#145: Jason Moore: Creating a Both/And Worship Experience
Jason Moore is a speaker, author, and someone who care deeply about the local church.
In our conversation, we talk about the move to digital worship, how to engage the community, and what it means for the larger landscape of the church.
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EP. 145
Tony: [00:00:00] Hey everyone. Welcome back to the reclamation podcast, where our goal is to help you reclaim good practices for faith in life. I'm Tony. And today is episode 1 45 of the podcast where I sit down with one of my dear friends, Jason Moore, Jason, and I have known each other for over a decade. He shares with us today, his insight into both and.
What does it mean to reconvene the church and our hearts as we turn towards Jesus in this unprecedented time of the church, I think you're going to love this conversation. And remember our goal is that through intentional conversation, we can help you. A deeper relationship with God. So Hey, do me a favor hit that subscribe button, wherever you listen to podcasts, leave a rating or review on iTunes or Spotify, and maybe [00:01:00] even share this episode with a friend.
If you want to check out the show notes or the full transcripts, go to reclamation podcast.com. Now without any further ado. Here's my conversation with Jason Moore. Hey everybody. Welcome back to the podcast. I'm excited today to have one of my friends for the last 10 years. We've been friends, a decade, man.
It's hard to believe. Jason Moore, founder, president CEO, visionary for midnight oil productions. Jason, thank you so much for being well. First of all, a repeat offender here on the podcast.
Jason: Hey, it is my pleasure to be back.
Tony: Now Jason you're calling, as you think about it with the larger church, I was trying to write out all the things that you do.
And I'm like, well, he's on the district staff and he speaks at churches and he coaches, and he does hidden worship and he does the hybrid worship stuff, which we're going to get into today. How do you describe your calling when somebody says, what is it that.
Jason: [00:02:00] You know, that is a really complex question.
And my business card is an 11 by 17 sheet of paper so that I can list all of the various things that I do. I often call myself an author, speaker worship coach and consultant. So that's probably the short of it, but I, I do a little bit of everything. And, and in addition to all of that, really where I got my start was in doing media production.
I'm a graphic artist, motion graphics guy, you know, that kind of thing. So. I do a little bit of everything.
Tony: What do you w when you think about what, what God has placed on your heart, like the burden that you carry for the local church how do you often describe that to pastors or to, to neighbors who may not understand the full church dynamic?
Jason: Sure, absolutely. Well for me, I really believe that Jesus Christ is the hope of the world and the answer. And I think that my experience has been that in the church, we don't always communicate the gospel in a [00:03:00] way that makes that message attractive to people who And encounter it, you know, so people who didn't grow up in the church or have no church history.
So my passion is helping churches communicate the gospel and deep and meaningful ways that drives people deeper in their personal faith development and toward a mission in the world. And so I don't think of worship as the only door I just think of as the front line. To deeper discipleship and missional participation.
So my neighbors probably wouldn't understand that, but you know Y my dream as a kid was to go to Hollywood and make movies, and then Jesus got a hold of me, and I shifted my gifts toward helping the church learn how to communicate more effectively.
Tony: Yeah, we had a Stephen Kendrick on the podcast and he said a similar thing that it, it started out of this kind of internal passion to tell stories.
And then and then it kind of grew into this ministry. And I, I feel like you're kind of in a, in a similar boat [00:04:00] now. It's interesting, right? Like worship has kind of always been one of your bread and butter spots following your career like I have. But when, when COVID hit. Your world changed because so much of who you were was about going to churches, you were, I mean, how many times do you think you traveled in 2019?
Jason: Probably about 40, 45 trips to do either consultations or a lot of it was doing my creative worship seminar, which was all about how to, you know, it was all about in-person. I didn't really talk much at all about online back in those days, or I do a lot around hospitality. So I have a training called five things.
Your visitors are thinking, but won't ask and. Yeah. I mean, lots of frequent flyer miles and in 2019
Tony: and then 2020 comes along. And and, and what hap, what happens to you, right? Like w what do you do with a consultant who is like, you're just like, well, that's one less bellow gonna have to pay, [00:05:00] or what do you, I mean,
Jason: Oh, man.
It was terrifying. You know, I, I had two thoughts. The first thought was completely wrong. I remember saying to my kids, you're going to remember this two weeks for the rest of your life, because they were closing school down. Right. And because of people being sick and all that. So my first thought was all, this is just going to be, I, no big deal thing.
And then maybe three weeks into the pandemic, six. Different events that I was supposed to go do canceled. I got calls. Hey, we can't bring you out. The wonderful thing about the relationships I developed over the years is, and the fact that I'm in ministry is that almost all six of those said, we're going to go ahead and pay you anyway, and you can make it up when this thing is over.
It's not over, but I ended up shifting some things online. So I had this terrifying. Conversation with my wife. I said, I don't know what we're going to do. I have no clue what we're going to [00:06:00] do to make income, because so much of what I do is I go in person and I do trainings and consultant stuff and all of that.
