sit down with each one of them one-on-one before the season.
And I asked him, what are your goals for the season now in the NBA, when you sign a contract in that contract, it's all kinds of clauses. And so every player has bonus clauses. Like if you play a certain amount of minutes, if you score a certain amount of points, if you make a certain amount of steals. And so he will have that player say my goals for the season and are.
He is a coach leader asking the team player, what are your goals? The team player is saying, you know, I want to play 18 minutes a game. I want to score 17 points, a game, whatever. At the end of that conversation, doc rivers says, you know what? That's awesome. And then he leans it on and he says, is [00:31:00] it okay if I hold you accountable to your goals?
So this is ownership. Okay. The team, the team, the top performer on the team now has ownership of their own plant. Now, the other type of leader is the control leader and I call them the T-Rex leader and it's not by accident. Okay. This is a dinosaur and they have sharp teeth and they have really short arms, which stands for, they want to control everything very closely.
And they're also extinct. Okay. So T-Rex leaders are going extinct. And so their answer is, Hey, you know what you do it because I said, so I control everything. Everything needs to be approved by me. And I want to actually see you working. And so what's happening in a lot of business. Environments is old school leaders who, who practice leadership through command and control.
They like to measure [00:32:00] output. Coach leaders are focused on outcome output is I'm watching you make a hundred calls. Outcome is, did we get closer to the mission and vision and goals of the company, the cause of what you did? Right there. See, there's a difference. And then we got to understand that in a, in a business environment.
So we've got vision and virtues. That's what we lead our business by. And this is what attracts a top performer. This is how a coach leader leads and then the other quadrant or in the area is what we call compensation and contribution have to be reflected of each other. People want to know that their contribution and compensation line.
Because this is a great thing, Tony, you know, do you want to make more money, less money or the same money next year? What would you say? [00:33:00] Yeah. And if you don't, you're lying and you know, so it was a coach leader. I say, Tony, I want to pay you more money next year. But in order for me to pay you more money, your contribution to the organization has to result in profits and growth.
Does that make sense to you? A hundred percent. Great. Is it okay if we put together a plan that we co-create, that allows you to make more money?
Tony: Absolutely.
Tom: Right. Yeah. And so then we have the coaching process that we teach, and that is a very simple one. We call it the attitude times, effort, times skill equals performance coaching process.
And so what that means is I would say, Hey, Tony, and your role, what kind of attitudes could you demonstrate that would allow you to make more money? And if you're not been COVID. And, or if you're a [00:34:00] leader and you've never been taught this question and you don't know how to implement it, it's very difficult.
And as a team player, if you've never been asked that question, you're likely responses. I don't know. What do you mean by attitude? Right. And so there's some nuance here, but it's actually very simple. So the example that I use in the book is imagine an HVAC technician, somebody who goes to a house to fix an air conditioning unit.
Right. And if you've been around long enough, we've all had our air conditioner go out when it's a hundred degrees outside. I mean, the Lord. So I would, if I'm the coach leader, I would ask that HVA, technics and HPAC technician to notes. So what kind of attitude could you demonstrate? With our, with the customer to make more money.
And they might say, I have no idea. Then I would ask this question. So when you knock on the door and the homeowner opens the door and it's a hundred degrees inside and they're [00:35:00] sweating, what are the emotions that, that person's face? And the HVHC, if they've been around, they've seen it. Oh, they're worried.
They're hot. I'm not going to, you know, are they going to rip me off? Can I trust them? You know, how much is this going to cost? Great. Okay. So that's how they're feeling when you walk in now, when you're done, what's the feeling that you want them to have when you're completely done with the, with the jet, with the day, every everything speaks.
Oh, I want them to feel. Golly. I want them to feel good. I want, I want them to feel confident that they can trust our work, that they got a good value, even that they would refer us to their family and friends. All right. Fantastic. So what attitudes could you demonstrate to the customer? They would move them from how they felt when you showed up until how they felt when you left.
Ah, well, I could get there five minutes early. I could have a big smile. I could present with a great [00:36:00] attitude, all the details that we're going to do, I could give, I could put little booties on my, on my shoes so that they can see that I care about their house. These are all little attitude, things that they can do.
So the way we grow somebody is we've let them as a coach leader, you let your team members tell you what they're going to work on because now they have ownership and then you close it off with, is it okay if I'll hold you accountable to that plan? And so that's, that's what it's like. Okay. So we've got this dance between autonomy and authority.