And one of my friends who is a pastor in Denver had brought me out. And actually, I think, I think in August of 2019 to do a secret, worse for consultation, and then I did a training for his conference and he called me the day that the church shut down, though, they, the day the world shut down, they said you can't be in your buildings anymore.
And he's like, Jason we implemented all the stuff you told us to do when you came to be with us, but now we're on. Can you watch our online service because that's the only way people can experience what we do and secret worship it for us. And I was like, sure, yeah, I'd be happy to do that. I honestly didn't have anything else going on.
So and so I I watched that worship and I took two full pages, eight and a half by 11 of notes about things I thought Both things that were good, but things that really needed to be done differently if we're only [00:07:00] online. And so I shared that feedback with that. And in reading the notes, I said, you know his, his name's Jeremy, I said, Jeremy and so much of what I'm sharing with you here, I'm seeing in all these churches that just jumped online.
Would you care if I put together just a little article about this and I'll make you anonymous and he's like, oh yeah, sure. Go ahead. And so I posted that article on Facebook. And within one day I had one of the United Methodist annual conferences, the Susko Hannah conference in Pennsylvania Harrisburg area, reach out to me and say, Hey, could you turn that into a webinar?
I've never done a webinar. I mean, I've, I've participated in a webinar, but I've never led one. And so I said, well, let me, let me play around and see what I can learn. And maybe, yes, I don't know. Probably, and the very next day, West Virginia called and said, Hey, we saw that article. You did, could, could you do a training for us on that?
And I was like well, I'm working on it. And you know, over the course of the next several days I started working on [00:08:00] this in fact that you, you were a part of it, you know you, you helped me do a little bit of work on the handbook and within five days, 14 annual conferences all over the country hired me to do this training.
That training was called telling the old story in a new time. And it was all about how to do just online worship. But at the root of, of kind of your bigger question I felt like God was providing manna for me in the season. And it wasn't me. It was a totally a whole holy spirit thing. I didn't have this idea.
I just showed up and it was on the beach one day and I started collecting it. And and what's happened as a result of those things has just been an incredible God journey for, for the last couple of years as that training has morphed into other, other trainings, other opportunities a lot of coaching and consulting and so on.
But yeah, it was, it went from terrifying to feeling God's presence and maybe [00:09:00] the deepest way I've ever felt in, in my career because I've been completely dependent on God should always be there. But in the last few years you know, I didn't have a plan for what to do and, and God showed up, you know, so that's kinda my.
Tony: Well, you know, one of the things I'm curious about is you talked about relationships and and I know that you're a big relational guy. I'm curious. How much do you think the relationships that you've had for the last decade or so have prepared you for this moment? Cause it wasn't like, I mean, you, weren't a stranger to those places.
Yeah. Right. You've been obedient to what God's called you to for a long time. What, what does it look like for you to intentionally develop community? Cause I think that's something we're pretty
Jason: good at. That is one of the most important things I think for any entrepreneur to think about is the relationships, the people you invest [00:10:00] in I mean, those first two calls were conferences that I've done a ton of work for.
In fact, I was on retainer with the Susko Hanna conference for multiple years. And when they, I mean, that's why they are aware of what I was doing. So one of my friends that was on the conference staff there saw on my Facebook page, this article I posted and then he reached out to me what happened?
What what's been incredible. Is this is like that old, cheesy you know, camp song, pass it on only takes a spark to get a fire going, you know, those relationships, but those relationships, what happened is once I did. You know, a handful of these trainings. People started talking to other people and vouching for me and their relationships played in to what was happening for me.
And in fact, one of the things that I really believe about the ministry that we're doing today. And in fact, what I talk about in this new book is that at the heart of everything we do, it's not about technology. It really is [00:11:00] about relationships and building meaningful relationships. And I feel like. One of the dangers of this world, we find ourselves in and in hybrid worship and an online worship is that we are not intentional enough about building relationships.
Our online worship can be a revolving door where people come in and leave and we don't ever even know who entered our who left. And so I'm a big proponent. One of the things I've been harping on a lot. Consulting work is encouraging churches to build a discipleship pathway, or I might call it a relational pathway.
Those relationships are both with our community, but also with God. And if we don't do that, I feel like people will, will tune in watch and leave and and all of that. So relationships are really kind of at the heart of, I think, all that we do in, in ministry. And certainly I've been. One of the keys to the, any kind of success I've had over the last couple of years are, are in those relationships.
Tony: So I, I know you to be [00:12:00] a fairly innovative guy. And, and you've done a lot of things. You pivoted multiple times in your career and just, and just the time that I've known you, you've pivoted. How do you know when God is pushing you to your next? Yes. Right. When's the, when's the, I mean, like for awhile, you know, you were doing incredible trailers and books and, you know, book trailers and all this different kinds of work and like those kinds of things and you pivoted and then pivoted, and this latest expression of your ministry is another pivot.
W what's your relationship with God? Like, and how you acknowledge that yes. This pivot is from God or versus no, this is just me trying to be a, I don't know, you know, greedy or gassy or whatever, right. Like, sure.
Jason: Well you know to go back to what we talked about even in the last question, I think for me, part of it is relationships and what other people are hearing and seeing, and, and in conversation.
You know, [00:13:00] you and I know each other well enough that we, we both are talkers. And we both I don't know about you, but for me, sometimes I will be talking to someone and. My inner most feelings are revealed even to me in that moment. And sometimes when when I've been going through some of these pivots, I will be talking about how I'm feeling about something, or I'll be listening to a close friend or a mentor.
And God has revealed in the conversation. God's plan is revealed in that conversation. And all of that, you know, of course, I mean, there's. Prayer. When you're, self-employed, there's a lot of prayer in your life. Probably not enough at times, but you know, when in each pivot for me you know, you, you step in you give something a shot, you fake it till you make it.
And sometimes you don't make it, but God sends these little confirmations all along the way. I'll tell you that last year, not last year, 2020 I did that first training. And by the end of the [00:14:00] year I had done, I don't know, 28 of them or something. And I thought, wow, that was an incredible ride. It's over now.
And boy, I'll just I'll remember this forever. And I was in conversation with a ecumenical. And so this ecumenical leader wanted to book a training based on another book I wrote right as the pandemic began and in our conversation, he said Hey, how has your telling the old story in a new time thing going.
And I said, oh, it's, you know, it's going well. I said, but the problem is I keep coming up with new stuff and I can't, I can't fit it all into what I had. And I said, my big concern is what's going to happen when we start to go back to the room, you know, because that whole training was about online or socially distanced worship.
How do you do that? And so I shared about three things with him that I had been thinking about. And he's like, I want a training on that. And I had just offhandedly said, what are we? We've got to figure out how to do worship. And sort of way. And he was like, I'll [00:15:00] book two of them right now. Can you do it in November?
And I didn't have any clue that that was coming, but it's a relationship thing. I, I have done multiple trainings for these folks. They, I think, feel pretty confident about my abilities to communicate and I think my material is, is helpful for people. But it was in that conversation that God revealed something to me that I didn't even know was there and saying, here's just some thoughts I have.
And he said, he recognized it. That's a training and I want it and I need it. And so I feel like when you surround yourself with incredible people and you invest in relationships, at least for me, You know I don't as often hear that small, still voice you know, when I'm out in nature or you know, praying in the morning that God says, Hey, go and develop a seminar.
Instead for me, it's, it's sometimes just in those relationships and trusted voices in my.
Tony: No, I think that's really good. I think there's probably a lot of people who relate to that and can, can think about their [00:16:00] community. And one of the things that I know is that you've intentionally developed this community.
It's not that you when you're, I mean, you love to meet new people and so you're out there and you, you know, you give fully, so, you know, you mentioned the word spark and you kind of sparked this whole fire with the telling the news, you know, a new story. I got it mixed up, but the conference you did 28 times, and then the both end, the ministry that you're doing now you know, this is, this really has been like wildfire, you know, as I, as I watch, you're doing more than you ever have you're busier than you ever have.
What's your kind of feelings on H how do you properly steward. What God is bringing you now, like how do you both remain grateful, hungry, and and content all at the same time, it feels like a lot to manage
Jason: it. It is part of it is just being. Grateful and just being reminded or, or reminding yourself constantly of where you were at [00:17:00] on that day, that six things canceled and where you're at today, where you know, I have five retainer relationships with annual conferences.
Last year, I got to actively coach 175 pastors. I was leading 16 cohort calls a month and You know, that is not something, I mean, I am so grateful for that. And then there are days where like today is a five zoom call day. I had five, five appointments. I've got another training I'm doing tonight. And you know, I, I do get a little tired, but then I just kind, kinda stop and think.
Thank God that I'm this busy, you know thank God that I'm this tired because there have been other moments there have, I mean, there was a, a year that I went through some transition in ministry. Midnight oil. My ministry was I was a partner and I bought my partner out Lynn Wilson. And. I also, I was, I was basically buying him out and and also trying to do some things and feeling a little [00:18:00] depressed in, in seeing a ministry fall apart, not fall apart, but, but break up, I've been working, I'd been working with Lynn for 13 years and and I mean, we had a fairly lean year as far as income for me because I was buying someone out as a monthly sort of thing.
And I remember that year. Going through some old boxed up star wars toys that I had in wrapping them up as Christmas presents for kids, because we didn't have as much to spend that year on Christmas. And so, you know, moments like, like what I'm living through now, where I'm busier than ever. I try to remember those moments where it was like, I don't know how we're going to even make ends meet this month.