And we've got the highest standard, which is the coach leader and the top performer. And then we got the thing we don't want to be, which is either a zombie or a T-Rex leader, but here is the awesomeness of this. And that is a coach leader's job is to [00:37:00] encourage support, equip and help co-create. A plan or a goal with their top performer that will help that top performer improve in their attitude, effort and skill so they can become the best version of themselves with the ultimate goal of giving that person as much autonomy as possible.
In our business. What we want at the end of the day is we want Navy seals on our team. When we think of a Navy seal, all we have to say is here's the mission? Here's the support. Go get them. That's right. We don't have to, if you micromanage it, manage it, they fail. Right. They are, they are taught how to make great decisions under pressure through giving.
Autonomy now a top performer, a great top performer. This is, this is what they ask. [00:38:00] They ask their coach leader. Hey, will you hold me accountable to the goals that I've seen? And that's a powerful relationship. So you've got leadership, a coach leader. You're trying to build a tatami and you've got a top performer saying, hold me accountable to becoming the best person that I can become.
And so that's, that's kind of the dance and people want autonomy, but they need leadership. And so how are you going to do it? Are you going to demand control or are you going to create a relationship based on trust? With the, with the bedrock of accountability.
Tony: No, I'm, I'm sitting here listening to you share all these thoughts and you know, a thousand things are going through my head and the number one thing that, that just kind of came to me and hopefully from the holy spirit, I think so is that.
You didn't write a leadership book. You wrote a book about discipleship, right? Th this is the [00:39:00] quintessential paradigm of disciple-making. And when we look at Paul and Timothy's relationship, what we see is this kind of this spiritual side. The spiritual fathership and again, with a common vision, common accountability, and some some really good boundaries about what the expectations are so that Timothy can live into it for Paul's for Paul's vision.
So I love this. Man. I love this for pastors who might be listening that have teams to lead, because I think that we certainly see this in the church world, especially when compensation can sometimes be hard to find. And I really love it if we put it through the lens of disciple-making where it's like, man, if you want to walk alongside someone, especially in the next generation, this is the paradigm that we have to start doing.
It's not going to be. Sunday school. It's not going to be program. You're not going to program your way to deep discipleship. It's this kind of I don't know. [00:40:00] I th I think you're onto something here, man. I, I really appreciate.
Tom: Yeah. And some of the, I was looking at this whole thing and I'm wow. I'm like, wow, this is really cool.
And then I realized, Hey, wait a second. This is what we do as parents.
Tony: Right?
Tom: You have our kids. And, you know, in the beginning there's a lot of control and, you know, we're, we're guiding and direct them, but our whole goal is to make them completely autonomy. So then when they leave the house, you know, 20 years later, we move in with them, they don't move back in with us. Right.
Amen. That's what it's about. And then I look at it from a spiritual perspective, you know, autonomy, God gave us free. And we get to choose, right. We get to, we get to choose the gift. And so we go in and we choose the gifts and then we turn right around and we say, but God, your plans are better than mine.
So I completely [00:41:00] submit to your authority, holding me accountable to walking out your word and your direction. And so it's that, it's that same relationship. So I'm flying back from Atlanta a couple of weeks ago. And I'm sitting next to this guy and he's an it cyber security specialist. He travels a lot, somebody who I only know for an hour, but I would consider him a top performer.
And I said, wow, I bet you're getting a lot of calls from head hunters to come work in their companies right now, because you know, that's the state right now. He goes, he kind of smiled and he just kind of deflected it. And I said, well, You have your resume out there, don't you? And he said, well, I probably should, but I don't.
And I said, well, why don't you? And this is what he said. I really liked the leaders that I work with, the people on my team now.
Tony: That's good.
Tom: So why does he like the leaders on his team? Because they're helping him step into. [00:42:00] His purpose. Yeah. One of my friends and mentors his name is rabbi Daniel Lapin, and he says this, he says, the opposite of depression is not happiness.
The opposite of depression is purpose.
So when we look at the cultural state, right. Everything that's gone on, people are unhappy. And so they've, self-medicated with Netflix and alcohol and too much food. And so then they get upset and they think Ali, I'm not being paid. Right. And the people down at the company really don't value me. And so what do they do?
They quit? And they take their same self to work for a different company, probably get hired by the same type of leader, because they don't know how to pick. They don't, they, they don't, they pick the wrong place to start. Now they're taking their same skillset. They're going to pick another [00:43:00] wrong place.
When this, when the process is really simple. What's your purpose? So a coach leader. Sits down with each of their people on the team and says, what your dream, what's your purpose? Let me help you get.
Tony: I love it, man. I love it. There's so much here to dive into. We could probably talk for days, but I want to make sure I respect your time.