And. And the reality is, I don't know how long this wave lasts. So, you know, we have tried to just in our, in our own personal situation, you know pay off debt and you know, take, take, invest in the right things and you know, all of
Tony: that. So nothing but Bitcoin. [00:19:00]
Jason: Exactly right. Well, I I clicked on one too many cryptocurrency articles.
So every time I opened anything, I get little Bitcoin ads everywhere. I don't own anything. I I'm really curious. I've got a neighbor who's really into it, but I have not I've not invested anything there.
Tony: I love it. Well, and it reminds me of, you know, the years of feast and the years of famine and scripture.
And we see that. And I think one of the things that you do well is you sh you steward what you have when you have it. And and you remain obedient in both cases. So, so let's, let's talk a little about this new resource that you have coming out. It's it's a brand new book. Both and maximizing hybrid worship for an in-person and online engagement.
Now the, obviously that's the full official title, but it's really just both and right. And, and, and so give us kind of the idea of, of. The crux of this resource, because you're talking about two things that in the church world and for a [00:20:00] lot of us can feel very different. And I think what you're saying is they're both different and they're both equally important.
Jason: I think that's probably a fair characterization. I think that. One of the upsides of the pandemic. And there are plenty of downsides sure. Was that it forced the church to move. When the church hasn't moved in a long time, in some ways. And one of the ways that it forced us to move was online and, and to connect with more people.
The very first passage in the book is Quoting the great commission that we were to take the gospel to all, all people baptized in the name of the father, son and holy spirit. And we have to figure out the baptizing them in the father, son, and holy spirit online. Cause you can't, you know, that's more of a physical thing, but it's the reason I call it both.
And I really believe that we have this incredible opportunity, maybe the best opportunity in my lifetime to reach more people with the gospel. Because we are now [00:21:00] offering worship in a way that anybody can connect people that wouldn't walk into a physical building. People who are not in our zip code are not in our neighborhood, but the both and piece of this whole.
Puzzle for me is that we cannot just deliver the experience. We cannot create the experience that was in the room and simply put a camera in the back and go about business as usual and expect that to translate to those online. And so we have to create an experience that is, I think, equally for the people in the room.
Both the people in the room and the people at home, which means we have to re-imagine the experience a bit one of my favorite examples that I share both in the book and in the training that I do is to think about professional sporting of. Yeah. There's a difference between going to the game. I saw that you were at the bangles playoff game.
Did you get to go? Where are you at the playoff? I was at the
Tony: T the chiefs game when the Bengals destroyed the Kansas city chiefs [00:22:00] out there, especially my friend, Jeff Cartwright. They destroyed the chiefs and made the playoffs. And then when the playoffs go back,
Jason: You've got, there you go. I just knew you had bangles on, I couldn't remember which game it was that you were at the game.
You know, the experience at the game is different than the experience at home. You have a different sort of energy when you're with that crowd. You've got the sights, the sounds, the smells, the the beer and the hot dogs, the, you know, all that stuff. That you don't have when you're at home, but at home you don't have to deal with crowds and parking and disgusting restrooms.
And the ch the snacks are cheaper and you have commentators that will explain what's happening and instant replay. And, but it's the same game. The game is playing out in real time for both of those groups. And there are people at the stadium that are dedicated to giving you a great experience, the ushers, the vendors you know, the, the person playing charge on the, on the organ or whatever.
I don't know if they do that football [00:23:00] games, but but at at, at home you've got the commentators and all those things. And so it's, it's one thing that's being delivered in a both end way. I think for some of us, we have not really re-imagined worship. And so we're creating an experience where more or less what we're doing is we're the people at home are an afterthought and we without really meaning to turn them into spectators or to observers of an experience, they're not really a part of.
So the thrust of the book, the training is to help churches think about how do you create. Participation and engagement for people both online and at home, I say, we've got to get away from the language watching worship. We don't want to say if you're watching at home today, we want them to worship at home, not watch at home.
And some folks have had a real struggle with this idea of hybrid that you can't. If you're not in the physical space, it's not really worship, but I remind them that Paul's ministry. It was a hybrid ministry, you [00:24:00] know, all throughout acts. Paul is preaching to the people in person. But so much of our theology today is based on these epistles, these letters that were written distance apart and all throughout Paul's writings.
He's constantly saying, I wish we were together. I wish we were in person. I wish I could embrace you, but we don't discount that as somehow less than because Paul wasn't physically in the same space. And I really believe if we're intentional we can. Create transcendent expressions of worship through a both end approach.
Hey guys, just
Tony: pause in this conversation with Jason to remind you about the spirit and truth conference. That's right. We've been talking about it for a while now, and we're just over a month away. I want you to be in Dayton, Ohio, March 17th. As we kick off the spirit intrude conference. Now this conference will feel a little bit more like a camp meeting speakers from all over the world will [00:25:00] be there.
And I'm so excited to breathe a little life into you. The church leader, the pastor, the follower of Christ. So go to spirit and truth.life/company. And Hey, when you check out, put the promo code reclamation in to save a little money, our gift from us to you. I'm so excited for the conference, and I hope to see you in Dayton, Ohio, March 17th, through the 19th, for more information, check out spirit and truth.life.
Now let's continue this conversation with Jay. Now for all of my traditionals out there who are feeling very uncomfortable right now. Let me, let me just go ahead and ask the question on their behalf. Yes. Are you saying that it's okay for someone to only do
Jason: online worship? Personally? I am not a proponent of only online worship, but I don't think we should discount what [00:26:00] God can do through online worship.
I'll tell you there was a church I visited back in August. My favorite church to talk about they're called journey church in Columbia, South Carolina, pastor George Ashford and George that's a large African-American church. I think he said pre pandemic. They were around 600 or so. I don't know if that was membership or attendance or whatever, but he said in, in my community and the African.
Community. We have not been quick to get vaccinated. We have some negative history with allowing people to stick things in our arms that we don't know what they are. And so on. So he said I've got a congregation that's 80% online, 20% in person. And so I had to figure out how do you do church when you're going to do it in that way?
And in the African-American tradition call and response is a really important aspect of worship. So when the pastor preaches, the people participate, they yell things out. They you know, there's a dialogue that happens. And so he had to really think about how are you [00:27:00] going to do worship in that way?
And so there are a few things that I took from this experience. I'm actually. I'm really excited. I'm, I'm going to be flying to Columbia and working with them again this weekend. And I can't wait to see what I pick up from them this time. But when I was with them on that day, there were about four things that I think are great takeaways when it comes to both.
And the first captures three of them. And that is that they have what they call. The amen section that is at the front of their church, three high top tables that have little laminated cards that say social media ambassador on those three tables. And so they have servants that sit at those tables and their job is to be like the online.
A greeter or just they encourage participation. So I opened the chat during worship because I wanted to see what they were doing. So every single person that came into chat got a welcome. Every time they made a comment, there was a response, there were always hearts and likes. And people are fully engaged throughout that.
The second thing they do. As they had a whiteboard behind them. And they actually wrote on the [00:28:00] whiteboard attendance in, in the moment on that board. So it started off with 30 and they raised, it became 50, became 80. I think it went all the way up into the a hundred and thirties. That's 130 households, which allowed the people in the room.
To be aware of the people, not in the room. So they felt a connection in that way. And the third thing that happened, and this was my favorite and why I think they call them the amen section is that sometimes people would put in comments, like preach it, brother Ashford. And someone from one of those tables would yell out the comment that somebody at home made.
So they got to be full participants. That meant that the pastor was aware by looking at that board of who was there. By listening to the comments that were coming out and so on. So those are three of the things, the fourth thing that I really appreciate it. And I think for any of our traditionalist out there this, this one is, is very helpful.
And why I'm a proponent of both and not either, or is that after worship was a communion Sunday after worship I walked out of the [00:29:00] building and there was a line of cars, probably 30 car cars long there to receive communion. Then. Hmm. So these people worshiped online and they pulled up in their car and communion stewards were there with masks and gloves and all of that.
But they would go to, you know, as the car would pull under the awning, they'd give them their elements. They'd received communion. So they were full participants in the online experience. And then they came to the building to experience the sacraments You know, I know there's a, when it comes to sacraments, there's a lot of different points of view.
I know some folks are saying, Hey, grab bread and juice or water or whatever. And you can participate today. I know other churches that are like pre blessing elements and saying, it's a communion week next week, stop by the church and pick up your elements. For me, it's not, I don't want to get, I don't want to tell you what the theology should be around that.
I think we all have to wrestle with that on our own, but we do have to remember that people want to engage in the full life of the church. So don't just make your communion. Hey, when you came in today, you received a packet. Well, no. When I walked into my living [00:30:00] room and turned the TV on, no one gave me a communion packet today to, to participate.
So how do we engage them in, in all of those ways? So
Tony: obviously this is a, this is a lot for a very difficult. Institution that doesn't really like change the church. Right. And so I, you know, what I appreciate about your approach is that you're not saying that one is better than the other. You're not saying that one is worse than the other, I think, and correct me if I'm wrong.
But what I hear you saying is. Let's just be intentional in the relationship building on both sides and however it fits into your theology, correct? I mean, is that too much of a
Jason: simplification? No, I think I think you more or less have captured it. Anyone who has heard me talk in the last few years, or the last couple of years, I've heard me say this, but I really believe we've got to stop ranking our congregation in terms of importance by where they see.[00:31:00]
You're not most important. If you sit in the front. You're not more important than the front than if you sit in the back. You're not more important if you sit on the ground level than in the balcony, and you're not less important if you're sitting at home than you are in the room, if you're there one week and you don't feel well the next week and you worship from home, your value, doesn't go down 50% in the kingdom of God, in a faith community.