I have a couple more questions for you, but there'll be quick hitters. I promise. I know that. My audience is going to want to learn more about about you, where they can pick up the book. The book is releasing this week as the podcast release December 7th and so super excited for all of that and what it looks like, where is the best place to pick up their copy of of the book 10, 10 leadership virtues for disruptive time.
Tom: Yeah, it's everywhere. So you can go to Amazon, you can go to Barnes and noble, wherever you buy books, it's going to be there. Whether you like a physical book or an audio book, it's all available. [00:44:00] So just type in on Amazon or wherever you go, 10 leadership virtues for disruptive times by Tom Ziglar, and you can get it.
We'll have it available. Also is ziglar.com. But you know, wherever you want to get it is, is going to be great. So we tell people. It's easier to do what you've always done. So just go get it where you get most of your books.
Tony: Okay. I have one big question that I always end the podcast with, but I want to throw in a bonus question and your dad might be one of the most quoted people of all times.
I'm curious. What's your favorite quote from your dad?
Tom: Yeah. So I have two favorite quotes. My favorite a lifetime quote is he said, the shoe are what you are and where you are because of what's gone into your mind and you can change what you are and you can change where you are by changing what goes into your mind.
Oh, amen. And so that is Romans 12 two. I mean, that's just the renewing of the mind. And [00:45:00] so dad would say, Hey, if you're unhappy with where you are, That's okay. You can change. And you start with what you put into your mind. Now, my heart favorite one is this dad at the end of his life had Alzheimer's.
And so it was sometimes it was a struggle for him to get a thought out and. Late in life. He said he would say to us do you know what my favorite quote is? Or do you know what my favorite saying is? And we would always say, no, dad tell us. Right? Because he was, he was thinking about something. And so he looks at me and he says, son, do you know what my favorite quote is?
And I said, no, what is it? And he looked at me and he said this. He said, son, God don't make no junk. And thanks to your mother. Neither do I.
And I knew that was just for me, so good. It was just for me. So it was at a time in his life where it was his heart talking as much as, as intellect. So. I love that. [00:46:00]
Tony: Okay. So the very last question I ask all my guests. It's an advice question. And I'm going to ask you to go back and give yourself one piece of advice, except I get to name the exact time and date.
And so I want to take you back to day one as the CEO of the Ziglar legacy, the Ziglar company. If he could go back and talk to that younger version of yourself, what's the one piece of advice you'd give your.
Tom: Wow. Okay. So that would be 27 years ago. And I've thought about that many times. Here's my piece of advice to me.
Dad had access to amazing people. He spoke and corporations, he would get invited to the green room, the owners and founders and executives of these companies would host him. And I was busy running the company while he was out 15 or 20 times a year meeting with the who's who. If [00:47:00] I could change anything, it would be to go back in time and to just go with him on every one of those occasions and just watch how he built those relationships and then intentionally create a relationship with those people because they are the people that he met with.
They were, they were leading companies of tens of thousands of people. That would be the one thing. And so that's the thing, right? That we need to play the long game. We need to think about what can I do today? That's going to benefit me in 20 years. Yeah, I could, I could justify being back in the office, taking care of the widgets, but the reality is, is nobody could have had that position.
Like I did. And I missed standing next to the greatest ambassador that I could imagine. And that was dad and I would've just gone to carry his bag and support him and to learn those relationships [00:48:00] and to build a network of influence. Wow.
Tony: That's so good. Yeah. I think, I think what I hear you saying is don't ever miss on the opportunity to connect with the people and in exchange for connecting with the.
Tom: Yeah. Yeah. Don't, don't get caught up in the kitchen, you know, they'll watch. Yeah.
Tony: That's so good, Tom. Thank you so much for your generosity today. Thank you for giving this resource to the community. I know that that that is going to help a lot of leaders out there engage the next, hopefully less disruptive, but still disruptive time in their leadership journey.
So thank you so much for your ministry and for your. Thank you. I told you guys what a great conversation with Tom. I love the way he talks about how disruptive times create opportunities for us to connect with people in new and different ways. Make sure you pick up his book, follow him on socials. Let them know you heard him here on the reclamation podcast and Hey do me a.[00:49:00]
Hit that subscribe button, wherever you listen to podcasts that way, you're sure you're not going to miss any future opportunities. Connect with us on social media at TW melts at TW Milt and the biggest compliment you can give us, share this episode with a friend I'm thankful for each and every one of you and the opportunity that we have to connect on this platform.
And remember, if you want to follow Jesus, you must be willing to move.