And so. I think actually one of the churches I coach a pastor named Marilyn Weiler said this in one of her sermons when I was secret worshiping and I just loved it. She said, we've got to bring dignity and respect to our entire congregation, which means, and she was telling the people in the room, this sometimes I'm going to look right at the camera and talk to people at home.
I'm going to ask questions sometimes that people at home might give response and I might read it off my phone because they met. Just as much as the people in the room. And so it doesn't matter if you are doing a high church liturgical worship, or if you're doing the most modern worship [00:32:00] of all if you're a large church, if you're a small church none of that matters.
And even your theological bent, whether you're on the conservative side or the progressive side or whatever it's really just the. Bringing dignity and respect to our entire congregation. And I guess the last thing I would say is that if we're trying to reach new people, We want to be inclusive enough in our language that they can understand and, and, and come to know what we have come to know a long time ago.
So walking people into our rituals helping them understand the meaning of things. When we say things like sacrament or Eucharist or or even things like connect. You know, like if I'm online and you say, fill out your connect card, a card is a piece of paper. I don't have a piece of paper in my living room when I'm watching on my TV.
I don't even know what you mean when you say that. So it's it's that it's also. I, our language gives us away sometimes. So we're, we're really bad. I think sometimes in the church [00:33:00] about saying let's all stand together for the reading of the word. Well, do you really think people in their living room are standing up when you say that?
So I like to say if you were here in the room with us, let's stand together, or if you're worst being at home, find a posture. That will allow you to fully participate in this moment. Just acknowledging that they're there I think is, is what invites them into relationship both with our churches, but also with God through the worship that we are doing in this present time.
So I think
Tony: there are a lot of people who have taken to online worship as You know, the primary means of which they they now commune with religious community because of the pandemic. Right. And, and I know a lot of a lot of people aren't going back, it feels like that was true when I was pastoring.
And it's even more true now as I work with pastors, you know I, I don't think attendance is going to go back to in-person. I'm curious, what are you telling pastors when it comes to measuring. Period [00:34:00] when it comes to entering, right? Like attendance, you, you know, you and I both know. Right. And I've done a lot of online ministry with you and just myself over the years.
Right? Like an online view is, you know, number wise, one for one, can't be counted the same as. You know, we're not talking about paying attention. You know what, like, I, I am kind of, of the opinion that attendance no longer is a valuable metric. I I'd be curious what your thoughts on that are and what your.
What you're telling
Jason: people well I think it's a great question. It's the question that a lot of people are asking. And I think the reason a lot of people are asking, at least in the tribe that I've worked with the most United Methodist churches that, you know, they've got to fill out reports on attendance and all that, and they don't know how to count it.
Yeah. Let's, let's just be honest though, that butts in seats has never been. You know, equated disciples. You know, I could go to the gym every single day and sit on the bench and not do any [00:35:00] exercise whatsoever, but watch other people watch the instructors and not benefit at all from what I'm experiencing.
So just because someone shows up. In the room doesn't mean they're living out any of what we're talking about. Sure. So I think and I said this a little bit a moment ago, but developing a discipleship pathway, I think is key to how we measure what we're doing. I also think that in.
One of the, one of the questions I've been asking pastors a lot over this last couple of years, and especially in my coaching, is how's it going? And, and people always tell me the in-person numbers. We only have like 40% of our people back and I'll say, well, how's it going online? Oh, you know, our online numbers are good.
Well, how's your giving? Oh, it's steady. And what I, I, you know, we've got to rewire our brains a little bit because we seem to think that only people in the room. And that's just not true. The people online, if they're fully [00:36:00] participating in. And I think that offering is a good indicator. I don't invest in something that doesn't mean something to me or that I don't have some level of involvement in.
So one of the suggestions I've been making, and this is also in the. Is that churches bring back the concept of the him board? I don't know if you remember the old hymn board
Tony: in the Catholic church. I grew up in, we, it was like, it, it was, it was the stats,
Jason: man. Yes. You know, so we would always have, they would have the hymn numbers, but I would also have last week's attendance and it would have last week's offering on it.
I would suggest to any church that's struggling with morale or who doesn't know how to measure that. You start telling that whole tell the whole story, not just the story of the people in the room. So I would encourage churches to think about looking at the numbers from Sunday when worship is over until Saturday night, before worship begins and put those up on.
Quote him board, you know, your digital headboard. If you're gonna put that on the screen tell the story, the offering [00:37:00] your people in the room don't have access to that stuff. And they just look around and see there. Aren't very many people here or as many people as there used to be. So I think we have to help people see everyone.
I also think that we need to measure what's happening in our district. Opportunities, how many people are coming to Bible study or involved in small groups. So I think that's maybe a better indicator of the health of our church. Then how many people show up in a room and, and sit there? So for me, it would be a combination of people participating in mission, people participating in Bible study and small groups give given.
And then attendance in the room and online, you know, that's, that's how I would really see it. And I guess my final thought on, on just attendance patterns these days, I just actually had a coaching call right before our conversation today. And I had a pastor kind of lamenting what was happening with attendance and especially children's ministry.[00:38:00]
Everyone's trying to figure out, like, how do you get kids to come back to Sunday? And, you know, the, the reality is and a bit of our, our time when we were living in the same city, we would do some workout stuff together. I was never as good as you at P90X, but you know, getting up at an ungodly hour and doing that.
But the reality is that when you are doing something like that, when you get in the rhythm of. You don't want to get out of the rhythm. So it's hard on the first day and it's hard on the second day, but you know, when we were in that rhythm and you know, it was like, we're doing it three days a week and I didn't want to miss because I was in the rhythm of it.
But if you miss a day and then you miss two days and you're like, well, I'll start next week. And the next week I'm busy. I'll start the week after that. And once you get out of the. It is so much harder to get back in the rhythm. Same with dieting. You know, it's like once you get in the rhythm of it, you want to stay in it.
And I think for, with some folks, they've had two years out of the rhythm [00:39:00] of going to church or going to Sunday school or whatever, and it's easier to grab my cup of coffee and sit in my PJ's and and answer Facebook while I'm watching. Maybe I'm not worshiping, I'm just watching worship on TV.
So I think we've got to start to think about how do we. Re-engage people in that rhythm and it may mean doing more event based. Like, I think people have a longing for connection right now. They miss being together. But you may have to make things a little special. So maybe, I don't know. Spit balling here, maybe it's that you do you know, a bigger Sunday school thing twice a month, not every week just to get people back in the rhythm and you increase the frequency of that until you walk alongside them.
Right. That's what you're saying. Yeah, exactly. So things have definitely changed in the way. And I know. It's it's, it's really hard for us to wrap our heads around. I have another pastor friend who was lamenting to me in a phone call a couple of weeks ago.[00:40:00] He was telling me about his daughter who in 2020 started college and had to start online.
And in 2021 campuses open back up and he's like, are you ready? You ready to go live the college experience? And his daughter was like, why would I do. I can stay here with my family and eat out of your refrigerator and not have to leave all my friends and I don't have to spend as much money and she could not wrap her head around.
What the value of the in-person experience was because she only knew the online experience. And we all grew up in the in-person experience and can't wrap our heads around how someone could have a meaningful experience in a living room or, you know, in a hotel room or whatever it might be. So it's, it's rewiring our brains and I think it's also kind of lamenting that change has happened and, and we've got to get used to that.
Tony: And I, I think one of the realities is your metaphor about being about the, the sports is a, is a great one that really parallels [00:41:00] the church pretty closely because one of the things that I hear from pastors a lot, and I'm sure you do too, is this lament about the attendance, but it's not because we, we overly care about attendance.
Right. But I didn't and most pastors, I know didn't get into this. To be in a room that feels dead, you know? And, and whether that's nobody's fault, that's nobody to blame. Right. But, but just like the athletes say, man, it's different with the fans are here. Like it's a different energy, it's a different energy.
And, and, and that, I think that is a tension as we approach this stuff that we're going to have to deal with. And that every pastor myself included when I was pastoring, a local church have to wrestle with man not having people here hurts my heart. Yeah, because I want the, I want the body to connect now.
I want the body to connect online too. Right. But I want the body to connect with me in person here. Right. Like I it's, it [00:42:00] sounds so needy, but it is, it's a very real, I mean, I guess there, there has to be a reason why Jesus came in person. He could have done everything from a cloud, right? Like he could have thrown lightning bolts and healed people or whatever.
Right. Like I'm getting my gods mixed up, but I'm being funny. I know my theology sound guys. It's fine. But like
Jason: you're into Greek gods and stuff, man.
Tony: Right, right. There's a reason Jesus came in person. Cause if it does feel different, but we can't throw away the online
Jason: Well, and, and, and another passage I've or part of what I've talked about in scripture is that you know, before the holy spirit, you had to go to the temple and then the holy spirit on Pentecost arrived in and resides in all of us.
And so we don't have to go to a place to experience. God. That's right. It's funny because for, we used to talk a lot about how the church is not the building. In fact Tony, when we started working together at your former church, your tagline was church without walls know it's [00:43:00] right. You put that to the test.
Haven't we? We have and you know, I mean, as somebody who. Makes my living a large percentage of my living as a speaker, man, I miss standing on a stage in front of, you know, 150 people and listening to them, laugh for a watch, those aha moments or whatever. I mean, it's been a huge shift for me to have to watch chat or watching a zoom room.
People nod and it's, it's so different. I, I would take in-person all day long over online. But. I have also heard great stories about transformation and the way this has opened the gospel up to people who wouldn't walk through a physical walk, into a physical church. I had I just, I could share story after story but we cannot one of the, one of the big one of the things I hear a lot about.
From critics about online worship is that it's not embodied worship, [00:44:00] that we're not physically in the presence and in all of that. And in the book I share an article, I think, from a Catholic. Professor a woman who talks about how you have to have an embodied experience to worship online as well.
You have to have your fingers to touch the keyboard. You have to have your eyes to see it. You have to have your ears to hear it. And she actually shared that. She said for me, it allows me to have an even fuller body experience because I would like to dance during the Gloria poetry. But if I did that in the Catholic church, they they'd take me out of there in a, an, a white jacket that zips in the back.
You know so again, I'm not, I'm not a proponent of either, or I really do think that we need to be in person. There's sorry. Yeah, we need to be both in. One, one last thing I'll say here is that I am working with the church in North Carolina who told me a story about how someone was so engaged in their online worship that they drove.
From Tallahassee up to [00:45:00] North Carolina to join the church. They're not moving to North Carolina. But they joined the church and they are participating through ties and offering an online worship and Bible study. But then they have found ways to get involved in their local area in mission and other opportunities like that.
So it's, it's a different way of thinking. We've got to wrap our heads around. And I would just say that for folks who say relationships, can't be real. If they're online you probably haven't been paying all that much attention to social media because they're, you know, I know more about what's going on in your life right now because we're friends on Facebook.
Then when we lived in the same city and we saw each other regularly, you know, that doesn't mean, I know that we have the same level of intimacy and in a relationship that we would, but, but there is a real connection that is.
Tony: I love that. And I, I think more than anything, it's just important for the church to recognized That, that it requires some intentionality [00:46:00] if we want to build the relationship.
And attractional church I believe is, is on its last leg. Like we're not attractional church is not going to be the thing that brings a whole bunch of people in, but but relational church could be, and this is it's really what I hear you saying. And I, and I appreciate that. Jason, I know that my my listeners are going to want to pick up a copy of the book.
They're going to want to follow you and learn more about your ministry. Where's the best place to get the book and, and B follow you on, on all the
Jason: interwebs. Sure. Well, they can get the book. In fact, we have a special code for listeners of the podcast at invite resources.com. And this is a little complicated, but I want you to think both in B.
Special 10, except for B a and S the first letter of special B a and S are all capital B a S all capital B a S special 10. We'll get you [00:47:00] 10% off of
Tony: love that we'll link to that in the show notes, too. We'll link to invite resources and I'll, I'll make sure we get the the code in there. So you don't have to overthink it too much.
If you're on the treadmill right now or driving, don't worry about writing it down. I got you covered it's in the
Jason: show. There you go. And then I'm at midnight oil production or pro D on, on Twitter, although I don't tweet but you can find me on facebook@facebook.com forward slash midnight oil productions and also on Instagram at.
Instagram.com forward slash midnight oil or no, I'm sorry. At midnight. All productions. Goodness. I'm not very good. That's fine. We're going
Tony: to link to all of it in the show notes, you know, you're, you're almost to relational. It'll be online.
Okay. So last question. I always love to ask people and you know, this cause you've listened to the podcast before, but it's an advice question except I get to name the day and time where you you get to go back and give yourself one piece of advice. And so what [00:48:00] I would like to do is I would like to take you back to your first day as a solo preneur at midnight oil productions, you're the only you bought out your other partner.
It's just you and literally burning the midnight oil. Cause I know that's when you do most of your great creative work. If you could go back all those years ago, look yourself in the eye and give yourself one piece of advice. What would it be,
Jason: Believe in yourself and know that it is going to be okay.
In those, in those days after having been a partner for so long, I didn't know if I had anything of value for anyone because I'd been tied to someone else and I had lots and lots of doubts and And gosh, God has done things well beyond my greatest imaginings of what could be. So I would tell myself that
Tony: I love it.
I love it. I love it. And I'm thankful for your time today, man, your generosity [00:49:00] and for your friendship over the years, it always means a lot to me. And I love the fact that we get to connect and, and what God's doing in your life.
Jason: Hey, thank you so much. I'm proud of you and what you've done through the podcast.
I remember when you were just talking about it and you've come so far and grateful for your friendship too. So thanks for the chance to be on the podcast. I told you,
Tony: you guys, what a great conversation. I love Jason's heart. I love how he's wired. I just love his intentionality around online and in-person worship.
Jason's been walking alongside the local church. For decades and his expertise has been such a help to so many as always friends. I'm extremely thankful for the opportunity to gather with you today. I hope that this conversation was a gift to you and helps you grow a little closer to Christ. Also, remember if you want to follow Jesus, you must be willing to move.
